Fawley Oil trains Finale 25th August

[RANGERS]

The costs are paid by the end user whichever way you look at it.  Damage to roads is proportional to the fourth power of the axleload so a quick bit of maths tells you that the trucking industry is vastly subsidised by the taxpayer.  The only question for the taxpayer is where you pay the money - either in taxation or in the cost of goods you buy. A return to wagonload freight isn't likely because of the capital investment involved but that doesn't mean that we aren't being swindled by the trucking industry.

All goods have to get there somehow, and as the high fixed cost of rail doesn't work for it, anyone else got any ideas?

[Gwiwer]

Mutterings about restoring a passenger service have never quite become a vocal force as they have in other places.   Of the communities which might benefit Marchwood is close to Totton on the main line and Hythe is served by the curious pier tramway and ferry almost to the heart of Southampton which is arguably more popular than the bus.  Waterside buses haven't done so well over the years.  They suffer from traffic congestion in Southampton making them unreliable at times and some point-to-point journey times can be longer than via the Hythe ferry.  They do however reach areas of Hythe well away from the railway and serve other places the railway cannot such as Calshot.  

The lines between Totton and Southampton are very busy meaning capacity will be an issue.  Where would one run the service to?  Would it terminate at Southampton Central?  Would it extend to Eastleigh and plug in to the airport?  Would it be, perhaps, an extension to an existing service such as the SWT Portsmouth "stopper"?  If the latter there appears to be just enough time to extend that in its hourly pattern to and from Hythe as a one-train-working operation and get the unit back for its existing departure slot. One additional unit would be required and some smart running on a completely rebuilt and electrified branch.

 

How ever it was done would require significant investment.  I know the Waterside communities have sometimes claimed to feel second-best and left out of the boom which is occurring around Southampton but would they support a rail service which of necessity only served Hythe and Marchwood?  And which would require onward transport from Hythe station to reach most parts of the town. 

 

I for one was pleased to be able to reach Fawley station back in 1975 on a railtour.  Somewhere I have some very poor quality Instamatic prints of the occasion as well despite suggestions that we should not take photos at Fawley many of us did.  I'd like to think the line could be put to better use than becoming a home for more Buddleia.

[F-UnitMad]

....a quick bit of maths tells you that the trucking industry is vastly subsidised by the taxpayer...

And the rail industry isn't???

Gimme a break.

[Zomboid]

And the rail industry isn't???

Gimme a break.

It's a bit more up front with rail...

I'm not sure what we pay taxes for if not things like provision of transportation infrastructure, so I've no problem with the taxpayer funding/ subsidising it.

I suppose the thing is the comparative lack of regulation of the road haulage industry. Rail freight has to directly pay a larger proportion of its actual cost than road freight. Or at least that's the assertion, I wouldn't know for sure myself.

[PaulRhB]

Rail is good at bulk goods in the modern world, trucks are better at small loads equivalent of wagonload because of the sprawling road network. We live with the consequences of historical decisions made due to the politics and 'future' as seen at the time. Who'd have thought as they ripped up tramways that so many systems would be being rebuilt? Pipelines have taken a long time to take over but they are seen as the long term investment for the industry and have displaced rail at Furzebrook too some years ago. On the brighter side we are looking at a new freight flow to Wilton as a result of HS2 spoil dumping once everything is signed for HS2 to go ahead.

Pipelines and roads are cheaper for certain things and that's what the vast majority demand so inevitably capitalism wins

[caradoc]

And the rail industry isn't???

Gimme a break.

 

Rail freight is not subsidised. It also has the 'disadvantage' of having to comply, absolutely and always, with the rules and regulations governing rail transport, whereas road haulage operators break road traffic law on a daily basis, going by the number of lorries and vans I see exceeding the 50mph speed limit on the M77 in Glasgow, and the frequency with which lorries ram into railway bridges.  

[PenrithBeacon]

So where will the pipeline from Fawley terminate?

 

 

Regards

Edited August 6, 2016 by PenrithBeacon

[Fat Controller]

So where will the pipeline from Fawley terminate?

 

 

Regards

I would suggest Bromford Bridge (Birmingham) as already mentioned, Heathrow/Gatwick airports, and possibly somewhere like Buncefield. I don't know if it uses any of the WW2 network (which now appears to be Spanish-owned):- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CLH_Pipeline_System

I'm curious how the different grades of fuel are delivered  through what appears to be a single pipeline. 

Edited August 6, 2016 by Fat Controller

[Enterprisingwestern]

I would suggest Bromford Bridge (Birmingham) as already mentioned, Heathrow/Gatwick airports, and possibly somewhere like Buncefield. I don't know if it uses any of the WW2 network (which now appears to be Spanish-owned):- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CLH_Pipeline_System

I'm curious how the different grades of fuel are delivered  through what appears to be a single pipeline.

 

Purge and flush presumably?

 

Mike.

[hmrspaul]

We visited ESSO Fawley in August 1979, although my photos are not very good (I suspect I had made a mistake with setting the ISO for the film). http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/essofawley

 

Paul

[Ron Ron Ron]

Only a very small amount of Fawley's output has been moved by rail, over the last few decades.

The bulk of the output is transported by pipelines (85%) and back out by sea (10%).

The remaining 5% is mostly by road, which I believe is mostly chemicals.

 

 

So where will the pipeline from Fawley terminate?

 

 

The pipelines have existed for decades.

A rough diagram is here.....

 

http://www.linewatch.co.uk/map-PDF/map-ESSO.pdf

 

There are other extensive pipeline networks around the country, such as the BPA managed one....

 

Nx679xmap12.jpg.pagespeed.ic.sfzjG1F9hs.jpg

 

 

 

 

.

[APOLLO]

Purge and flush presumably?

 

Mike.

 

Sometimes, but not always.

 

This is an interesting well illustrated document.

 

http://cepac.cheme.cmu.edu/pasi2008/slides/cerda/library/slides/jcerda-pasi-2008-1page.pdf

 

Brit15

Edited August 6, 2016 by APOLLO

[Edwin_m]

Setting charges for the trucking industry proportionate to the costs it gives rise to would help to even up the playing field and go some way to ensuring that decisions made are based on true costs.  It would incentivise the logistics industry to base itself around "hub and spoke" models with rail taking the bulk traffic between main depots for which it is most suited, and trucks doing distribution rather than the trunk haul.  It might also cause distributors and supermarkets to pay more attention to minimising the distance things travel in the first place.  Some of this already happens but it would happen more if the people who decided how the goods was hauled had to face the true costs of their decisions. 

[Fat Controller]

Sometimes, but not always.

 

This is an interesting well illustrated document.

 

http://cepac.cheme.cmu.edu/pasi2008/slides/cerda/library/slides/jcerda-pasi-2008-1page.pdf

 

Brit15

Thanks for posting that link; it's the first time I've seen it set out how the things work. Amazing they can send so many discrete problems with minimal cross-contamination.

[Zomboid]

Setting charges for the trucking industry proportionate to the costs it gives rise to would help to even up the playing field and go some way to ensuring that decisions made are based on true costs. It would incentivise the logistics industry to base itself around "hub and spoke" models with rail taking the bulk traffic between main depots for which it is most suited, and trucks doing distribution rather than the trunk haul. It might also cause distributors and supermarkets to pay more attention to minimising the distance things travel in the first place. Some of this already happens but it would happen more if the people who decided how the goods was hauled had to face the true costs of their decisions.

We'd also pay a fair bit more for the goods. I'm less convinced that personal taxation would be reduced in response to the increased take from road hauliers. Might even have to go up to pay for the extra rail infrastructure.

[PenrithBeacon]

...

 

 

The pipelines have existed for decades.

A rough diagram is here.....

 

http://www.linewatch.co.uk/map-PDF/map-ESSO.pdf

 

There are other extensive pipeline networks around the country, such as the BPA managed one....

 

Nx679xmap12.jpg.pagespeed.ic.sfzjG1F9hs.jpg

 

 

 

 

.

Thank you for that.

 

I wonder if the Lindsey-Heathrow trains will continue to run.

 

Regards

Edited August 7, 2016 by PenrithBeacon

[petethemole]

This has now reached the local rag's website:  http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/14673737.Oil_refinery_s_decision_could_end_hopes_of_Waterside_trains/?ref=mrb&lp=8#comments-anchor

 

According to this the flow is crude inbound to Fawley, which will now all arrive by sea.

 

Part of the County Council's reasoning for not supporting passenger re-opening was the existence of the Hythe Ferry, which would allegedly become unviable or continue to take enough traffic that the train service would be unviable. The ferry is heavily subsidised and nearly every year this funding is threatened, so it may not be long before it stops, leaving buses and cars as the only travel option for Waterside. The buses serve a catchment area down to Fawley and beyond, from which potential rail users would have to travel to Hythe or Marchwood. See routes 8 and 9 on the bus map: http://www.bluestarbus.co.uk/page.shtml?pageid=811.

 

A local service of small buses integrated with the train timetable and with through ticketing would possibly work, but no doubt be seen in certain influential quarters as anti-competitive.

 

Pete

[4630]

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Edited November 12, 2016 by 4630

[clachnaharry]

Does anyone know if the Holybourne terminal is also closing, or is the flow being diverted somewhere else?

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Are any days better as far when these trains ex-Fawley are certain to run?

 

Anyone know the schedule for late next week please?

[4630]

.

Edited November 12, 2016 by 4630

[Peter Kazmierczak]

66177 plods through the green corridor, that is much of the Fawley branch, last Thursday with loaded tanks from Holybourne. The train recesses overnight at Eastleigh, working down to fawley early the next morning.

 

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Don't worry; I was on the right side of the fence. The Fawley Branch is not the easiest to take photos on though.

 

[bigP]

--

Edited January 31, 2021 by bigP
Deleted

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Whilst not wishing to take issue with someone who has driven trains to/from Holybourne, surely the tanks are loaded TO Fawley. Humbly Grove oil field, near Lasham, is where the crude oil originates. It's taken TO Fawley for processing.

 

Holybourne is a dispatching terminal for crude oil, not a distribution point for refined products.