More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[WFPettigrew]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Oh look, a D299:

 

We need an emojo for the appreciation of late Victorian and Edwardian moustaches....!

 

And that's a nicely indecipherable PO next to it....

[phil_sutters]

On 16/03/2022 at 11:35, Compound2632 said:

 

A bit of map-reading, both of the modern OS 1:25,000 and the period OS 25" maps, indicates that this is the crossing of Benfleet Creek, with Benfleet Station just off to the left on the far bank - the crossing is now the B1014. The woman walking towards the camera is clearly not wearing pre-Great War clothing; I suppose this is 1920s - at least a decade after the Midland acquired the LT&SR, so the presence of Midland Loco Coal wagons is intelligible. They're presumably on their way to or from Southend shed. The one that is clearest looks to me as if it might have the cupboard doors of D204.

With access to my family albums from the first half of C20th and a bit before, photographed by a family of tailors and outfitters, I would estimate that hat at about 1920 to 1923. After that the fashion moved to a smoother more rounded outline. Although some may have updated their headgear more slowly.

Edited March 20, 2022 by phil_sutters

[Annie]

On 19/03/2022 at 08:59, WFPettigrew said:

We need an emoji for the appreciation of late Victorian and Edwardian moustaches....!

[Compound2632]

Good to be back. I'll have to see how I go about reposting photos from the last year - probably a job for when I wake up in the middle of the night in need of a cup of tea!

 

Speaking of missing things, a few days ago I was at TNA working my way through the next volume of the MR Locomotive Committee minutes, so I can complete the saga of Mr Harland and the missing wagons.

 

In January 1870 Mr Harland reported that only Nos. 2233 and 6224 were still missing - nothing was said of the circumstances under which No. 8613 was found. The latter, readers will recall, was a timber truck, the two still missing being low side wagons. By February he had also a missing horsebox, No. 18, to report. The latter, a valuable vehicle, was replaced by a new one the following May, but a decision on replacing the two missing low side wagons was put off to the end of the year. Finally, on 17 January 1871, the decision was made to replace them with two new wagons, to be numbered 02233 and 06224. 

 

The use of the 0 cypher at this early date is interesting. Was it cast on the numberplates? At this date Midland wagons did not exhibit their number anywhere else.

 

To put the committee's agony in perspective, in the period from the start of 1868 to mid-1873, over 10,000 low side wagons were added to stock (all built by the trade, chiefly Gloucester and Brown Marshall & Co.) and over 2,000 were built as renewals at Derby or Bromsgrove.

 

I was also entertained by the sad case of L&NW wagon No. 2411, stopped in the shops at Derby as unfit to run, in December 1870. Matthew Kirtley was asked to report on it; he neither minced his words or used full stops:

 

"The above wagon has 2 defective Sole Bars, both Soles being spliced at each end, and the Timber rotten, the 2 Middle Pieces are broken, and have been plated, 1 Headstock has been broken apparently for some time, there are no longitudinals between Headstock and Middle Pieces, the Diagonals are but 3½ inches square, and are without tenons, the side and end planks are in a defective state; both pairs of wheels have only 5 inch journals, and the wheels are 3/8 inch too narrow for our Gauge, the Wagon is altogether in a very defective condition, and is much too light and weak for running in ordinary Goods Trains."

 

Unfortunately there is no further record in the minutes; it would have been interesting to read the L&NW's response!

[Rail-Online]

Just to get you back on track here is another MR D299 wagon number for you to add to your master list. 62114.

 

Tony

[Compound2632]

56 minutes ago, Rail-Online said:

Just to get you back on track here is another MR D299 wagon number for you to add to your master list. 62114.

 

I take it from the disk on the locomotive's lamp iron that this is a Southern location - can you give details, especially date? Is this the RH edge of the photo? - i.e. no chance of seeing which sort of axleboxes it's got?

[Steamport Southport]

SECR I think.

 

If it's No 69 then it's a R 0-6-0T.

 

 

 

Jason

[Compound2632]

14 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

SECR I think.

 

If it's No 69 then it's a R 0-6-0T.

 

But it might be Class O No. 369...

 

Tony will have the data, as it's presumably a photo in his Rail-Online collection. 

[Compound2632]

Before the interruption, I had been burbling on about Coppice Collieries wagons. I'm grateful to @Andy Vincent who, in the corse of another discussion that I'll post on in a while, reminded me of DY 1797, one of a series of photos of the Midland Railway's infrastructure at Poplar Docks, DY 1790-7, some dating from 1898, others, replacements taken in 1922. This one is from 1922 and here it is in the high-resolution watermarked scan on Getty Images:

 

 

[Embedded link.]

 

There's such a lot going on here. Several D299s and a D302, some at least of which have their number on the bottom plank under the letter M, confirming the post-Great War date. The two Coppice Collieries wagons being tipped have consecutive numbers but 373 is wood-framed and 374, steel framed. Each wagon is attended by two men, one in shirt sleeves and flat cap who is evidently the coal-heaver, and one in jacket and peaked cap who is presumably in charge of operations - unless a leaf has been taken out of the Soviets' book and he's the political commissar. Somehow I doubt they're H&S Inspectors. How do they get on and off the platform, which rotates with the tippler, as is clear from the one in the background. 

 

The Aisgill Goodman & Co wagon looks to be an RCH 1907 specification 16 ft wagon. It bears two horseshoe-shaped cast plates, the style of Thomas Burnett & Co. of Doncaster - that on the solebar is probably their builder's plate while the lettering inside the one on the body-side may say "For Repairs advise". On contrast to such modernity, there's an SECR ex-SER "express coal" wagon lurking in the background, with 3'7" diameter Mansell wheels. 

 

I suppose the duckboard-like things stacked up on the barge cover the coal load.

[kitpw]

58 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

the duckboard-like things

I found one of those in the Thames between Putney and Hammersmith about 50 years ago.  Carried back to base, dried out, tidied up and stood on some drift wood trestle legs, it served as a robust and interesting dining table throughout my student years.  It was hatch cover no VII - the number being carefuly carved into the top of it.

 

Kit PW

Edited April 1, 2022 by kitpw
spelling

[Penlan]

4 hours ago, kitpw said:

I found one of those in the Thames between Putney and Hammersmith about 50 years ago. ...... It was hatch cover no VII - the number being carefuly carved into the top of it.

So that's where it went?

[Compound2632]

Right. Never again will I bother re-taking a photo if I notice that the 3-links aren't hanging straight:

 

 

[A D299, c. 1890s/early 1900s.]

Edited April 2, 2022 by Compound2632

[Rail-Online]

On 01/04/2022 at 12:40, Compound2632 said:

 

I take it from the disk on the locomotive's lamp iron that this is a Southern location - can you give details, especially date? Is this the RH edge of the photo? - i.e. no chance of seeing which sort of axleboxes it's got?

Yes it was right on the edge of a neg, and it came with no info at all.  Just a shed scene on the SECR at an unknown location, best guess around 1910.  Tony

[Asterix2012]

On 01/04/2022 at 16:25, Compound2632 said:

Before the interruption, I had been burbling on about Coppice Collieries wagons. I'm grateful to @Andy Vincent who, in the corse of another discussion that I'll post on in a while, reminded me of DY 1797, one of a series of photos of the Midland Railway's infrastructure at Poplar Docks, DY 1790-7, some dating from 1898, others, replacements taken in 1922. This one is from 1922 and here it is in the high-resolution watermarked scan on Getty Images:

 

 

[Embedded link.]

 

There's such a lot going on here. Several D299s and a D302, some at least of which have their number on the bottom plank under the letter M, confirming the post-Great War date. The two Coppice Collieries wagons being tipped have consecutive numbers but 373 is wood-framed and 374, steel framed. Each wagon is attended by two men, one in shirt sleeves and flat cap who is evidently the coal-heaver, and one in jacket and peaked cap who is presumably in charge of operations - unless a leaf has been taken out of the Soviets' book and he's the political commissar. Somehow I doubt they're H&S Inspectors. How do they get on and off the platform, which rotates with the tippler, as is clear from the one in the background. 

Maybe the guy sitting on the wagon in the background next to the tippler is a clue

 

You could sit on the side sheet and step down to the platform as the wagon is tipped

Edited April 3, 2022 by Asterix2012
Additional text

[Compound2632]

14 minutes ago, Asterix2012 said:

Maybe the guy sitting on the wagon in the background next to the tippler is a clue

 

You could sit on the side sheet and step down to the platform as the wagon is tipped

 

Hum. I suppose the tippler would rotate slowly rather than flip over with a jolt. Even so, what happens with a full load? Don't a couple of tons of coal come avalanching over the rave and onto the platform?

[Asterix2012]

2 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Hum. I suppose the tippler would rotate slowly rather than flip over with a jolt. Even so, what happens with a full load? Don't a couple of tons of coal come avalanching over the rave and onto the platform?

Not sure, I think it would depend on the lump size and from memory of the one working in Dundee the coal is stable up to a point then the whole lot pours out.

 

But that was a long time ago

 

I wonder if there are any old films of tipplers in action 

[Asterix2012]

It seems there are, this one unfortunately not available on the web

 

https://movingimage.nls.uk/film/5662

[Rail-Online]

I was surprised to see colliery wagons from the Cannock coalfield tipping into barges on the Thames.  Somehow I would have expected the load to travel all the way on a narrowboat. I guess the final destination must have been only river connected (or it was destined for a ships boiler?) otherwise the wagons would go straight into the location by rail. 

 

Do we know what colour the Asgill Goodman wagon was?

 

Tony

[Nick Holliday]

On 01/04/2022 at 11:41, Rail-Online said:

Just to get you back on track here is another MR D299 wagon number for you to add to your master list. 62114.

 

Tony

 

On 01/04/2022 at 13:48, Steamport Southport said:

SECR I think.

If it's No 69 then it's a R 0-6-0T.

Jason

 

On 01/04/2022 at 14:09, Compound2632 said:

But it might be Class O No. 369...

Tony will have the data, as it's presumably a photo in his Rail-Online collection. 

The SER and SECR classes tended to have square bases to their buffers, and a deeper buffer beam, with a substantial gap at the top, as per this picture from Mike Morant's collection

The one in the picture is likely to be an ex-LCDR loco, most probably their R Class 0-4-4T, with an SECR number of 669. Shortly after the merger, this loco was posted to Orpington depot.  Typical R 0-4-4T below:-

Edited April 3, 2022 by Nick Holliday
Photo of R tank (Courtesy H G Tidy) added

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, Nick Holliday said:

The one in the picture is likely to be an ex-LCDR loco, most probably their R Class 0-4-4T, with an SECR number of 669. Shortly after the merger, this loco was posted to Orpington depot.

 

Thar she blows!

 

 

[Embedded link to flickr.]

[Asterix2012]

41 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Hum. I suppose the tippler would rotate slowly rather than flip over with a jolt. Even so, what happens with a full load? Don't a couple of tons of coal come avalanching over the rave and onto the platform?

Found a more modern video which shows a tippler with clear views of what appears to be very fine coal being tipped from about 30 seconds in.

 

https://digg.com/video/rotating-railcar-dumper

 

The load starts moving when the wagon reaches quite a high tilt.

[Steamport Southport]

3 hours ago, Nick Holliday said:

 

 

The SER and SECR classes tended to have square bases to their buffers, and a deeper buffer beam, with a substantial gap at the top, as per this picture from Mike Morant's collection

The one in the picture is likely to be an ex-LCDR loco, most probably their R Class 0-4-4T, with an SECR number of 669. Shortly after the merger, this loco was posted to Orpington depot.  Typical R 0-4-4T below:-

 

So I was right that it's a R, just the wrong type of R!

 

😀

[jamie92208]

4 hours ago, Asterix2012 said:

Found a more modern video which shows a tippler with clear views of what appears to be very fine coal being tipped from about 30 seconds in.

 

https://digg.com/video/rotating-railcar-dumper

 

The load starts moving when the wagon reaches quite a high tilt.

I asked a geologist what the angle of lie for coal is and the reply was 30 degrees so nothing will move till the angle is more than that.  I wanted to know for  modelling heaps if coal in yards.

 

Jamie

[Compound2632]

21 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

I asked a geologist what the angle of lie for coal is and the reply was 30 degrees so nothing will move till the angle is more than that.  I wanted to know for  modelling heaps if coal in yards.

 

Though I rather suspect lump size was a significant factor. Fine coal would, I think, start to move at a gentler angle than larger lumps that had been well shaken down in transit and hence interlocked.

 

Also, for the finer stuff, whether wet or dry. 

[Asterix2012]

30 degrees seems a bit shallow from memory