More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[kitpw]

26 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

but have nothing to deal with the pool of solder on the inside (convex face)

.....you could try one of the many types of rifflers:  they turn up on ebay (e.g. "Vintage-Grobet-Vallorbe-Swiss-Riffler-Files").  New, they are very expensive - see https://www.hswalsh.com/categories/150mm-swiss-riffler-files.  I was lucky enought to inherit a handful of them from a silversmith (my mother-in-law) and have added a few over the years from Walsh in Hatton Garden.  I have used a handheld Dremel type drill with a small burr in it for those internal curves and angles  - again, Walsh do them but I prefer the rifflers which I find easier to control.

 

Kit PW

Edited January 4, 2022 by kitpw

[Jol Wilkinson]

Not the usual scraper but these were given to me years ago by John Hayes. Made from old hacksaw blades they are handed and great for removing excess solder from joints, etc. The yellow one is a chisel for cutting through etch tags.

 

For jobs like smoothing soldered curved corners I use a selection of cheap Chinese needle files

 

 

 

 

[Dave Hunt]

My method for shaping and finishing curved tender corner flares after building them up from wire, brass and solder as already described in this forum is to use small dental burrs in a Dremel, as kitpw describes, then finish off with pieces of various diameter dowels with strips of wet & dry paper wrapped round them. Takes a while but generally works well. Sometimes I also use car body filler to get the general shape.   

 

As far as scruffy soldering is concerned, Stephen, I make extensive use of scrapers and fibreglass pencils.

 

Dave

[billbedford]

5 hours ago, Mikkel said:

That was a bit flippant, it's been a long day. I come in peace.

 

 

With a load of empty fish boxes?

[drduncan]

14 hours ago, Mikkel said:

That was a bit flippant, it's been a long day. I come in peace.

 

Er, how much Danegeld did it cost us this time…

D

[Mikkel]

Don't blame me, it was Macron's suggestion.

 

Anyway, just a tribute to the LNWR. Driver's name on the side. Can't see how the boxes are secured. There's a photo of the first GWR motor lorry with a similar towering load of fish boxes. But that at least has a supporting frame and a net at the top to stabilise things. 

 

Anyway, on the subject of wagons have we seen this before. It's from the Getty archives as usual.

 

 

Caption: Railyard damage in London during World War One, circa 1916. Source: Getty images, embedding permitted. 

 

Nice illustration of roping for timber loads (if you enlarge it). 

 

An accompanying photo here.

 

[Miss Prism]

Note the 16" G W on the 4-planker.

[Siberian Snooper]

Does anyone have the running numbers for the D299 in MR and LMS days and ditto for the Slaters 3 plank dropside wagon. 

 

Many thanks, in advance. 

[kitpw]

1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

Railyard damage in London during World War One

McGaw & Co was on Leake Street which runs under the west end of Waterloo Station.  The area shown in the photo is now platforms 20 to 24 and covered by the "International Terminal".  I haven't looked recently, but I think the McGaw building is still there.

 

Kit PW

Swan Hill - https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blogs/blog/2502-swan-hill

[Compound2632]

7 hours ago, Mikkel said:

Anyway, just a tribute to the LNWR. Driver's name on the side.

 

This has been discussed elsewhere. F.H. Dent's name is seen on many LNWR vehicles in London; if I remember correctly he was the London Goods Agent, later General Goods Manager. I think the story was that there was a London byelaw that vehicles had to carry their owner's name and this had to be an individual rather than an anonymous corporation.

 

7 hours ago, Mikkel said:

Anyway, on the subject of wagons have we seen this before. It's from the Getty archives as usual.

 

The four-plank dropside wagon furthest to the left looks North British to me - confirmed by just a hint of an N? The Caledonian mineral wagon looks overloaded; moreover the lower ends of the planks are resting on the end door, which was a big loading no-no. Roping of both is a bit ropey; the instruction was to put a rope over at the point where the top of the load was level with the rave of the wagon [see pp. 27-28 here, courtesy of the Barrowmore Model Railway Group's website]. The presence of these Scottish wagons poses a dating problem. General pooling of unfitted open wagons of three planks or more was instituted on 2 January 1917, with Scottish end-door wagons only included from 2 April 1918. Prior to this, polling had only been between groups of companies - GCR / GER / GNR from 13 December 1915 (or 13 - either Atkins or Tatlow has a misprint); GWR / LYR / LNWR / MR / NER from 2 April 1916; and CR / GSWR / NBR from 5 June 1916. One is forced to the conclusion that the photo cannot have been taken earlier than April 1918; as far as I can make out there was only one Zeppelin raid on London after this date, on 19 May 1918.

 

5 hours ago, kitpw said:

McGaw & Co was on Leake Street which runs under the west end of Waterloo Station.  

 

Which ought to enable the date to be established, though not from the limited information on Zeppelin raids I've found online.

 

The Caledonian wagon has self-contained buffers so I presume it's a conversion from dumb buffers. 

 

Any offers on No. 4823, P or R? Rhymney seems most likely?

 

6 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

Note the 16" G W on the 4-planker.

 

From a number of photographs that can be with confidence dated to before 1920, this seems to be the standard style for four-plank wagons in the 25" G W period (happy to PM you some examples). No. 49027 is from old series Lot 556 (c. 1890?) but has gained oil axleboxes and a sheet bar. The is also a triangular gusset on the solebar below the centre-line of the door which I think must also be an addition.

 

Edited January 5, 2022 by Compound2632
apostrophe inserted

[Craigw]

1 hour ago, Miss Prism said:

Note the 16" G W on the 4-planker.

 

I think it is closer to 18" 

 

I thought I could be clever and use 16" lettering on my 4 plank opens but it is fractionally too small - the G and the W extend to near the bottom of the second plank which 16" lettering will not do 

 

It is also fractionally too large for the 3 plank wagons!

 

EDIT: Just added a photo of a 3 and 4 plank wagon (David Geen Kit and ABS kit) finished in the pre `920 livery using Fox 16" letters. Study of the photo posted by Mikkel suggests to me that it is slightly undersize for the 4 plank wagon.

 

I'm going to live with it though!

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

Edited January 5, 2022 by Craigw

[Compound2632]

31 minutes ago, Siberian Snooper said:

Does anyone have the running numbers for the D299 in MR and LMS days and ditto for the Slaters 3 plank dropside wagon. 

 

Midland wagons were not renumbered in LMS days and generally retained their Midland numberplates - so many more survive than from other pre-grouping companies. Full records of Midland wagon numbering have not survived but I have been collecting Midland wagon numbers and have plenty of bona fide D299 and D305 numbers; the easiest thing would be to supply you with my sheets of print-at-home numberplates. The sources are chiefly photographs, including the photographs that were the sources for the numbers given in Midland Wagons, though I have not traced the source of quite all of those. 

[Compound2632]

On 04/01/2022 at 17:15, Mikkel said:

Duncan, we must fight back. Drown them in green! 

 

Like this, you mean:

 

 

or even this:

 

 

Edited May 4, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[Miss Prism]

11 minutes ago, Craigw said:

I think it is closer to 18" 

 

You're right. I knew there was something about that pic that was bugging me. The lettering covers two and a half planks, which is approximately 17.25". (The following extract is of a 5-planker, but I believe the 4-plank dimensions are the same.)

 

 

 

[Jol Wilkinson]

10 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Like this, you mean:

 

 

or even this:

 

 

 

I researched LNWR Southern Division green and red liveries when I wrote the instructions for the London Road Models LNWR Large Bloomer kit.

 

"The McConnell Bloomers were painted, that much we know, but what colour? In Locomotives of the LNWR Southern Division, Harry Jack quotes references that state the colour used by the Southern Division on the earliest Bloomers was variously referred to as Brunswick Green, Light Brunswick Green or Bright Green, whatever those meant. This colour would presumably have continued in use and been applied to the Large Bloomers. Britain’s Railway Liveries by E. F. Carter provides a sample of a colour that Ken Wood of the L&NWR Society has identified as being very close to Humbrol No. 2. However, this colour would look a little dark on a 4mm model so something very slightly lighter might be more accurate. Lining was plain black, usually in square panels on the cab side, tenders sides and back. There would three on the tender sides, within the riveted sections.

In 1860 some locos were painted in a “dark red” and it is thought it would have been applied to several Large Bloomers. Ahrons quotes the colour as brick red, rather darker than LMS red. However, allowing for the effect of colours on small scale models, a lightly shade would be more accurate so that “LMS red” would probably be a good choice. The colour of the lining is unclear is referred to as a light colour, which may have been white or light grey. The oft mentioned “vermillion” scheme has been shown to be an inaccurate description, but in the way of such things, it became referred by several sources who accepted the original description,  that it developed a life of it’s own."

[Compound2632]

18 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

I researched LNWR Southern Division green and red liveries when I wrote the instructions for the London Road Models LNWR Large Bloomer kit.

 

But, erm, Jol, the picture is of a Ramsbottom Lady of the Lake in Northern Division green...

[Asterix2012]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

The four-plank dropside wagon furthest to the left looks North British to me - confirmed by just a hint of an N? The Caledonian mineral wagon looks overloaded; moreover the lower ends of the planks are resting on the end door, which was a big loading no-no. Roping of both is a bit ropey; the instruction was to put a rope over at the point where the top of the load was level with the rave of the wagon [see pp. 27-28 here, courtesy of the Barrowmore Model Railway Group's website]. The presence of these Scottish wagons poses a dating problem. General pooling of unfitted open wagons of three planks or more was instituted on 2 January 1917, with Scottish end-door wagons only included from 2 April 1918. Prior to this, polling had only been between groups of companies - GCR / GER / GNR from 13 December 1915 (or 13 - either Atkins or Tatlow has a misprint); GWR / LYR / LNWR / MR / NER from 2 April 1916; and CR / GSWR / NBR from 5 June 1916. One is forced to the conclusion that the photo cannot have been taken earlier than April 1918; as far as I can make out there was only one Zeppelin raid on London after this date, on 19 May 1918.

 

 

Which ought to enable the date to be established, though not from the limited information on Zeppelin raids I've found online.

 

 

Regarding the pooling of wagons, is it possible that this could have been consignments from Scotland?  Which would make the 2916 date more feasible.

 

Also in wartime would the rules have been rigidly followed or would expediency apply.

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, Asterix2012 said:

Also in wartime would the rules have been rigidly followed or would expediency apply.

 

The whole point of wagon pooling was that it was a measure of expediency, relaxing the rigid rules that had previously applied. 

 

9 minutes ago, Asterix2012 said:

is it possible that this could have been consignments from Scotland?

 

I suppose so but that does seem unlikely. One would have to explain the presence of the Great Western and Rhymney (?) wagons too...

[Andy Hayter]

@Mikkel  Securing of the boxes:

 

These were almost certainly designed with a pair of cross slats under the bottom of the box.  This held the base securely but also and importantly was a snug fit into the top of a box placed underneath.  Piles of boxes could then be moved as a single unit relatively securely.

 

Looking at the picture some may be more secure than others, but the offset in some piles might just be because of where the slat was placed in relation to the base.

 

Think of it as 19th Century Lego - a concept you might be familiar with.

[Jol Wilkinson]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

But, erm, Jol, the picture is of a Ramsbottom Lady of the Lake in Northern Division green...

Stephen,

 

according to Harry Jack, whose RCTS book Locomotives of the LNWR Southern Division (excellent publication and the main source of information for this period), most Southern Division locos would have still been green when Ramsbottom took over in1862. The lining was black in the Bury period  and continued through McConnel's time although changed to some lighter colour(s) later (black boiler bands were probably retained).

 

McConnel painted some locos red in 1860 and based on Harry Jack's book this is what they would have looked like.

 

 

 

I regret I can't credit the builder/owner of this model or who provided the photos as I have forgotten.

 

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

@Jol Wilkinson: sorry, I think I'm being slow. What you're trying to say is, I could model the LNWR and have red (rather than green) engines!

[Siberian Snooper]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Midland wagons were not renumbered in LMS days and generally retained their Midland numberplates - so many more survive than from other pre-grouping companies. Full records of Midland wagon numbering have not survived but I have been collecting Midland wagon numbers and have plenty of bona fide D299 and D305 numbers; the easiest thing would be to supply you with my sheets of print-at-home numberplates. The sources are chiefly photographs, including the photographs that were the sources for the numbers given in Midland Wagons, though I have not traced the source of quite all of those. 

 

Many thanks, any info would be useful. From your quote, I take it that the Midland only had plated numbers, which from what I can gather from the Slaters kit instructions were attached to the solebars, did the LMS continue this tradition or did they go with numbers painted on the wagon side? I'm a GW modeller, but I'm trying to make a range of pre and early post group wagons from other companies.

 

 

[Compound2632]

16 minutes ago, Siberian Snooper said:

Many thanks, any info would be useful. From your quote, I take it that the Midland only had plated numbers, which from what I can gather from the Slaters kit instructions were attached to the solebars, did the LMS continue this tradition or did they go with numbers painted on the wagon side? I'm a GW modeller, but I'm trying to make a range of pre and early post group wagons from other companies.

 

The Midland had only numberplates up to 1917, when a change was made to additionally painting the number on the bottom plank towards the left, underneath the M on 5-plank wagons. The LMS continued this style. For 3-plank wagons, the LMS painted the number on the bottom plank at the left hand end; what I can't find is a photo of one in Midland livery with the number painted on. I'll PM you a bit later today. (If I forget, prompt me!) Vans had had the number painted on the door from an earlier date, as far as I can work out, from when they started to have the Initials M R on the door, mid-1890s.

 

BTW there's an article in the most recent Model Railway Journal about some pitfalls to avoid when building the 4 mm scale Slaters kits...

 

Are you doing 4 mm or 7 mm?

 

 

Edited January 5, 2022 by Compound2632

[Northroader]

The LMS did do cast build plates on wagons as well as the numberplates. They also had an habit of backdating these, I had one some time ago, I forget the date, but it was well back into the Midland era, for “LMS Bromsgrove”.

[Northroader]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

@Jol Wilkinson: sorry, I think I'm being slow. What you're trying to say is, I could model the LNWR and have red (rather than green) engines!