Built in Britain

[Dava]

I’m old enough to remember some 45 years ago, taking the then-daring  step of unscrewing the body of a Triang-Hornby ‘Winston Churchill’ Pacific loco, and being impressed by the moulded words, ‘Built in Britain’. Just like the real thing. That dates me. Never looked back.

 

For decades since then, of course, we’ve been seduced by the charms of locos and practically everything model rail being manufactured variously in Italy, Germany (West and East), France, Yugoslavia (Mehano), Japan for your expensive brass, and latterly China. And, of course, the USA for North American stuff.

 

So ever since MainLine and Airfix pointed the way in the late 70’s, the  British model train habit has been satisfied by the Chinese factories turning out batches of superdetailed, comparatively low-cost models for Bachmann, Hornby, Heljan and a growing number of smaller firms. Almost all of us like to buy [and complain on this site about] the stuff, and the growth of RTR Gauge 0 is the latest phenomenon.

 

But there is a downside, which the sharp drop in the £ and other developments we know about but are endlessly discussed elsewhere bring into sharp focus. Those Chinese imports are going to cost steadily more. The lead times for batch delivery are getting longer – about 6 years for your Dapol 08, I think? And quite a lot of uncertainty over what you’re going to get, when it will arrive, and whether spares etc will be available.

 

So maybe it’s time to value those Built in Britain again? Even if components such as motors, gears, fixings and chips are imported.

 

Steve at the Little Loco Co. is promising a British-built Gauge 0 shunter as his next project. I look forward to that. Union Mills are traditional Manx built-to-last locos for N gauge. Then there’s Peco, Slaters’, Skytrex and a host of independent kit and product manufacturers who make and sell here. And there’s huge ingenuity from 3D printers, laser etchers and others with innovative new-tech products.

 

Could Built in Britain be on the way back?

 

Dava

[frobisher]

Could Built in Britain be on the way back?

If anything, it's getting less likely. We have a relatively high cost of living compared to wages and that's not going to change any time soon. We don't have any comparable industries that production could be piggy backed off of any more either for the same reasons model railway production moved to the far east.

[Nearholmer]

There is one significant model railway producer that, I am pretty certain, has never deviated from the Made in Britain path: Roundhouse.

 

OK, not mainstream 00, but beautifully made, in a slightly over-engineered way, in Doncaster.

 

http://www.roundhouse-eng.com

 

And, if your first reaction is that they are expensive, can I give you two thoughts:

 

1. They are built like a BSH, so will be good as family heirlooms; and,

 

2. Their "basic" locos are about the price of four 00 plastic Pacifics.

 

So, it can be done in Britain.

 

Kevin (no connection, except as a jolly satisfied customer)

[jjb1970]

I find this quite an interesting question. The consensus is that production of model trains is not viable in the UK however as noted there are some niche producers who manage to manufacture in the UK and whilst not at the bargain end of the spectrum don't look that expensive these days. With rising prices in China and a devalued pound I think the old assumptions are being challenged. ViTrains manufacture in Italy and are competitive on price with made in China rivals despite Italy also being a high wage Western European country. With smart design (by which I mean designing the models to minimise manual assembly work and smart tooling) I think it could be possible. The question is would anybody want to risk the investment? And more problematically we have a skills shortage to compound the wage issue (inadequate skills and high wages seldom complement each other in a positive way) and no idea where we are going which makes investing in anything in this country rather risky just now. 

[andyman7]

I think items such as locos will struggle, but there are many ancillary items that are potentially suited to domestic production - Dapol still make their wagons and kits in the UK; Peco still manufacture in the UK, and similar items that don't require the same level of labour-intensive hand finishing.

The world has moved on but when I look at my collection of models and model toys from the 50s, 60s and 70s, I see the products of Liverpool, Margate, Wrexham, Northampton, Swansea, Wandsworth, Enfield, Richmond, Potters Bar, Havant, Canterbury and I am sad for what has been lost.

[Dava]

Just to add that there are some quite long established British loco builders additional to those mentioned, including:

 

http://www.ooworks.co.uk/ Batch built 00 steam locos

 

http://www.cjmmodels.co.uk/ Fine scale N gauge diesel and electric

 

Both are as you might expect more expensive than the mass-produced equivalent - but they sell all they make.

 

Kevin mentions live steam. I have a catalogue from Silver Crest models who are building a batch of LMS Jubilees in 5" gauge for GBP 10995 each...80% of the batch ordered in a month. I declined as, well, it was a nice idea.

 

These are niche producers, but they are each creating demand for their products.

 

Dava

[Nimbus]

The world has moved on but when I look at my collection of models and model toys from the 50s, 60s and 70s, I see the products of Liverpool, Margate, Wrexham, Northampton, Swansea, Wandsworth, Enfield, Richmond, Potters Bar, Havant, Canterbury and I am sad for what has been lost.

 

The same happens to me when I flip through my collection of 7" Singles. Subtle production variations serve as reminders of just how many plants were turning out records in the UK. In some cases, it's even possible to identify the person who operated the lathe to make the master platter. A comparative wasteland now - the UK couldn't even maintain control of the 'software' side of its industry in the post-vinyl era.

 

The Nim.

[Jol Wilkinson]

"Built in Britain" is alive and reasonably healthy, as shown by the model makers and kit suppliers.

 

Whether that will ever become the case for RTR products is very unlikely. We have largely lost the skilled workforce that would produce the tooling and the businesses that employed them. The "corporate" knowledge and skills are therefore not readily available  and so it would cost much more to get production underway in the UK. The wage cost for production is probably going to be less of an issue but the startup investment involved to provide new equipment, etc. will probably make it non viable.

 

While the RTR buyer will probably accept (albeit with much grumbling) increases in prices caused by higher costs in China and the falling value of the pound, it is most unlikely that they would pay substantially more for a UK built product of comparable standard.

[Nearholmer]

Assuming that mega-fine plastic-moulding has to be part of making modern r-t-r ( and indeed a stack of other products), makes me ask whether or not there is any product using this technology that is made in The UK right now?

 

I've just had a quick think about all the finely-mounded plastic things in the house, and none of them seem to be made in the U.K. Thinking about cars: do car makers source fine plastic bits from within the UK?

 

I'm pondering this for two reasons:

 

- it impacts the r-t-r made in Britain (surely that should be the UK) question; and,

 

- with Brexit looming, it is a b scary thought that we might not have productive capacity or skills in a technology so integral to modern life as this one.

 

Kevin

[Ozexpatriate]

- with Brexit looming, it is a b scary thought that we might not have productive capacity or skills in a technology so integral to modern life as this one.

I don't think there's a country in the world that is truly self-sufficient in terms of producing 'all the stuff' of modern life. China of course comes closest.

 

Most things manufactured in China are designed elsewhere. They are of course trying hard to develop a design capability. Additionally, despite their large geographic size, right now they are heavily dependent on other countries for raw materials.

 

If you look at the thing most symbolic of modern life - the mobile phone - the skills and materials needed to synthesize one starting from raw materials (including rare earth metals for batteries), including the ability to design and manufacture the semiconductors, assemble the product and produce the whole software stack, no one country currently provides all of this technology today - though it is possible in the US. Having said that, the US has outsourced much of the 'doing'.

[andyman7]

Lesney was set up in the immediate post war period like so many other light engineering firms, using knowledge and skills acquired or refined during the war. It made die-cast components. One of the engineers as a sideline realised that the same technology could produce small diecast model toys and Matchbox was born. Soon the production of Matchbox models dwarfed that of industrial castings. In 1982 Lesney went into liquidation. Matchbox toys were sold on and went on to be made in the far east, however Lesney was hived off as a manufacturer of industrial castings and still exists in the UK. Full circle....

[Dagworth]

The same happens to me when I flip through my collection of 7" Singles. Subtle production variations serve as reminders of just how many plants were turning out records in the UK. In some cases, it's even possible to identify the person who operated the lathe to make the master platter. A comparative wasteland now - the UK couldn't even maintain control of the 'software' side of its industry in the post-vinyl era.

 

The Nim.

A Porky Prime Cut

 

Andi

[Steamport Southport]

Porky Prime? I'm sure I've got one of those wagons....

 

 

 

Jason

[Nimbus]

A Porky Prime Cut

 

That's one, from the later era. But in the case of Decca, the engineer was coded into the matrix number, which Decca engraved with a particular precision. Philips and Polydor matrix numbers identified the particular lathe used.

 

The Nim.

[Nearholmer]

"I don't think there's a country in the world that is truly self-sufficient in terms of producing 'all the stuff' of modern life."

 

True, and it has been true for a surprisingly long time; I think that the main reason that the Romans decided to come to the damp and chilly isles of Britain was to secure access to metals like tin, which were vital to some of the 'stuff' of their lives.

 

But, I still find it worrying that the UK hasn't (unless someone can tell me I'm wrong) invested in productive capacity in high-precision plastic-moulding.

 

Let's hope the UK can continue to provide high-value stuff like chip-design, to compensate for the things we dont do.

 

K

[Dava]

Chip design? That would be the excellent ARM Holdings, proudly based in Cambridge, now owned by the Japanese SoftBank. Founder Hermann Hauser was not amused....

 

Dava

[Nearholmer]

Yes, it would be, and, yes, I too was not a happy chappy when it was recapitalised from abroad.

 

K

[Ian Kirk]

Hi,

Still producing plastic mouldings in bonny Scotland albeit on 1990s technology. I don't normally mention the O gauge coach range that I do in semi retirement on here in case it is thought to be advertising but because they are produced here I can't remember when they last increased in price. Glad to say that the currency rates won't bother me at all and I  suspect that the same will apply to other small manufacturers.

 

The CAD drawing to injection mould tool technology that is used in China could be brought back here and producing the mouldings is comparatively easy the problem is the hand assembly work and finishing required to produce the quality of model that is now expected. It would be interesting to compare the number of separate components on a Triang loco with the component list for a current model of a similar prototype. Then there is finishing, the early loco was probably moulded in self coloured plastic the current version paint finished. You can see at once why the cost of employing someone to do all of this is critical.  Workers in this country expect a living wage and rightly so. It can be done but at a price and as far as I can see people are complaining at the current level of prices.

 

However with changes in currency, increased wages in China and increasing transport costs I forsee a time when someone will consider brining this back. Don't look for lower prices though.

 

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

[BG John]

We could be given the option to assemble and paint them ourselves. It might encourage more people to make stuff if they saw how much they could save. I imagine the saving could be a lot more than the old Tri-ang CKD tax dodge, although more difficult to do.

[RANGERS]

We could be given the option to assemble and paint them ourselves. It might encourage more people to make stuff if they saw how much they could save. I imagine the saving could be a lot more than the old Tri-ang CKD tax dodge, although more difficult to do.

Much though I love the idea, I suspect the labour involved in sorting and packing the bits would wipe out a sizeable chunk of any savings in assembly.

[Jol Wilkinson]

We could be given the option to assemble and paint them ourselves. It might encourage more people to make stuff if they saw how much they could save. I imagine the saving could be a lot more than the old Tri-ang CKD tax dodge, although more difficult to do.

John,

 

It's painting and lining that is often cited as why people don't build models from kits. Looking at some of the threads in the modelling sections of RMweb, it also appears tyat a lot of people don't have the experience, skills, common sense, etc. to maintain and repair their existing RTR models, so the likelyhood of them assembling something seems pretty unlikely.

 

Jol

[BernardTPM]

John,

It's painting and lining that is often cited as why people don't build models from kits. Looking at some of the threads in the modelling sections of RMweb, it also appears tyat a lot of people don't have the experience, skills, common sense, etc. to maintain and repair their existing RTR models, so the likelyhood of them assembling something seems pretty unlikely.

Jol

One of the points with the CKD kits was that the parts were finished in the same way as a factory built model - obviously in those days that meant pre-coloured plastic and heat printing but nowadays painting and tampo printing would be the way. The only difference with the coaches was that they supplied special nuts and bolts for fitting the bogies rather than brass rivets which would have required a specialist tool. Of course the trouble is a model to current day standards would take a lot more work to put together. Even the current Dapol 'CKD' coaches have a lot more parts than the old Tri-ang ones and that's late '70s 'state of the art'.

[No Decorum]

ViTrains tried to cut costs by leaving the purchaser to fit lots of detail which other manufacturers would supply already fitted. As I recall, the idea was not popular. One advantage of having the parts ready-fitted is that the manufacturer has to make sure that they fit properly and easily. It makes no sense to have expensive assembly workers fettling small parts.

[Phil Parker]

We could be given the option to assemble and paint them ourselves. It might encourage more people to make stuff if they saw how much they could save. I imagine the saving could be a lot more than the old Tri-ang CKD tax dodge, although more difficult to do.

 

Too many "modellers" who can't/won't even plug pre-made detail parts supplied with a model into pre-drilled holes nowadays. My guess is that the current businesses offering weathering services would just add assembly to their range.

 

That and modern models are far more complicated than Triang ones used to be. Take a look at the 89 parts for a Bachmann wagon - that's more than 2 CKD locos!

[BG John]

Too many "modellers" who can't/won't even plug pre-made detail parts supplied with a model into pre-drilled holes nowadays. My guess is that the current businesses offering weathering services would just add assembly to their range.

 

That and modern models are far more complicated than Triang ones used to be. Take a look at the 89 parts for a Bachmann wagon - that's more than 2 CKD locos!

I suggested it as a lower price option, not a replacement for RTR. Those who can't or won't make things can pay whatever high price the RTR version comes at, while those of use who like to build things can do it ourselves, save money, and adapt or remake parts if we want.