Croydon Tram Accident

[Free At Last]

I have seen it reported on the BBC news that the driver was released from hospital and was arrested for seven counts of manslaughter

I have read that on here some posts ago.

[Gwiwer]

I'm not advocating speculation on this, but just commenting on what I saw in one of the pictures published. There is a view from inside the tunnel, looking towards the tram, with the tunnel lights on. Obviously taken with a telephoto lens which does given "distance distortion"  but just look at the way the rail is not so smooth, it twists and bends all over the place! As one who is familiar with Blackpool, I am only too aware of the excellent condition of the present new track there, but can compare it with certain sections of the old track just before renewal. It didn't seem to be as bad as that in the photo?

 

Stewart

 

You yourself acknowledge the distortion which is inevitable on a telephoto shot of this kind.  Compare with similar taken on the NR network (particularly those lovely "golden rail" sunrise / sunset views)  where you will see much the same on tracks passed for up to 125mph.  

 

I know from having worked on the tramways here in Melbourne that track, whether ballast road or street running, is often less than perfect yet is always capable of supporting safe passage of trams at or below the permitted maximum speed.

 

We do not know the cause though many of us are alluding to much the same thoughts.  The tram has emerged from a lengthy tunnel which is permanently lit on a dark morning onto a stretch of track which is open-air and unlit and at which location there is a sharp curve with 20kmh (12mph) speed restriction.  It would be normal to expect to feel braking upon emerging from the tunnel if not before.  Several passenger comments are already in the public domain to the effect that thy felt no braking effort at all.

[Colin_McLeod]

I see the BBC are already starting scaremongering about the safety of trams. At least on this occasion their resident 'expert' on all things rail is trying to put things in perspective.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37941085

Which part of that BBC article is scaremongering?

[ejstubbs]

 

I find the way the BBC habitually turn to Christian Wolmar for comment regarding anything involving rail-borne transportation quite scary.  Has he got compromising photos of the Director General or something?

 

I think they should add a disclaimer: other rail experts are available.

Edited November 11, 2016 by ejstubbs

[Edwin_m]

No need for a crude automated speed check system, they're already on the market. Systems like ZUB are in essence a count-down timer, triggered by track magnets. The distance between the magnets determine the max. allowed speed on that section. If the vehicle passes the 2nd magnet before the timer reaches zero, it's speeding and thus an emergency brake application is triggered. Using electromagnets, multiple speed limits can be monitored (higher one for straight, the other(s) for LH and/or RH points).

 

I'm not familiar with Tramlink, but looking at the routes it might be wise to install a basic block system on the  former railway formations. We have a similar system here, Randstadrail, which partially runs in the city (Den Haag) on street level, then transitions to a former railway route of a suburban railway (Zoetermeer). From the junction it enters the former railway line, it's under ZUB supervision, the whole way. Speeds are up to 80 kph (50 mph). Passenger number targets have been met years ahead of predictions and continue to grow. The initial fleet of 54 was quickly expanded to 72 as the manufacturer was about to shut down the production line. It's not enough (partially as some have been used for different lines, although that is now partially reversed).

If speed supervision is needed, I think a railway-standard and railway-cost system should be exactly what we want to avoid.  For example, assuming reception is good enough on exiting the tunnel it should be possible to supervise speed purely on board using GPS and have a list of locations where particular speeds need to be enforced, which would link into the existing emergency stop circuit. 

[Bernard Lamb]

 

I find the way the BBC habitually turn to Christian Wolmar for comment regarding anything involving rail-borne transportation quite scary.  Has he got compromising photos of the Director General or something?

 

I think they should add a disclaimer: other rail experts are available.

That seems to be the norm for the BBC.

I know two people who are trundled out whenever specialized knowledge is required in their particular field. 

I  see certain other faces crop up on a very regular basis.

CW it would seem is just one of a group of experts that the BBC have on hand at short notice.

Bernard

[JeffP]

Experts? I see their "science editor" is one Maggie Philbin, ex Multi-coloured swapshop presenter.......

[Titan]

Experts? I see their "science editor" is one Maggie Philbin, ex Multi-coloured swapshop presenter.......

 

Did she not present 'Tomorrows World' too?

[Arthur]

 

It'd be easier to find a Trump supporter at a LibDem rally than a science graduate in BBC news. Most of their journalists have degrees in medieval poetry or whatever so their 'science editors' almost inevitably have an arts background.

[Oldddudders]

It'd be easier to find a Trump supporter at a LibDem rally than a science graduate in BBC news. Most of their journalists have degrees in medieval poetry or whatever so their 'science editors' almost inevitably have an arts background.

 

And Wolmar was simply a broadsheet journo and bandwagon railway-basher in the past. I have no idea where he became respectable, let alone an authority.

[Colin_McLeod]

Is it the view of recent posters that the BBC man is wrong? If not then what is the problem?

[Reorte]

If speed supervision is needed, I think a railway-standard and railway-cost system should be exactly what we want to avoid.  For example, assuming reception is good enough on exiting the tunnel it should be possible to supervise speed purely on board using GPS and have a list of locations where particular speeds need to be enforced, which would link into the existing emergency stop circuit. 

But would a railway-like but not up to the same standard and cost system be viable and simpler? We've got mention of a tunnel here, which would presumably be a GPS blind spot for example. A simple TPWS-like system would work fine in a tunnel though. Now it may be true that by the time you've got it fully specced, designed, trialled and approved you've ended up with a railway-standard and railway-cost system, although the same would probably be true for a GPS-based one.

[PaulRhB]

This is incredibly sad with seven dead, more seriously injured and not out of danger yet.

And Wolmar was simply a broadsheet journo and bandwagon railway-basher in the past. I have no idea where he became respectable, let alone an authority.

Because anyone who knows anything won't due to company media policies which is right but mean it's mostly uninformed speculation.

Very sad and no doubt now the media will bay for the tpws equivalent, even though buses don't have it either.

[Oldddudders]

This is incredibly sad with seven dead, more seriously injured and not out of danger yet.

Because anyone who knows anything won't due to company media policies which is right but mean it's mostly uninformed speculation.

Very sad and no doubt now the media will bay for the tpws equivalent, even though buses don't have it either.

 

In the break-up of the industry more than 20 years ago, there were several disenchanted senior staff who had left the industry proper and were able to offer an informed opinion without being muzzled. I suppose those people have now faded away. Or found the media to be a very capricious friend. 

[Grovenor]

 A simple TPWS-like system would work fine in a tunnel though. Now it may be true that by the time you've got it fully specced, designed, trialled and approved you've ended up with a railway-standard and railway-cost system, although the same would probably be true for a GPS-based one.

Hence you are probably far better off buying an off the shelf system already in use for the same application, such as the ZUB mentioned by Dutch_Master above, could be installed much quicker as well with minimal development needs.

Regards

[w124bob]

A simple immediate solution would be a "Stop and Proceed" instruction before or in the tunnel which is propery policed. Not 100% fool proof, but it is at least something which can be implemented straight away with very minimal cost.

[Bernard Lamb]

Experts? I see their "science editor" is one Maggie Philbin, ex Multi-coloured swapshop presenter.......

Her name has come up before in discussions on the forum.

She was the presenter on a film made to promote the products for the company I was working for at one time.

She was very professional and had read up the background details and asked all the right questions and made an excellent job of it.

I remember that several posters had similar experiences regarding her technical knowledge and presentation skills.

I don't know if AY is willing to comment, but some thing in the back of my mind gives me a reason to think that CW was/is a member of this forum.

Bernard

[BR-Green]

I have read that on here some posts ago.

Maybe so when I posted it it took a while so I'm guessing so must've posted whilst it was loading onto the website

[martin_wynne]

RAIB update today, appeal for witnesses:

 

 https://www.gov.uk/government/news/fatal-tram-accident-in-croydon

[Gwiwer]

RAIB update today, appeal for witnesses:

 

 https://www.gov.uk/government/news/fatal-tram-accident-in-croydon

 

Normal RAIB process in a major investigation.  They would like to hear from as many people as possible to gain the fullest picture of what happened.  I receive RAIB alerts because I have requested them.  The final reports often make education reading.  The RAIB does not apportion blame; they only report on the cause(s) and identify necessary industry changes and learning points. 

[martin_wynne]

Christian Wolmar is the Labour candidate in the Richmond Park by-election (1st December):

 

 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-37885035

[pete_mcfarlane]

The worrying thing is that Labour may also have been using his as their tame rail expert. 

Edited November 11, 2016 by pete_mcfarlane

[peterfgf]

And Wolmar was simply a broadsheet journo and bandwagon railway-basher in the past. I have no idea where he became respectable, let alone an authority.

I've read his books.  Quite a lot of factual errors.  I think he relies on a team of researchers who obviously do not an engineering or scientific background.

His books have now gone down to the local Oxfam bookshop to make way for something better on bookshelves.

Peterfgf

[Edwin_m]

A system such as TPWS or ZUB, which relies on the timing between two locations, may be unsuitable for tram application because of the much more rapid changes of speed that are possible.  If needed on any street sections it would also be difficult to fit trackside equipment there. 

[PenrithBeacon]

After the dreadful deaths and injuries the thing that most concerns me is the fact that the tram fell over onto its side. One of the concerns in any railway accident is that the vehicles should not fall over because that causes far more passenger injuries than when they stay upright.

 

I wonder if these trams have been tested in such a scenario?

 

Regards