25kv overhead wires

[darrel]

with the announcement by Bachman of class 85 locos and class 350 EMUs and the new class 86 from Heljan not forgetting Hornby's class 86. 87, 90, 91, 92 eurostar and javelin is it not about time one of the major manufacturers produced some decent british OHLE to go with it I know Dapol are to bring out some in N gauge perhaps the could upscale it to 00 gauge as well. or maybe Hornby as part of the scaledale range

Im about to start a new 00 gauge layout and want to put up the wires but there are no ready to install OHLE availible. if there is enough demand to make electric trains there must be the demand for the overhead wires to run them under

my last layout was in T gauge and you can even get OHLE in that scale!!!!!!

[darrel]

they look great can't wait

[96701]

An Advanced Search for 'Catenary' in post titles reveals seven topics, one of which is in the Small Suppliers thread here http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/topic/4582-peco-catenary/page__p__34802__hl__catenary__fromsearch__1entry34802

[Phatbob]

Given that Hornby own Electrotren and they have an HO catenary system, perhaps we should start bowing to the East and praying to Margate for some 00 scale UK outline catenery?

[Guest jim s-w]

Hi Darrell

 

Have you considered scratchbuilding it? Its very rewarding!

 

Cheers

 

Jim

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I appreciate that the Peco picture is mock up for publicity purposes, but it does illustrate my personal dislike of the limitations of modelled knitting. The conductor wire should be straight, the suspension above should be a series of straight lines between the mast booms: indicating that it is all in tension taking load. Anyone who can crack this in model form would be significantly advancing the state of modelmaking art. (Or has it been accomplished and I have not looked hard enough?) My preference for this and other suspended wire like telephone, is just the masts.

[Guest jim s-w]

My thoughts exactly.

 

As for 'just the masts' I sort of agree as scale (4mm scale) OLE is nigh on invisble - however the interaction with the pan needs wires and its well worth going the whole hog

 

 

 

Cheers

 

Jim

[Gwiwer]

Jim - I've told you before that you're not allowed to post pictures of the real thing in here and claim it's your model :icon_razz:

[Oldddudders]

with the announcement by Bachman of class 85 locos and class 350 EMUs and the new class 86 from Heljan not forgetting Hornby's class 86. 87, 90, 91, 92 eurostar and javelin is it not about time one of the major manufacturers produced some decent british OHLE to go with it I know Dapol are to bring out some in N gauge perhaps the could upscale it to 00 gauge as well. or maybe Hornby as part of the scaledale range

Im about to start a new 00 gauge layout and want to put up the wires but there are no ready to install OHLE availible. if there is enough demand to make electric trains there must be the demand for the overhead wires to run them under

my last layout was in T gauge and you can even get OHLE in that scale!!!!!!

Am I not right in thinking that Tri-ang, before they became Hornby, did OLE back in the '60s? This would have been when their EM2 electric loco appeared, I imagine. If I'm not dreaming, the stuff was in green plastic, and plugged into the Series 3 - or was it Super 4 by then? - track. I suspect it didn't sell, and, rather like Peco swearing never to make TT-scale stuff after Tri-ang dropped that, Margate decided the investment was always gonna be a lossmaker. Anyone else recall this - or was I dreaming?

[Guest jim s-w]

Hi Ian

 

Nope - you are not dreaming. There was also the much later Hornby OLE with a contact wire like a peice of scaffolding which was in the late 80's catalogue (about the time they introduced their class 90 and 91 models. I dont know if it was ever actually produced though.

 

Cheers

 

Jim

[Dagworth]

I appreciate that the Peco picture is mock up for publicity purposes, but it does illustrate my personal dislike of the limitations of modelled knitting. The conductor wire should be straight, the suspension above should be a series of straight lines between the mast booms: indicating that it is all in tension taking load. Anyone who can crack this in model form would be significantly advancing the state of modelmaking art. (Or has it been accomplished and I have not looked hard enough?) My preference for this and other suspended wire like telephone, is just the masts.

Er... yes, some of us have got tensioned OHLE that does behave like the real thing. I've even got working tensioning gear in 4mm, see

 

Andi

[talbotsteve]

This was the same stuff Hornby re-released when the 225 train sets came out, the oversized cream stanchions and grey gantrys with the single contact wire catenary......Awful looking.

 

Steve

[298]

Hi Ian

 

Nope - you are not dreaming. There was also the much later Hornby OLE with a contact wire like a peice of scaffolding which was in the late 80's catalogue (about the time they introduced their class 90 and 91 models. I dont know if it was ever actually produced though.

 

Cheers

 

Jim

 

It was, and seems to have commanded high prices on eBay for quite a while.

 

I think the hobby needs to have a bit of a sit down and a talk with itself to see what it expects from a "ready to plonk" OHLE system. Thin tensioned wires are the key to a realistic system in scales down to 4mm, but this requires alot of scratchbuilding which doesn't seem to be the done thing in 2010. Any commercial alternative will only be along the lines of the well established Sommerfeldt type european systems, which I personally find visually lacking and heavily compromised.

 

Basically, i'm concerned the average modeller wants something of the standard of Jim's plank, but from a commercial product and ready to place on their layout, which means the designers have to have quite a varied selection of masts and support infrastructure in order to suit all eventualities. Ironically these issues are also present on the prototype, and some real installations have taken alot of design work and trial & error to get right so it's not just us who has these discussions...!! You'd end up with more variations than the Setrack range, and a patronising booklet explaining which bits to add to your standard #5 trackplan, which is fine unless you've built the #6.

 

I just hope there won't be too many disillusioned modellers out there in a few years time who expect their evolving loft empires to magcally look like one of the better OHLE exhibition layouts, especially if they keep badgering Bachmann or Heljan for masts to go with their 85 or 86. I've never seen anyone complain that Heljan don't make track, so don't assume they'll be producing anything more complicated than the Tomix/Dapol plastic "drill & fill" masts.

[Oldddudders]

 

Basically, i'm concerned the average modeller wants something of the standard of Jim's plank, but from a commercial product and ready to place on their layout, which means the designers have to have quite a varied selection of masts and support infrastructure in order to suit all eventualities. Ironically these issues are also present on the prototype, and some real installations have taken alot of design work and trial & error to get right so it's not just us who has these discussions...!!

My recollection is that in the early days of 25kV electrification, there were real problems electrifying diamond crossings - so these were eliminated. Thus the WCML of a certain generation had an awful lot of single lead junctions to enable Fast-Slow etc moves on the 4-track sections, otherwise known as "weaves" I believe, where a more traditional (i.e. operations-led design) layout would have had parallel crossovers. When your power supply choice starts dictating track layouts, there may be some sums to be done.....

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Jim - I've told you before that you're not allowed to post pictures of the real thing in here and claim it's your model

I too am suitably impressed by what Jim and Andi have to show. It would be interesting to have an estimate of the cost of their OHLE product per metre of plain track, to set realistic expectations of what a RTR commercial product of 'credible' appearance might have to be priced at.

[Guest jim s-w]

I have no idea but High quality etched brass in the states aint cheap

 

Check out

 

http://www.texnrails.com/catalog/details.asp?sid=JC268287371111153&mfg=TMS&item=2300805&cat=T&series=

 

and

 

http://www.texnrails.com/catalog/details.asp?sid=JC268287371111326&mfg=TMS&item=2200301&cat=T&series=

(gorgeous aint it?)

 

Cheers

 

Jim

[backwaterscotland]

Am I not right in thinking that Tri-ang, before they became Hornby, did OLE back in the '60s? This would have been when their EM2 electric loco appeared, I imagine. If I'm not dreaming, the stuff was in green plastic, and plugged into the Series 3 - or was it Super 4 by then? - track. I suspect it didn't sell, and, rather like Peco swearing never to make TT-scale stuff after Tri-ang dropped that, Margate decided the investment was always gonna be a lossmaker. Anyone else recall this - or was I dreaming?

 

That sounds like this stuff : http://www.tri-ang.co.uk/OO/aohsSets.html

 

looks quite chunky to modern eyes

 

Andy B)

[Dagworth]

I too am suitably impressed by what Jim and Andi have to show. It would be interesting to have an estimate of the cost of their OHLE product per metre of plain track, to set realistic expectations of what a RTR commercial product of 'credible' appearance might have to be priced at.

 

 

per metre of plain track the material costs are negligable, probably less than a fiver and my time, that's using cantilever support. Portals are significantly more.

 

Andi

[298]

My recollection is that in the early days of 25kV electrification, there were real problems electrifying diamond crossings - so these were eliminated. Thus the WCML of a certain generation had an awful lot of single lead junctions to enable Fast-Slow etc moves on the 4-track sections, otherwise known as "weaves" I believe, where a more traditional (i.e. operations-led design) layout would have had parallel crossovers. When your power supply choice starts dictating track layouts, there may be some sums to be done.....

 

It's less of an issue now as Network Rail come around to the idea of "Coasting", where an electric train drops it's pan to use an unwired crossing.

[great central]

My recollection is that in the early days of 25kV electrification, there were real problems electrifying diamond crossings - so these were eliminated. Thus the WCML of a certain generation had an awful lot of single lead junctions to enable Fast-Slow etc moves on the 4-track sections, otherwise known as "weaves" I believe, where a more traditional (i.e. operations-led design) layout would have had parallel crossovers. When your power supply choice starts dictating track layouts, there may be some sums to be done.....

 

I can't see why there would be particular difficulty wiring a diamond. I don't think the trackwork was altered greatly when Woodhead was electrified and much of the early 25kv was pretty much developed from the earlier 1500vDC equipment

I understood that the single lead junction is favoured because there is less maintenance requirement. On fast to slow junctions in paralell pairs of tracks, you would need four sets of points and two diamonds which gives 8 'noses'. If you then want to add up to down crossovers you either need more points or, at least, single slips Using a single lead (bi-directional) crossover you only need six points/noses, and they can also be used as up/down crossovers. I suspect they may also allow higher speeds as a double junction using diamonds would require a much shallower angle and possibly switched diamonds to give the same speed.

The new crossovers at Chesterfield south are 70mph, the old diamond set up at Clay Cross was, I think 50mph to the Erewash valley line and still gave you quite a jolt!

[darrel]

Hi Darrell

 

Have you considered scratchbuilding it? Its very rewarding!

 

Cheers

 

Jim

hi jim

i am not very good at scratch building and would prefer to avoid it if possible. I really want easy to put together OHLE but somthing that looks right unlike the old stuff Hornby once produced

[Gwiwer]

"Not very good" at scratch building can often be improved upon with more practice and - in some cases - additional and more appropriate tools and workbench set-up. Having insufficient time to scratch build, whether one wishes to improve or not, is quite another thing. I don't need OHLE but could wish that I had more time to scratch build structures which are unique to the area I model. It's been over 5 years and so far nothing has reached the head of the workshop queue .....

 

I believe the issues with OHLE at diamond crossings also related to line speeds and track wear. A pan will track safely across interlaced catenaries at a slower speed but may well entangle with them at high speeds. Hammer-blow to the track and the need to keep the p-way in top condition for high speed running has meant that many traditional double-track turnouts have been replaced with "weaves". Compare the WCML track geometry - nowadays set up for Pendolini - with the GE out of Liverpool Street where there are still double-track crossovers between "fast" and "electric" lines at frequent intervals but the line speed is lower. And compare the amount and intricacy of the OHLE required in each case. The WCML gets the better deal.

[darrel]

"Not very good" at scratch building can often be improved upon with more practice and - in some cases - additional and more appropriate tools and workbench set-up. Having insufficient time to scratch build, whether one wishes to improve or not, is quite another thing. I don't need OHLE but could wish that I had more time to scratch build structures which are unique to the area I model. It's been over 5 years and so far nothing has reached the head of the workshop queue .....

 

 

I get slagged off in my model railway club for the fact it took 7 years to finish my N gauge layout it was only 9' by 1' and the fact I have a cupboard full of half built kits not to mention the ones I never started.

[Gwiwer]

it took 7 years to finish

 

Finish? FINISH ????? :icon_wow:

 

A model railway is never finished, surely? :icon_rolleyes: It will always need something more done to it :icon_wink: We only have so much time and all work at our own pace. Therein lies a significant part of the compromise of modelling; we aspire to having near-perfect representations of OHLE to match with our trains but fewer of us have all of the requisite time plus tools plus skills plus patience plus research of prototype to create it.

[298]

Mr 298, apols for snipping your above post, but the answers are all there in your own words!, as I've juggled them about a bit. As the OHLE experts show how it can be done by scratchbuilding, those who don't want to follow the same path will either have to do without, use proprietary products or modify proprietary products, in exactly the same way 'OO' track is dealt with. Unless a generous benfactor is going to stump up multiple tooling costs, for different prototypes and components, for plug and play RTR, (let alone expect to make it profitable), the 'average' OHLE modeller will have to make do with whatever the manufacturers dictate, and the 'experts' systems will always be noticeable by their quality. I can see the OHLE 'what should be produced' debate, being soooo similar to 'OO' track ...

 

NB 'expert' used this context, just in case ....

An expert, more generally, is a person with extensive knowledge or ability based on research, experience, or occupation and in a particular area of study.

 

No apology needed, the only issue I have (but probably didn't explain too well) is from experience, most people considering OHLE don't understand the issues of durability, reliability, cost, access, maintenance, etc, that this part of the hobby demands. I'm sure if Peco thought there was a demand for a Setrack (can I call it Seohle?) system, they would have brought one to the market years ago.

 

Thinking about it again, it might just be the last frontier of scratchbuilding, as just about every other item on a layout from trackwork to buildings and scenery products can be satisfied by a commercial product.