More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

Trouble is, it doesn't result in a balanced stud at a single period!

[Compound2632]

48 minutes ago, Northroader said:

The LMS did do cast build plates on wagons as well as the numberplates. They also had an habit of backdating these, I had one some time ago, I forget the date, but it was well back into the Midland era, for “LMS Bromsgrove”.

 

Yes, I think that the LMS also put the RCH standard D-shaped plates on at least some pre-grouping stock from other constituents, with the wagon's new number.

[Jol Wilkinson]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

@Jol Wilkinson: sorry, I think I'm being slow. What you're trying to say is, I could model the LNWR and have red (rather than green) engines!

Stephen,

 

no, I wasn't trying to say that, just that there were some LNWR locos over which lovers of red engines could get excited. These were all pre F W Webb's black livery introduced from 1873,  with the exception of  Greater Britain as shown in Northroader's post above.

 

To model LNWR red engines of that period you would have to scratchbuild nearly everything, the Large Bloomer and Cornwall kits being the only possible ones available in 4mm  AFAIK. The only loco specifically mentioned in Harry Jack's book for which a photo exists shows a Small Bloomer seeming inthe red livery was taken in 1861.

 

Enough of this diversion, back to your wagons.

 

Jol

[queensquare]

25 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

..........that there were some LNWR locos over which lovers of red engines could get excited. 

 

Ive always really fancied a Claughton in pre 1928 LMS livery ....... just saying !

 

Jerry

[Mikkel]

9 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

This has been discussed elsewhere. F.H. Dent's name is seen on many LNWR vehicles in London; if I remember correctly he was the London Goods Agent, later General Goods Manager. I think the story was that there was a London byelaw that vehicles had to carry their owner's name and this had to be an individual rather than an anonymous corporation.

 

Thanks Stephen, had a look and found one other LNWR vehicle with F. H. Dent on it, but also one saying I.T. Williams. Perhaps the latter was another agent.

 

 

9 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

The Caledonian mineral wagon looks overloaded; moreover the lower ends of the planks are resting on the end door, which was a big loading no-no. Roping of both is a bit ropey; the instruction was to put a rope over at the point where the top of the load was level with the rave of the wagon [see pp. 27-28 here, courtesy of the Barrowmore Model Railway Group's website].

 

Tut-tut, written instructions not being followed to the letter. Just like me at work 

 

 

7 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

@Mikkel  Securing of the boxes:

 

These were almost certainly designed with a pair of cross slats under the bottom of the box.  This held the base securely but also and importantly was a snug fit into the top of a box placed underneath.  Piles of boxes could then be moved as a single unit relatively securely.

 

Looking at the picture some may be more secure than others, but the offset in some piles might just be because of where the slat was placed in relation to the base.

 

Think of it as 19th Century Lego - a concept you might be familiar with.

 

Thanks Andy, I can see how that would help keep things somewhat stable. Useful to know when modelling such a load too, which is a project on the list. 

 

 

[jamie92208]

2 hours ago, queensquare said:

 

Ive always really fancied a Claughton in pre 1928 LMS livery ....... just saying !

 

Jerry

I've gotva part completed one for a prototype that was modifued to run over the Settle and Carlisle. David Andrews did me a special that included the ROD tender along with some etchescofvLNWR style tender brake gear.   One day I will actually finish it. 

 

Jamie 

[Compound2632]

There is a danger of all this locomotive stuff getting out of hand. While hunting for overhead views of Webb tenders I came across this useful view of a Class A at Coleham, 1903 or later on account of the middle lamp socket, and I think a 2,000 gal tender. Rather usefully, the L&NWR Society's Zenfolio site also includes an enlargement of the wagons in the background. I believe this photo has been discussed previously in a thread on Shropshire PO wagons. The Coppice Colliery wagon is interesting, steel framed and with the lettering "Cannock" freshened up. There's an interesting selection of wagons from the two home railways - a D32 or D33 in the two-tone livery and an outside-framed mink; a number of Great Western 4-plank opens, of the two on the left loaded with round timber, one with cast plates, the other not; coupled up to them a LNWR D1 - not a GWR 1-plank,it has the cut-away ends to the headstocks. The sheeted wagon next to the Coppice Colliery wagon piques my interest, as there appears to be a single brake V-hanger mounted on the inside face of the solebar, which usually indicates both-sides brake levers with a cross-shaft; I can't make out any brake blocks on this side. 

 

But of course the real reason for mentioning this photo is the ubiquitous pair of Midland D299s, penetrating rival territory. Here's a couple more, inveigling themselves into the very of the Great Western:

 

 

This is a crop from a photo @Mikkel sent me, to illustrate the tops of GW Dean tenders (oddly enough). I'm afraid I can't remember where it is - possibly Exeter? In the full photo, there is also a dumb-buffered ex-PO wagon in Midland colours; possibly two.

 

 

Edited October 5, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[Mikkel]

The photo is in Russell Vol 1 page 81. He says it's Worcester shed. His date is 1906 but for various reasons we agreed it is probably earlier. I think we were discussing the box on the DG tender.

 

 

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

The photo is in Russell Vol 1 page 81. He says it's Worcester shed. 

 

Not so far off Midland territory as I had thought - Worcester being well-served by Midland trains on the Stoke Works loop off the Birmingham & Gloucester main line and also the stepping-off point for Hereford and the South Wales line.

 

I think there were a couple of other photos you sent me that were of Exeter.

[Siberian Snooper]

16 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Are you doing 4 mm or 7 mm?

 

4mm.

[Penlan]

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Not so far off Midland territory as I had thought - Worcester being well-served by Midland trains on the Stoke Works loop off the Birmingham & Gloucester main line and also the stepping-off point for Hereford and the South Wales line.

There was a Midland Loco Shed there too (at Worcester).

[Siberian Snooper]

I would like to thank Compound2632 for the help that he has provided in numbering my Slaters, Midland opens.

 

 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Penlan said:

There was a Midland Loco Shed there too (at Worcester).

 

Yes, just along from the Lea & Perrins Worcestershire Sauce Manufactory, which is in Midland Road. Shrub Hill station was joint.

[Compound2632]

The footsteps for the Webb tender have to be soldered up from three rather small pieces of brass, two of which have to be bent to shape. I've not made a very brilliant job of them, so would appreciate any advice on how to go about this sort of job.

 

 

The wheels have arrived; I've realised I should have ordered crankpins too.

 

Also, the kit for the A has arrived, so the pressure's on...

Edited October 5, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[Rail-Online]

On 05/01/2022 at 10:35, Compound2632 said:

 

 

 

Any offers on No. 4823, P or R? Rhymney seems most likely?

 

 

 

 

Or perhaps a Furness 3 planker?

 

Tony

[Regularity]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Also, the kit for the A has arrived, so the pressure's on...

In the case of that loco, 175 lbs/sq.in…

[kitpw]

1 hour ago, Rail-Online said:

Or perhaps a Furness 3 planker?

It is a Furness wagon - there is another Getty picture of the same scene but looking northeast towards Waterloo bridge which shows it quite clearly.  I tried embedding the picture but it didn't work. (I'll have to ask Mikkel how to do it as I'm obviously no good at following Getty's instructions on embedding).

 

Kit PW

Edited January 6, 2022 by kitpw

[Mikkel]

The RMweb software doesn't like the Getty embedding code, so I just upload the photo to the post and provide a direct link to the picture below it.

 

 

[Jol Wilkinson]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

The footsteps for the Webb tender have to be soldered up from three rather small pieces of brass, two of which have to be bent to shape. I've not made a very brilliant job of them, so would appreciate any advice on how to go about this sort of job.

 

 

The wheels have arrived; I've realised I should have ordered crankpins too.

 

Also, the kit for the A has arrived, so the pressure's on...

Stephen,

 

they are another of the frustrating bits of the tender kit. It requires care to get them right, but careful forming of the curved sections and using various temperature solders helps (highest first, etc.). I always build the tenders first on any LRM  LNWR kit, to get the frustrating and boring bit out of the way at the start (once you've built one, etc.).

 

When I designed the 2500 gallon tender for John at LRM I made the major part of the step from one piece with various folds, leaving only the "inner" edge and small step as a combined separate part, which seemed an easier way to do it.  It was my experience of building the George Norton 1800/200 gallon versions that decided many of my design decisions.

 

Some Coal Engines ran with the 2500g tenders later, when the weight of the fully loaded tender was apparently more than the loco.

 

Jol

Edited January 6, 2022 by Jol Wilkinson

[Mark Forrest]

14 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

When I designed the 2500 gallon tender for John at LRM I made the major part of the step from one piece with various folds, leaving only the "inner" edge and small step as a combined separate part, which seemed an easier way to do it.  It was my experience of building the George Norton 1800/200 gallon versions that decided many of my design decisions.

 

Some Coal Engines ran with the 2500g tenders later, when the weight of the fully loaded tender was apparently more than the loco.

 

Jol

Useful and reassuring info as I have loco and tender kits to do Coal Engine 8088 with a 2500 gal tender. I really must find the time to get started on that. 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Mark Forrest said:

Useful and reassuring info as I have loco and tender kits to do Coal Engine 8088 with a 2500 gal tender. I really must find the time to get started on that. 

 

On the other hand my A has a 2,000 gal tender, as appropriate to my period.

[Compound2632]

I've been doing some virtual train-spotting, in D. Hunt, R.J. Essery  and F. James, Midland Engines No. 4 The ‘700’ Class double-frame goods engines (Wild Swan, 2002), which I was browsing in a moment of distraction from work on the Coal Engine. The 700 Class were bigger, heavier, and older than the Coal Engines but not quite as numerous - 329 vs. 500. Comparing the classes as built, the Coal Engines were nominally more powerful, having the same sized cylinders and the same boiler pressure but smaller wheels, though many of the 700 Class got bigger cylinders in Johnson's time. Comparisons are odious and weren't my intention. What I was going to say was, a couple of interesting wagons spots.

 

First p. 26, a W. Beckerlegge photo, at Cheltenham, southbound, between 1903 and 1907. The first wagon behind No. 688 (a Gloucester engine in 1902) is a 6-plank iron or steel-framed PO wagon with Ellis-type axleboxes and internal diagonals à la Gloucester RC&W Co., though there's no other particular reason to connect it with that company. It's the non-brake side we see. Body colour is probably grey, with black ironwork. Lettering on the top two planks is:

CASWE?L AND ?OWDEN

where the initial C might be a G; my guess is L for the first ?. "AND" is in half-height letters. On the bottom two planks at the right:

   NEW ST

BIRMINGHAM

with, on the bottom plank of the door,

No ?17

where ? might be 3 or 9. Both the T of St and o of No are superscript with a line or dot below - a common style. From its position on the planks, this lettering is probably shaded.

But the curious feature is on the bottom four planks at the left-hand end: a circle about three and a half planks in diameter, probably white, with a second circle inside it in a darker colour - but certainly not black. 

 

A bit of digging around quickly turns up Warwickshire Railways with a compilation of coal merchants based at Soho Pool Wharf on the LNWR Soho - Perry Barr line: Caswell and Bowden are listed for 1896-7 and 1903-10. (Also listed are J. Hackett & Co., 1888-1900:

 

 

and William Henry Bowater, 1896-1921:

 

 

[Huntley & Palmers Collection; ignore the spurious date - it's 1890s.])

 

Full commercial details:

 

 

[Patrick Marks, Flickr, embedded link.]

 

and a sample of their advertising:

 

 

[Ebay via Picclick, embedded link.]

 

... which puts me in mind of the old witticism that people in Sutton Coldfield think sex is what coal comes in.

 

The closest I can find to the circle motif on their wagon is this trade card:

 

 

[Birmingham Old Prints, Photographs and Maps, 1600-1900's Facebook group.]

 

This suggests it represents an archery target; confirmed on eventually tracking down a postcard of a wagon; it is their "direct supply trade mark":

 

[Ebay via Picclick, embedded link.]

 

It's rather a question whether this represents the lettering actually carried by one of their wagons - the lack of a fleet number would suggest not - and anyway this card is of later date than the Cheltenham photo - no earlier than 1912, going by the "Established 1862" of their advert above.

 

There's no entry for this firm in the Lightmoor Index, nor a Midland PO registration up to c. 1902 - though registration with the LNWR, whose PO wagon registers have not survived, is perhaps more probable.

 

The second spot, on p.69, is a real scoop. It's a W.L. Good photo, taken on 18 May 1929, of 700 Class No. 2645 piloting a Midland 4F on an up mineral train near Loughborough. The leading vehicle is a rare bird: an ex-Midland steel 30 ton bogie coal wagon; from the queenpost trussing, I believe this is one of the "American" batch, D347 [Midland Wagons Vol. 1, p. 101]. There were seventy of these high capacity wagons [Midland Railway Study Centre Item 77-11822], thirty built by Leeds Forge in 1902 [Locomotive Magazine, Nov. 1902, pp. 191-2], the balance being divided between Birmingham RC&W Co. and whoever the "American" supplier was, but how many from each seems not to be known. The posed view of a Leeds Forge wagon shows it in Loco Coal use:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of Midland Railway Study Centre Item 64098.]

 

In the Loughborough photo, there's a hint of lettering above the M of LMS which could be LOCO - it does seem likely that these high capacity wagons would have remained in loco coal traffic.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[turbos]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

The second spot, on p.69, is a real scoop. It's a W.L. Good photo, taken on 18 May 1929, of 700 Class No. 2645 piloting a Midland 4F on an up mineral train near Loughborough. The leading vehicle is a rare bird: an ex-Midland steel 30 ton bogie coal wagon; from the queenpost trussing, I believe this is one of the "American" batch, D347 [Midland Wagons Vol. 1, p. 101]. There were seventy of these high capacity wagons [Midland Railway Study Centre Item 77-11822], thirty built by Leeds Forge in 1902 [Locomotive Magazine, Nov. 1902, pp. 191-2], the balance being divided between Birmingham RC&W Co. and whoever the "American" supplier was, but how many from each seems not to be known. The posed view of a Leeds Forge wagon shows it in Loco Coal use:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of Midland Railway Study Centre Item 64098.]

 

In the Loughborough photo, there's a hint of lettering above the M of LMS which could be LOCO - it does seem likely that these high capacity wagons would have remained in loco coal traffic.

The MR Leeds Forge 30 Ton Bogie Mineral wagon pictured is very similar to the Caledonian Railway Diagram 54 30 Ton Bogie Mineral wagon, the first 50 were built in 1901. The second batch of 50 from Leeds Forge for the Caley were delivered between July 1902 and April 1903. The MR order was built between the two Caley orders in 1902. The Caley had 370 30 Ton Bogie Minerals built by seven different wagon builders, this was the largest fleet of this type of wagon. Other Pre-Grouping Railways also operated this type of wagon, including the GWR and GNR. 
The GER trialled a 30 ton bogie mineral from Leeds Forge in August 1901, the trial was unsuccessful as the wagon supplied only had two doors on each side making unloading slow. This design had already been rejected by the Caley when ordering their fleet.

RCH drew up specs. for 30 to 40 ton bogie mineral wagons, the first drawings appearing in December 1901.

 

Brian.

[Compound2632]

12 minutes ago, turbos said:

The MR Leeds Forge 30 Ton Bogie Mineral wagon pictured is very similar to the Caledonian Railway Diagram 54 30 Ton Bogie Mineral wagon, the first 50 were built in 1901. The second batch of 50 from Leeds Forge for the Caley were delivered between July 1902 and April 1903. The MR order was built between the two Caley orders in 1902. The Caley had 370 30 Ton Bogie Minerals built by seven different wagon builders, this was the largest fleet of this type of wagon. Other Pre-Grouping Railways also operated this type of wagon, including the GWR and GNR. 
The GER trialled a 30 ton bogie mineral from Leeds Forge in August 1901, the trial was unsuccessful as the wagon supplied only had two doors on each side making unloading slow. This design had already been rejected by the Caley when ordering their fleet.

RCH drew up specs. for 30 to 40 ton bogie mineral wagons, the first drawings appearing in December 1901.

 

Brian, that's most interesting context. I was aware of the Caledonian experiment but not how closely it was related to the Midland's Leeds Forge wagons.

 

I believe records for the Birmingham RC&W Co. survive, in the Staffordshire County Records, so it ought to be possible to trace the wagons built by them for the Midland, but the "American" ones remain a mystery.

 

The Midland Railway Study Centre has a number of drawings, one, Drg. 1555, is a GA of the D347 type with queenpost truss underframe that gives sufficient detail for an accurate model; it gives no further clues as to the builder [MRSC 88-D1804]. The others are for modifications to the doors and buffers and drawgear of the D348 type, with diamond rather than plate frame bogies; Drg. 1897 is the GA [MRSC 88-D1809]. Just to confuse matters, the Carriage & Wagon Register lists Drg. 1897 as referring to the "American" type. So it's possible that in Midland Wagons the relationship between builders and diagrams is out of order and the wagon spotted in the Loughborough photo is in fact an example of the Birmingham batch. That might make more sense, if the diamond bogie was an American innovation, with the home-grown wagons having plate frame bogies?

[turbos]

41 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Brian, that's most interesting context. I was aware of the Caledonian experiment but not how closely it was related to the Midland's Leeds Forge wagons.

 

I believe records for the Birmingham RC&W Co. survive, in the Staffordshire County Records, so it ought to be possible to trace the wagons built by them for the Midland, but the "American" ones remain a mystery.

 

The Midland Railway Study Centre has a number of drawings, one, Drg. 1555, is a GA of the D347 type with queenpost truss underframe that gives sufficient detail for an accurate model; it gives no further clues as to the builder [MRSC 88-D1804]. The others are for modifications to the doors and buffers and drawgear of the D348 type, with diamond rather than plate frame bogies; Drg. 1897 is the GA [MRSC 88-D1809]. Just to confuse matters, the Carriage & Wagon Register lists Drg. 1897 as referring to the "American" type. So it's possible that in Midland Wagons the relationship between builders and diagrams is out of order and the wagon spotted in the Loughborough photo is in fact an example of the Birmingham batch. That might make more sense, if the diamond bogie was an American innovation, with the home-grown wagons having plate frame bogies?

In early 1901 the Caledonian ordered twenty 30 ton bogie mineral wagons from the American Car and Foundry Coy. They arrived in sections and were assembled on the dockside but were found to be of such poor workmanship that they had to be dismantled and practically rebuilt. In July 1902 the Caledonian board decided to ‘decline to take the wagons under any circumstances’. Even after the intervention of an MP to find a solution to take the wagons the Caledonian still declined. A USA historic wagon group may be the best source of the information you’re looking for, the Caledonian American wagon experience may be of help.

Unsurprisingly the Caledonian also had thirty of its Dia.54 30 ton bogie minerals built by the Birmingham RC&W these also had the diamond framed bogies, only the Leeds Forge supplied wagons had the plate frame bogies. 
The Caledonian used the diamond framed bogie on the one off Dia. 50 of 1899 50 ton bogie mineral available in 00 scale as a kit from Ratio Peco Parkside (as pictured).

Brian.