sanspareil Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 As many no doubt seen plenty of videos online now of the first eurostar delivery run to the scrap yard. For example this one here show the sets final shunt: Still struggling to get my head round this. I understand why its hard to reuse them but still seems an awful waste. I cant see how its cheaper for eurostar to buy new sets and still keep such a small fleet of the originals. I would have though cheaper to retain more of the originals and buy just a small fleet of the new ones where they are specifically required (such as forthcoming services to NL I understand). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanspareil Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 PS is it me or were a lot of square wheels picked up enroute? Early vids seem to show no issues buy latter ones show the set and drag loco making a right clatter as they pass? If eurostar are planning on re-using any of those wheel sets they might need to consider some tyre turning now! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted October 31, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 31, 2016 (edited) As many no doubt seen plenty of videos online now of the first eurostar delivery run to the scrap yard. For example this one here show the sets final shunt: Still struggling to get my head round this. I understand why its hard to reuse them but still seems an awful waste. I cant see how its cheaper for eurostar to buy new sets and still keep such a small fleet of the originals. I would have though cheaper to retain more of the originals and buy just a small fleet of the new ones where they are specifically required (such as forthcoming services to NL I understand). These trains are at or near the point where a "mid-life refurbishment" would be expected to take place and the fact that it isn't going to happen is, almost certainly, because the new-build option has been calculated to be more cost-effective. As outsiders, we have no inkling of what "wear-and-tear" issues might need to be addressed during a major refurbishment. It hasn't been stated but I would expect the scrapping process on at least some of the withdrawn sets to include the recovery of key components to help keep the reduced fleet going as economically as possible until it too gets replaced. John Edited October 31, 2016 by Dunsignalling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Higgs Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 (edited) As many no doubt seen plenty of videos online now of the first eurostar delivery run to the scrap yard. For example this one here show the sets final shunt: Still struggling to get my head round this. I understand why its hard to reuse them but still seems an awful waste. I cant see how its cheaper for eurostar to buy new sets and still keep such a small fleet of the originals. I would have though cheaper to retain more of the originals and buy just a small fleet of the new ones where they are specifically required (such as forthcoming services to NL I understand). As I understood it (having travelled every week for a year from Brussels to London), they want the extra capacity the new sets give on the Paris route, and refurbishing the existing sets does not provide that. The refurbished ones will be deployed on the Brussels services where this is not needed. So probably it is cheaper to refurbish than build new, however that is no use if you need extra capacity. It certainly will restrict flexibility in the case of set failures, as even if you deploy one of the new ones in place of a failed reurbished unit, the seat reservations are going to be all messed up. Do it the other way around and there will not be enough seats. I travelled once on a refurbished unit. The seats are nowhere near as comfortable, however every seat in every coach has a power point, and WiFi will be provided (this was not activated when I travelled). Chris Edited October 31, 2016 by Chris Higgs Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 The extra seats on the new sets go some way to offsetting the increased track access charges from RFF/SNCF. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanspareil Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 Maybe rather than 'needing' extra capacity this is allowing eurostar to cut services thus saving other costs from staff to track access charges. This fits in with recent announcements with some cuts in services cuts and job losses - although eurostar made no such connection to the new fleet. Eurostar also only run with an average load factor of circa 60% vs Ryanairs 94%. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 Modern Railways mag is speculating that they are being cut up to ensure no competitor can get their hands on them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 Modern Railways mag is speculating that they are being cut up to ensure no competitor can get their hands on them. Speculation is just that. If Eurostar wanted to store them where would you recommend and how much would it cost, why would Eurostar want to waste money storing an asset they dont want or need? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim H Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 At one time EWS seemed to have a policy that they'd let redundant locos rot until their condition was so poor than nobody other than a scrap merchant would want them. Even then, some 56s went for scrap only for the scrap dealer to resell to Colas who put them back into traffic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim H Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 PS is it me or were a lot of square wheels picked up enroute? Early vids seem to show no issues buy latter ones show the set and drag loco making a right clatter as they pass? If eurostar are planning on re-using any of those wheel sets they might need to consider some tyre turning now! Having seen a few of these videos, the bad wheelflats only appear on the last leg of the journey. No siign of them at Welwyn North or Peterborough. Did something happen en-route? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 .....As the Class 373's date from before privatisation, and owner E* is in effect a subsidiary of state-owned SNCF, this might set a precedent preventing these sets going into recycling anytime soon. All it takes is someone to ask the Courts to get an injunction preventing E* scrapping them You are ignoring the fact that other Class 373 sets have already been scrapped in France. A different precedent has already been set. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted November 1, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 1, 2016 Having seen a few of these videos, the bad wheelflats only appear on the last leg of the journey. No siign of them at Welwyn North or Peterborough. Did something happen en-route? that 'something' may have been the leicester to burton route (if they came that way), nothing uses it beyond barton hill so its notoriously slippy especially this time of year and very easy to put flats on vehicles it does sound on the setting back video that the brakes are on for a short while after it begins setting back, perhaps they take a while to come off fully, im not quite sure what the braking system is on them as there are no translator vehicles, just piped direct to the loco by the look of it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Fisher Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 Modern Railways mag is speculating that they are being cut up to ensure no competitor can get their hands on them. No one came forward....on good authority so Modern Railways is erm wrong Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Fisher Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 And another snippet from my source, the 373 while maybe not used as much but have a higher mileage have managed as long in frontline service as most class 55's! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
olivegreen Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 (edited) That's the classic line that has always been used. And is why we now lack a whole bunch of steam loco classes that should have been preserved. They were never appreciated until it was too late and they had all gone for scrap. And now people spend shed-loads of money building replicas from scratch. Chris 'Preserving' a loco is one thing. 'Preserving' an entire train that is 20-odd vehicles long is quite another. Who would pay for it, pay to 'preserve' it, pay to keep it and so on and, if running, pay to go on it… and where would it run, if that is what real 'preservation' is supposed to mean? As for the word 'preserve', just look at the amount of rolling stock in private and public hands that is lying around untouched since purchase - that does not equate to my interpretation of 'preservation'. The real world requires an immense amount of money and effort to do these things: sentimental desires do not generate cash, unfortunately. I remember a couple of decades ago the short-lived wave of enthusiasm for 'preserving' the former HMS Ark Royal by those who failed to understand that, if the government could no longer afford to run the ship, private individuals, even in a large group, would be even less able to do so. Eurostar would not be in the same league in terms of straight cash, but the main stakes would be the same. Saving a single power car for a museum, or a single coach - perhaps to show its articulated bogies - is not so absurd, but the entire train? That's fairy land. Edited November 1, 2016 by olivegreen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Higgs Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 (edited) 'Preserving' a loco is one thing. 'Preserving' an entire train that is 20-odd vehicles long is quite another. Who would pay for it, pay to 'preserve' it, pay to keep it and so on and, if running, pay to go on it… and where would it run, if that is what real 'preservation' is supposed to mean? As for the word 'preserve', just look at the amount of rolling stock in private and public hands that is lying around untouched since purchase - that does not equate to my interpretation of 'preservation'. The real world requires an immense amount of money and effort to do these things: sentimental desires do not generate cash, unfortunately. I remember a couple of decades ago the short-lived wave of enthusiasm for 'preserving' the former HMS Ark Royal by those who failed to understand that, if the government could no longer afford to run the ship, private individuals, even in a large group, would be even less able to do so. Eurostar would not be in the same league in terms of straight cash, but the main stakes would be the same. Saving a single power car for a museum, or a single coach - perhaps to show its articulated bogies - is not so absurd, but the entire train? That's fairy land. A similar question is going to arise for HSTs. They are not exactly suited to preservation lines, nevertheless it's one of the iconic trains of our age, just as influential as Kings and Castles for the history of the Great Western line for example. So where would such a train run in preservation? Probably on main line specials. And only there does it really give an impression of its days of pomp. I was at Didcot last week and looked at the electrification going up (surely in this day and age they could have come up with less opressive gantries BTW) and realised that soon the sight of HSTs hammering through is going to be consigned to history, just as Dean Singles, Stars, Castles, Kings and Westerns before them. A bit sad, although I suspect Brunel would have approved of progress. If (part of) a 373 would be preserved, the mainline is where it would run. We are getting more and more electrification, so it is not so restricted today as it once was to preserve an electric. And if items are lying around untouched since purchase, no it's not preservation but at least future preservation is still a possibility and no irreversible decisions have been made. Barry scrapyard unwittingly saved a whole bunch of stuff from oblivion, although you could hardly have called it preservation. Sentiment does generate cash incidentally, that's why people are riding around on preserved lines, their sentiment and nostalgia. It's hardly as though those lines take people to work, or perform the same funcation they did in the past. Sentiment also produces people working for free. It's just how much it generates that matters. The Ark Royal is a bit different as it's not passenger carrying and has no real way to generate any revenue. You might imagine it in dry dock like the Victory, but very few ships are so preserved. The Waverley is something more akin to railway preservation. Edited November 1, 2016 by Chris Higgs Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Reorte Posted November 1, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 1, 2016 A similar question is going to arise for HSTs. They are not exactly suited to preservation lines, nevertheless it's one of the iconic trains of our age, just as influential as Kings and Castles for the history of the Great Western line for example. So where would such a train run in preservation? A reduced length set could probably run on preserved lines happily enough. It would look a bit out of place (I've seen a video of an HST on a railtour up the Keighley and Worth Valley, which certainly looks strange) but is that any stranger than large steam locos running on preserved railways? The HSTs probably have a better future in preservation than anything electric, such as the 373s, which really will struggle to find anywhere they can run, even if they could be shortened (I've no idea). Being iconic will no doubt help them too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bedders Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 I could see a preserved HST set doing good business on private hire. One would've come in very useful for the national Armed Forces day at Cleethorpes this year. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted November 1, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 1, 2016 that 'something' may have been the leicester to burton route (if they came that way), nothing uses it beyond barton hill so its notoriously slippy especially this time of year and very easy to put flats on vehicles it does sound on the setting back video that the brakes are on for a short while after it begins setting back, perhaps they take a while to come off fully, im not quite sure what the braking system is on them as there are no translator vehicles, just piped direct to the loco by the look of it The brake control is electric but they will work with a normal auto airbrake loco with no trouble at all however the WSP is no doubt inoperative and if the Driver on the hauling loco is unused to handling such a train a heavy application for whatever reason could lead to flats. As far as I'm aware there were never any problems with flats developing on them due to loco haulage back when they were being delivered/in service and the only flats (or worse) I've ever heard about were due to seized wheelsets. All of which suggests to me that for some reason the Driver had been a bit heavy handed with the brake somewhere or had some other reason to put the brake in very hard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 I was at Didcot last week and looked at the electrification going up (surely in this day and age they could have come up with less opressive gantries BTW) The GWML gantries are a definite triumph of substance over style. NR is taking no chances of a repeat of the budget gantries used on the ECML. The knitting comes down whenever there is a stiff breeze. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmsforever Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 Wonder how long the 373,s parked on the old link from HS1 to the ordinary network in Kent will last before the vandals get at them? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lochnagar Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 Havant had chance to read the whole thread but heres my two penneth. The 373s were built for one purpose, and cannot be used on any other UK services due to their design. And more critically, the air in the tunnel is salty.. so these things have suffered from corrosion at a far higher rate then other stock (possibly due to cheap materials or bad prep at the time but lets ignore that as we don't know). Some parts of a set that I saw a few years ago you could (if you wished with some strong gloves) put your fist through the rust in parts of the underfloor structure. In my opinion at the time, some vehicles should have been deemed 'unfit to travel' as structural rigidity had in some cases been lost, but apparently not. Im assuming the worst affected sets are getting scrapped first. So I'm my opinion although it's unusual for relatively 'young' units to go for scrap, this may be an underlying reason. The cost of a mid life rebuild, plus fixing the above corrosion issue, means it's not cost effective and possibly not viable anyway. I noticed the wheel flats too, must have had a heavy brake application en route! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Godfrey Glyn Posted November 3, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 3, 2016 Lochnagar wrote - "Havant had chance to read the whole thread but heres my two penneth." That is typical of the people in Havant, they never take up the opportunities offered to them - probably never seen a 373 running through the station though. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornish trains jez Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 (edited) As many no doubt seen plenty of videos online now of the first eurostar delivery run to the scrap yard. For example this one here show the sets final shunt: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PYij506zFk Still struggling to get my head round this. I understand why its hard to reuse them but still seems an awful waste. I cant see how its cheaper for eurostar to buy new sets and still keep such a small fleet of the originals. I would have though cheaper to retain more of the originals and buy just a small fleet of the new ones where they are specifically required (such as forthcoming services to NL I understand). Shame it's not the Eurostar taking the class 66 to the scrap heap! Edited November 3, 2016 by cornish trains jez Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Higgs Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 (edited) Lochnagar wrote - "Havant had chance to read the whole thread but heres my two penneth." That is typical of the people in Havant, they never take up the opportunities offered to them - probably never seen a 373 running through the station though. All the more reason for them to subscribe to preserving one. Does the third-rail capability on these units still function? Given they possess overhead as well, we could use them on Thameslink! Chris Edited November 3, 2016 by Chris Higgs Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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