Croydon Tram Accident

[rob D2]

If you don't have the facts it is wise not to say anything which could turn out to be wrong.

 

If inappropriate content is posted, it should be reported to the moderators and deleted.

 

What is infuriating is the frequent request for topics to be locked. Which achieves the exact opposite result -- incorrect details are locked in place and cannot be amended, and will be indexed on Google for 100 years.

 

Martin.

I'm not gonna worry about Google finding what I said in a modelling thread in a hundred years TBH.

And that's a bit of an oxymoron anyway , because might think they know the facts but unless they were in the vicinity or a responder they won't

Edited November 9, 2016 by rob D2

[Oldddudders]

The factuality of the incident reporting is flawed though, which is why cautious interpretation is best. Eye witnesses suggested the poor driver had suffered some form of health event. Yet plod has arrested him. They would hardly have done so if the chap had needed medical attention for that event, although arrest may be at a hospital bedside. It seems unlikely he would have walked away if so many of his passengers were seriously knocked about and much worse. 

[martin_wynne]

I'm not gonna worry about Google finding what I said in a modelling thread in a hundred years TBH.

 

You should do. You are able to build accurate models because someone had the foresight to record the details, make the drawings, take the photos, years ago.

 

It is irresponsible to leave a trail of inaccuracies and errors behind you, to cause grief to modellers and others who come after you.

 

If you make a mistake in a post you should go back and correct it -- months later if necessary -- and you can't do that if the damn topic has been locked in the meantime.

 

Martin.

[Colin_McLeod]

I'm not gonna worry about Google finding what I said in a modelling thread in a hundred years TBH.

And that's a bit of an oxymoron anyway , because might think they know the facts but unless they were in the vicinity or a responder they won't

Polite request: Look up the meaning of oxymoron then amend your post.

[coachmann]

The first thing that occured to me was, are tram bodies built like buses or like railway coaches? Railway coaches are built from heavy gauge metal to (hopefully) withstand known derailment parameters. If a tram built like a bus overturns on a roadway it could slide along on a smooth surface. If such a tram overturns on sleeper track, impact damage would possibly be much greater and there is the risk of the lightweight body panels being pierced by rails while broken windows with large gaps beneath them (due to rail height) could add to casualties.

Edited November 9, 2016 by coachmann

[gismorail]

That's an interesting question coachman. Surely the builders have conducted tests to see the effect of such an accident. we shall await for the experts to consider this point me thinks

[pete_mcfarlane]

My understanding is that trams are built to road vehicle crash-worthiness standards. The Rotherham tram trains (class 399) are built to rail standards and are considerably (about 50%) heavier than standard Sheffield trams. 

[roythebus]

Latest news from BBC Radio Kent is 7 dead as confiming previous statements on here, and the arrested driver has been charged with manslaughter.

 

In my first post on this I quoted a friend of my son who was on the crash tram and he was of the opinion that it appeared that the driver had suffered some sort of blackout.

 

My son was not on the tram. However, in the tradition of railway "black humour" the mild p*** taking on his friend's FB page has started!

[Derekstuart]

EDIT: To remove duplicate information.

Edited November 9, 2016 by Derekstuart

[ejstubbs]

Latest news from BBC Radio Kent is 7 dead as confiming previous statements on here, and the arrested driver has been charged with manslaughter.

 

The latest BTP update at this point states:

 

A 42-year-old man from Beckenham has been arrested on suspicion of manslaughter and is currently in police custody.

 

Note that they do not identify the arrested person as the driver of the tram.  Note also that "arrested on suspicion of" does not mean "charged with".

Edited November 9, 2016 by ejstubbs

[meil]

Aren't those civil offences that are judged on the balance of probabilities as opposed to criminal offences requiring to be proven "beyond reasonable doubt"?

I'm not a lawyer but someone reading this must know the law.

 

No they are crimes. Where the burden of proof is reversed it is usually in relation to particular crimes where the information is uniquely within the accused's knowledge. An example is a TV licence. If you have one you can produce it and the law places the burden of producing it(is proving you have one) on the licence holder. The other crimes mentioned are in the same category.

[meil]

The latest BTP update at this point states:

 

 

A 42-year-old man from Beckenham has been arrested on suspicion of manslaughter and is currently in police custody.

 

Note that they do not identify the arrested person as the driver of the tram.  Note also that "arrested on suspicion of" does not mean "charged with".

Charging always follows arrest because as soon as a person is charged they can no longer be questioned .

[Geoff Endacott]

Polite request: Look up the meaning of oxymoron then amend your post.

 

Are you being cruel to be kind by pointing this out?

 

Geoff Endacott

[Andy Kirkham]

Do trams not have some kind of dead man's handle so as to stop the vehicle if the driver is incapacitated?

[jamie92208]

Charging always follows arrest because as soon as a person is charged they can no longer be questioned .

Not necessarily.   An arrested person can be questioned for a certain length of time, usually 24 hours but longer in certain circumstances.  Then they must either be charged or released.  Further questioning after charge is only allowed in special circumstances and usually relates to other offences than that charged.   The clock can be stopped by releasing the arrested person on bail with a duty to report back to the police at a future date for further questioning.  Once the person answers to their bail the clock starts ticking again.

 

Manslaughter is a serious offence but it would still be quite normal for the person to be released on bail, usually after an initial interview, whilst further investigations take place.  That is quite normal for offences involving death caused by motor vehicles.  The person would normally only be charged with a serious offence after the Crown Prosecution Service had been consulted.

 

I hope that this makes sense.

 

In the meantime my thoughts go out to the families of the dead and injured and the people involved in dealing with the incident.

 

Jamie

[edcayton]

Do trams not have some kind of dead man's handle so as to stop the vehicle if the driver is incapacitated?

 

Yes, but the brakes operate on the wheels or on magnetic blocks that grip the track. As soon as the vehicle starts to topple over these will have virtually no effect.

 

Ed

[Gwiwer]

Myself and my tramway colleagues here in Melbourne, which operates the largest tram system in the world, are stunned and shocked at the news from Croydon.  None of us can recall any similar incident in tramway history anywhere.  The last time anyone died aboard a British tram was in Glasgow back in 1959.

 

Our thoughts are with all those involved in any way from innocent witnesses and local residents to the distressed bereaved and injured and those whose task it is to assist, recover and clean up.

 

Due process will determine the cause.  It is wrong to speculate.  It is of significance that the driver has been arrested and apparently charged with multiple counts of manslaughter.  That, too, is unprecedented in tramway history.  Accounts emerging into the public domain from passengers accord with my own thoughts about how this happened but we must let the RAIB do their job.

[ozzyo]

Yes, but the brakes operate on the wheels or on magnetic blocks that grip the track. As soon as the vehicle starts to topple over these will have virtually no effect.

 

Ed

 

I have seen these magnetic blocks mentioned a number of times before that grip the track. So how are they suppose to work?  

 

1] gripping the sides of the rail, that's not going to work in any town centre. Running in the streets. (how would you get to the sides of the rail?).

 

2] gripping the top of the rail, on a running line, that would have to be a number of very big magnets and all of them would slow the tram down.

 

3] the only magnets that I know of are the ones that can over ride the divers control, like A.W.S. or the new one A.W.T.P.M.S. (have I got this one right) but do tramway systems have this built in?

 

4] It sounds like your thinking of something that toy trains had in the 1960s.

 

5] are you thinking of, reostatic braking? Using the traction motors as brakes and turning it into electric power?

 

 

I do hope that the RTIB can come up with the cause of this accident in a short length of time, as it could impact on all of the tramway systems that could be affected by the caused of this accident.

 

My hart goes out to all of the people that this has affected.  

 

OzzyO.

[Dagworth]

Track brakes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Track_brake

 

Andi

 

[Dagworth]

Myself and my tramway colleagues here in Melbourne, which operates the largest tram system in the world, are stunned and shocked at the news from Croydon.  None of us can recall any similar incident in tramway history anywhere.  The last time anyone died aboard a British tram was in Glasgow back in 1959.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheltenham_and_District_Light_Railway

 

"The Cheltenham and District Light Railway operated an electric tramway service in Cheltenham between 1901 and 1930.

 

Construction began in 1901 and services started on the initial route from Lansdown to Cleeve Hill on 22 August 1901. The opening day was marred by an accident when one tram ran away down Cleeve Hill and overturned, resulting the deaths of two employees."

 

Andi

Edited November 10, 2016 by Dagworth

[roundhouse]

Ozzy

 

 

 

Many trams have a block that drops onto the top of the rail.

 

here is a video of how htey work. I dont know what the Croydon trams have though.

 

[david.hill64]

Magnetic track brakes work by generating sliding friction between the rail head and the track brake. The magnets are used to induce the attractive force that provides the vertical load but are essentially another form of friction brake. They are standard fitting on trams which may need very high rates of deceleration in a street environment (for example when a pedestrian walks out in front of the tram.)

 

I experienced one in service once in Sheffield. The driver was anticipating the clearing of traffic lights and for the most part got it right with the light changing to white as he got close: except for the one that didn't. He applied the emergency brake and the effect was dramatic. There was a push chair opposite me. Fortunately that lady had removed her toddler from the chair before it went sailing through the relatively empty car and crashing into the front and breaking.

 

Magnetic track brakes were (are?) also standard on German coaches cleared for speeds above 160km/h. This is because DB uses a set signal spacing irrespective of gradient and high retardation rates are required to achieve braking distances on falling gradients. As rubbing the rail at 200km/h is not conducive to long rail life, the Germans have often applied a different form or magnetic track brake - the eddy current brake. This one works on the principle of generating a high frequency magnetic field between the eddy current brake and the railhead, converting the kinetic energy of the train into heat in the rails. There is no contact. It is one reason why DB uses slab track extensively on high speed lines: it gives greater lateral stiffness than ballasted track and can better resist the buckling forces that result from heating rails.

 

BR tried magnetic track brakes on a Merseyrail unit (507?) to see if they would overcome the adhesion problems caused by leaf contamination. (They didn't).

 

Presumably either on the grounds that BR didn't know what it was doing or by following some Year 0 philosophy, RSSB seems to be proposing the same trial of magnetic track brakes now.

[jamie92208]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheltenham_and_District_Light_Railway

 

"The Cheltenham and District Light Railway operated an electric tramway service in Cheltenham between 1901 and 1930.

 

Construction began in 1901 and services started on the initial route from Lansdown to Cleeve Hill on 22 August 1901. The opening day was marred by an accident when one tram ran away down Cleeve Hill and overturned, resulting the deaths of two employees."

 

Andi

 

There have been several runaways in tramway history that caused several deaths.  One was in May 1923 on Churwell Hill in Morley not gar from where I live where a tram ran away down the hill and overturned at the bottom, 7 were killed.   There was another run away in Dewsbury but I don't  have the full details to hand.

 

Jamie

Edited November 10, 2016 by jamie92208

[Rivercider]

There have been several runaways in tramway history that caused several deaths.  One was in May 1923 on Churwell Hill in Morley not gar from where I live where a tram ran away down the hill and overturned at the bottom, 7 were killed.   There was another run away in Dewsbury but I don't  have the full details to hand.

 

Jamie

In Exeter in 1917 a tram ran away down Fore Street hill and finished up on the Exe Bridge on its side, one passenger died,

 

cheers 

[beast66606]

There have been several runaways in tramway history that caused several deaths.  One was in May 1923 on Churwell Hill in Morley not gar from where I live where a tram ran away down the hill and overturned at the bottom, 7 were killed.   There was another run away in Dewsbury but I don't  have the full details to hand.

 

Jamie

 

12 October 1915

 

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/ticket-to-disaster-for-tram-passengers-1-6767025

 

(It's a local newspaper and so the page is chocked full of adverts I'm afraid)