More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

39 minutes ago, wagonman said:

Read & Son, the Salisbury based coal factor

 

I expect you've got this one, on the Lickey c. 1895 (I'm fairly sure going down, loaded):

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of Midland Railway Study Centre Item 60912.]

 

I think the wagon to the left of Read & Son is G.R. Morland of Gloucester [see I. Pope, Private Owner Wagons of Gloucestershire (Lightmoor Press, 2006), p. 50]. On a high-res scan or print (available from the Kidderminster Railway Museum) one would be able to read the number but even zooming in on the thumbnail one can see that the brake V-hanger is not the Gloucester shape so this is probably one of the four Harrison & Camm wagons Nos. 10-13 of May 1893. That fits with the given date of the photo, since Moreland's first Gloucester wagons were obtained in July 1897. The Gloucester wagons were written up Empty to Hoyland Colliery Nr Barnsley, so assuming the same was the case for the earlier wagons, that's circumstantial evidence that the Read & Son wagon has come from the same colliery, or at least one in the Barnsley coalfield - @wagonman would that fit with what is known of Read & Son's trading?

 

I might be wrong and the train is going up, in which case it might be broken up and re-marshalled at Washwood Heath and the Read & Son wagon might be off to somewhere nearer at hand such as Cannock or Kingsbury, spoiling my little theory. I can't quite see sign of a banker on the other train...

[drduncan]

On 30/12/2021 at 18:48, Mikkel said:

 

I hope you are taking notes, as there will be an exam at the end.

I think Stephen has been taking notes for all of us….

[drduncan]

I noticed that there is. Colin Ashby MR sleeper wagon on that auction site:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/COLIN-ASHBY-MIDLAND-RAILWAY-FIXED-SIDE-SLEEPER-WAGON-KIT-/384650268311?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0
 

(No interest as I do GWR but was looking for a Kirk Monster…)

 

Duncan

[Regularity]

55 minutes ago, drduncan said:

I think Stephen has been taking notes for all of us….

That’s because he is setting the test…

[Compound2632]

42 minutes ago, Regularity said:

That’s because he is setting the test…

 

You can be sure that the questions will be ones to which I do not know the answer but would like to. I've found this thread very helpful in that respect, so thank you and slightly belated New Year wishes to all who read and post here!

[Compound2632]

13 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Empty to Hoyland Colliery Nr Barnsley

 

There's no entry for Hoyland or Hoyland Silkstone Colliery on the Durham Mining Museum database, possibly because it closed as early as 1928. I've found one photo that clearly shows one of the colliery's wagons, even though not all the lettering is clear:

 

 

[Embedded link to Pinterest.] 

 

The OS 25" map shows that the colliery had coke ovens, so would be sending coke out, hence the raves.

[Asterix2012]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

There's no entry for Hoyland or Hoyland Silkstone Colliery on the Durham Mining Museum database, possibly because it closed as early as 1928. I've found one photo that clearly shows one of the colliery's wagons, even though not all the lettering is clear:

 

 

[Embedded link to Pinterest.] 

 

The OS 25" map shows that the colliery had coke ovens, so would be sending coke out, hence the raves.

That’s a nice view of the colliery layout as well.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Asterix2012 said:

That’s a nice view of the colliery layout as well.

 

The colliery site is split across two OS 25" sheets; I think we're at the south end looking north along one of the lines of coke ovens: https://maps.nls.uk/view/125649827.

[John-Miles]

21 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That's cheating! I read somewhere that S.W. Johnson regretted that the British railways weren't to Irish standard gauge - 5'3" - as that would give just a bit more space for larger bearing surfaces all round, larger diameter cylinders, and bigger steam chests.

In Engineering there are always compromises and whatever gauge you choose there will be factors that mitigate against it. The one that really gets me is that Brunel is a genius because he chose a gauge of 7 feet plus a bit and this is better because it is wider than standard gauge, which begs the question if someone else came along and chose a gauge of say 9 feet, would they be a greater genius (while bankrupting the shareholders). The standard gauge has stood the test of time. It was intended for trains with a maximum speed of 30 mph and now is used by trains doing almost 10 times that speed. It has served us well.

Edited January 3, 2022 by John-Miles
clarification

[Compound2632]

Webb tenders as built had an elegant curved bulkhead at the rear of the coal space:

 

 

I had posted my "LNWR train set" photo to the LNWR Society Facebook group, with the comment that Lucknow's tender was going to be fitted with coal rails to make the engine contemporaneous with the Ratio 50 ft corridor carriages. That elicited a comment from Mike Williams as to the necessity of replacing the curved bulkhead with a rectangular one; he provided various photos illustrating this feature. I was at first a little sceptical, wondering whether this bulkhead might be a Whale innovation (most of Mike's photos were LMS period). Clear photos of the tops of Webb tenders dating from before Webb's retirement are like the proverbial chickens' dentures. However, I was convinced by looking again at the Mutascope & Biograph film of Jeanie Deans on the cod "Irish Mail"; the plate can be seen between the coal rails on the tender of the photo-bombing Coal Engine, at about 2:09. (That also gives a clear view of the fire-iron brackets, which were rendered redundant once coal rails were fitted, as the fireman could no longer climb over the tender top to reach them.) This rectangular plate is not provided for in the kit but fortunately there is a bit of spare material of about the right width, so I cut and filed and made my own:

 

 

I have a feeling this tender is going to be well-coaled, to hide my bodgery and messy soldering...

 

You can just see that I've followed @Northroader's suggestion of a piece of wire to form the top of the curved part of the flare; I'll come back later with some low-melt solder to fill the remaining gaps; for the moment, don't look too closely...

Edited May 4, 2022 by Compound2632

[billbedford]

On 02/01/2022 at 18:21, Compound2632 said:

 

That's cheating! I read somewhere that S.W. Johnson regretted that the British railways weren't to Irish standard gauge - 5'3" - as that would give just a bit more space for larger bearing surfaces all round, larger diameter cylinders, and bigger steam chests.

 

Well....

 

The Irish gauge was a compromise better Standard Gauge and Indian Gauge. So why not go the whole hog and ask for 5'6"  

Edited January 3, 2022 by billbedford

[Compound2632]

8 hours ago, billbedford said:

The Irish gauge was a compromise better Standard Gauge and Indian Gauge. So why not go the whole hog and ask for 5'6"  

 

Indeed. But I don't know the context of Johnson's remark. He might have been corresponding with someone who was working in Ireland at the time. Or maybe offering moral support to Smith in Japan?

Edited January 4, 2022 by Compound2632

[Penlan]

16 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

That elicited a comment from Mike Williams as to the necessity of replacing the curved bulkhead with a rectangular one; he provided various photos illustrating this feature. I was at first a little sceptical, wondering whether this bulkhead might be a Whale innovation (most of Mike's photos were LMS period). Clear photos of the tops of Webb tenders dating from before Webb's retirement are like the proverbial chickens' dentures. ...

On 31/12/2021 at 16:06, Compound2632 said:

 

Stephen, have a look at the 'Coleham LNWR Shed' photo - Plate 74 in the Society's Photo's of P.W.Pilcher.
The DX on the left, and I think the one in the centre too.
If agreed, I will leave you to post on FB.
.
PS - I don't know why the second frames there, not me Gov'ner

 

Edited January 4, 2022 by Penlan

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Penlan said:

Stephen, have a look at the 'Coleham LNWR Shed' photo - Plate 74 in the Society's Photo's of P.W.Pilcher.
The DX on the left, and I think the one in the centre too.
If agreed, I will leave you to post on FB.

 

Agreed! 1901, four tenders in total, probably all 1,800 gal, all with the rectangular plate - as you say, Special DX, along with an Improved Precedent. The one in the centre the caption author thinks is a Coal Engine rather than an SDX, which I'll agree with as it's got no vac pipe; the one on the right, in front of the Precedent, has a vac pipe so could be an SDX or Cauliflower? In contrast to the Coal Engine in the Jeanie Deans film, the three tenders with backs fully visible have had the fire iron brackets removed, which is one less fiddly detail to have to solder on! Good reference for tender lining - and lack thereof on the tender rear.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Compound2632
Capital P for Precedent.

[Penlan]

[drduncan]

I don’t like the precedent that is being set on this thread. All this LNWR stuff will drive people loco…

Duncan

[drduncan]

Perhaps Stephen will tender a new thread!!  

[Mikkel]

32 minutes ago, drduncan said:

I don’t like the precedent that is being set on this thread. All this LNWR stuff will drive people loco…

Duncan

 

Duncan, we must fight back. Drown them in green! 

 

[Mikkel]

That was a bit flippant, it's been a long day. I come in peace.

 

[Regularity]

47 minutes ago, drduncan said:

I don’t like the precedent that is being set on this thread. All this LNWR stuff will drive people loco…

Duncan

I think it’s just an experiment, although I hope it isn’t a problem.

[Compound2632]

11 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

 

Duncan, we must fight back. Drown them in green! 

 

 

Ah yes, Dean Goods...

 

I will allow anything with Indian red frames. I'll even allow that 2-4-0 because it's trying so hard to look like a Midland engine.

 

2 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

That was a bit flippant, it's been a long day. I come in peace.

 

Beware [insert nationals of choice] bearing gifts!

[Argos]

2 hours ago, Regularity said:

I think it’s just an experiment, although I hope it isn’t a problem.

 

No......it's a precursor to better things.....

[Northroader]

On 03/01/2022 at 18:35, Compound2632 said:

 

You can just see that I've followed @Northroader's suggestion of a piece of wire to form the top of the curved part of the flare; I'll come back later with some low-melt solder to fill the remaining gaps; for the moment, don't look too closely...

 

Stephen, you may/ may not be familiar with these, termed “scrapers”, used in engineering circles on soft metals. I have seen them used to bed in a brass/ white metal bearing on to a wagon Journal, so not off thread at all (would I ever do such a thing?) The one that I use the most is the round one, and it would be handy, if you wanted to get some of the surplus solder off your tender, or improve the shape of the corner flares.

 

[Compound2632]

10 minutes ago, Northroader said:

Stephen, you may/ may not be familiar with these, termed “scrapers”, used in engineering circles on soft metals. I have seen them used to bed in a brass/ white metal bearing on to a wagon Journal, so not off thread at all (would I ever do such a thing?) The one that I use the most is the round one, and it would be handy, if you wanted to get some of the surplus solder off your tender, or improve the shape of the corner flares.

 

Thanks, those do look useful. I've been using a round needle file on the outside (concave face) of the flare but have nothing to deal with the pool of solder on the inside (convex face) - which is why it's rather annoying that the photos suggest that the rectangular plate was effective and there was no coal spillage onto the very rear part of the tank top! 

 

I wonder if I could trouble you to point me in the direction of a supplier or part number? a quick look through Squires' catalogue hasn't revealed anything quite answering the description.

[Northroader]

Just had a dig in Squires and Eileen’s.. nothing. Do a search “engineers half round curved end hand scraper”, there’s Proops, Faithfull, Cromwell, Zoro.