Hornby Class 87 - Confirmed Newly Tooled Version for 2017 !

[scouse889]

27 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

Was it that oddball though? Isn’t it the version that is now in the NRM collection?

 

Thats why I bought it, it looked nice……..better than purple 😉

 

Yes, it is in its current condition as preserved in the NRM, where it was residing in the far corner of station hall (coupled to a Blue Pullman Mk2) when I visited a couple of weeks ago.

[GordonC]

1 hour ago, boxbrownie said:

Was it that oddball though? Isn’t it the version that is now in the NRM collection?

 

Thats why I bought it, it looked nice……..better than purple 😉

 

it is, but oddball because its never worked a single train while in the condition modelled. At least its BR Blue so a prototypical livery even if it has era differences from when the rest of the class were painted like that

[GordonC]

1 hour ago, scouse889 said:

 

Totally agreed, especially when they keep talking about making the company more profitable but then produce odd models or model combinations: can I interest anyone in one of the 18 XC Mk3 SD vehicles, produced for a single set of power cars which require a rake of 7 coaches, now selling almost everywhere for as little as the £20 mark, and still not shifting? A brand new one sold on eBay the other day for £12.50 (excluding postage).

I think a big part of the problem is also this piecemeal approach - I think they need more joined-up thinking with their loco/coach/wagon ranges. Back to 87s, for instance, 87002 might have sold better if suitable rolling stock was announced at the same time to go with it (even if not in the new matching livery, they could have done debranded ex-First Scotrail sleepers/representations of day coaches). Also, why aren't there any blue/grey or Executive liveried Mk2/Mk3's to go with the forthcoming Executive 87, or even suitably numbered loco-hauled Swallows? That might have been better than the DRS Mk1 coach, or repeat runs of the single blue/grey and executive RBRs...

 

The difficulty of the Caledonian Sleeper 87002 would be the Mk3 sleepers they have tooling for were always due to be replaced fairly quickly with Mk5s which the 87 wouldn't work anyway. Would they have sold enough to make a production run worthwhile? Its probably difficult to say but sleeper models did seem to be popular in the past both for the Scottish and GWR sleepers. Probably still an easier sell than Floyd Class 56s 🤨

[john new]

2 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

Was it that oddball though? Isn’t it the version that is now in the NRM collection?

 

Thats why I bought it, it looked nice……..better than purple 😉

History of the sequence of the Stephenson named 87s is here if it helps. See https://www.stephensonloco.org.uk/Archived pages/Locos associated/SLS_loco_assoc_class87s.htm

 

[scouse889]

1 hour ago, GordonC said:

 

The difficulty of the Caledonian Sleeper 87002 would be the Mk3 sleepers they have tooling for were always due to be replaced fairly quickly with Mk5s which the 87 wouldn't work anyway. Would they have sold enough to make a production run worthwhile? Its probably difficult to say but sleeper models did seem to be popular in the past both for the Scottish and GWR sleepers. Probably still an easier sell than Floyd Class 56s 🤨

 

Hornby have announced rolling stock (in the 2021 and 2022 ranges) in the later Serco Caledonain Sleeper livery, which matches 87002. These are item numbers R40040, R40040A, R40195, R40228, R40228A. The first of these, the sleeper cars, R40040/A, are literally just arriving this week, with the rest (representations of the seating coaches) due later this year. So we will see how well they appear to sell, and this may answer your question. Several suppliers already seem to be sold out on pre-orders for these (Kernow, Derails - just two I checked). Sleepers do tend to sell well though as you say - go on eBay and try to buy a set of Kernow's GWR Night Riviera sleepers or day coaches!

I guess I come back to my earlier point though - if Hornby have decided that the loco and coaches should be modelled, why weren't they announced together??! Doesn't seem very joined-up thinking to me, as clearly the loco has been languishing on the shelves for a number of years which may be in part due to the fact that there has been no suitable rolling stock available RTR.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 17, 2022 by scouse889

[scouse889]

1 hour ago, GordonC said:

 

Probably still an easier sell than Floyd Class 56s 🤨

 

Now they were definitely oddball!!!! Who wishlisted one of them??! 🤔

 

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, scouse889 said:

 

Hornby have announced rolling stock (in the 2021 and 2022 ranges) in the later Serco Caledonain Sleeper livery, which matches 87002. These are item numbers R40040, R40040A, R40195, R40228, R40228A. The first of these, the sleeper cars, R40040/A, are literally just arriving this week, with the rest (representations of the seating coaches) due later this year. So we will see how well they appear to sell, and this may answer your question. Several suppliers already seem to be sold out on pre-orders for these (Kernow, Derails - just two I checked). Sleepers do tend to sell well though as you say - go on eBay and try to buy a set of Kernow's GWR Night Riviera sleepers or day coaches!

I guess I come back to my earlier point though - if Hornby have decided that the loco and coaches should be modelled, why weren't they announced together??! Doesn't seem very joined-up thinking to me, as clearly the loco has been languishing on the shelves for a number of years which may be in part due to the fact that there has been no suitable rolling stock available RTR.

Dont panic..

A lot of retailers stopped taking pre-orders for Hornby as they didnt seem to know what will actually arrive. Hornbys website is a good judge, they are still in stock there.. if they sell out, then let the panic set in, but so far this year, most stuff has not.

 

my guess is though the caledonian sleepers in the final “stag” livery will sell out, as everyone buys multiples, but the RLOs and BSOs will stick as most people only need 1 of each (i’m assuming they produce at equal quantities)… but with Accurascales 92, and 86401 from Heljan, and 87002 from Hornby youve a full suite of AC locos now to pull them, plus you can run them with Freightliner class 90’s (powerhaul and original), and they ran both ECML and WCML in this livery, so next to an 800 and a 390 works, LM 350, as does TPE mk5’s and a 68…, of course the new Sleeper mk5’s ran paralell for a while.

 

As for blue/grey and intercity, unusure, both are repeats.

Edited May 17, 2022 by adb968008

[boxbrownie]

4 hours ago, GordonC said:

 

it is, but oddball because its never worked a single train while in the condition modelled. At least its BR Blue so a prototypical livery even if it has era differences from when the rest of the class were painted like that

That’s fine with me, I’ll just run it light engine 😄
 

Seriously, I bought it because it is the NRM version same as I have bought other Locos both steam and diesel/electric which are also in the collection.

[john new]

4 hours ago, GordonC said:

 

it is, but oddball because its never worked a single train while in the condition modelled. At least its BR Blue so a prototypical livery even if it has era differences from when the rest of the class were painted like that

 

I bought one, from my sig you can see why, and I may be perceived as an odd ball ancient relic from the 1950s in this modern era but I fail to see the problem of owning a 'twofer' loco. It is well known modelling tactic going back decades as you only ever see one side at a time. I am surprised it isn't far more common on modern traction where there is no smokebox number plate to see.

 

People are slagging off Hornby for what to me is a very sensible tactic - it is blue, it ran in the condition shown on one side and is exactly as it is preserved to also suit collectors. I will run mine, that it is as preserved is why I for one bought it once it came within my price range at a time I had some spare hobby cash available.

 

What does annoy me though is that back when I was a kid both Hornby-Dublo and Tri-ang could make locos with working pantographs. The Tri-ang one I still have  can actually collect power from the O/H should I build some. Despite advances in machine tooling since the 1960s things have gone so far backwards (with no compromise to practicality) that the pans now even bust when taking off the packaging. There has to be some compromises surely for a working part to be a bit on the heavy side but be able to still work. Not necessarily these days to actually collect current given multiple loco working options via DCC if that is wanted but at least to be made to be reliably run either up or down without the thing snapping off.

 

Edited May 17, 2022 by john new
Dyslexic fingers

[Pete the Elaner]

4 minutes ago, john new said:

 

What does annoy me though is that back when I was a kid both Hornby-Dublo and Tri-ang could make locos with working pantographs. The Tri-ang one I still have  can actually collect power from the O/H should I build some. Despite advances in machine tooling since the 1960s things have gone so far backwards (with no compromise to practicality) that the pans now even bust when taking off the packaging. There has to be some compromises surely for a working part to be a bit on the heavy side but be able to still work. Not necessarily these days to actually collect current given multiple loco working options via DCC if that is wanted but at least to be made to be reliably run either up or down without the thing snapping off.

 

The pan on Bachmann's 90 doesn't break nearly as easily. It reacts against a contact wire & DCC users can raise/lower it remotely.

The pantograph is definitely a weak aspect of Hornby's 87.

[G-BOAF]

8 hours ago, GordonC said:

 

The difficulty of the Caledonian Sleeper 87002 would be the Mk3 sleepers they have tooling for were always due to be replaced fairly quickly with Mk5s which the 87 wouldn't work anyway. Would they have sold enough to make a production run worthwhile? Its probably difficult to say but sleeper models did seem to be popular in the past both for the Scottish and GWR sleepers. Probably still an easier sell than Floyd Class 56s 🤨

 

I'm surprised they did 87002 in Caledonian blue, rather than in heritage BR Blue with mock jumper boxes, or in Porterbrook purple named AC Locomotive Group. I sense that livery would have sold out VERY quickly....

 

I still don't understand why ACLG sold the loco, it leaves a gaping hole in their otherwise very fine lineage of AC Locos. If they could not longer operate her, why not place on her loan with Locomotive Services, which would have enabled use but also the integrity of their collection.

[Matt]

13 hours ago, GordonC said:

 

The difficulty of the Caledonian Sleeper 87002 would be the Mk3 sleepers they have tooling for were always due to be replaced fairly quickly with Mk5s which the 87 wouldn't work anyway. Would they have sold enough to make a production run worthwhile? Its probably difficult to say but sleeper models did seem to be popular in the past both for the Scottish and GWR sleepers. Probably still an easier sell than Floyd Class 56s 🤨

Did the 87 ever work the Mk3 sleepers though? As I recall the Mk3 sleepers were mostly worked by DB /EWS 90s and then moved over to GBRF 92s - I can’t recall if this was before or after Mk5 were introduced? I thought the 87 was only for ECS and my (admittedly not perfect) memory was that this was mostly with the Mk5s. Will happily be corrected though.

edit

ok I’ll correct myself… plenty of photos of 87s on Mk3s - looks like after GBRF won contract. Couldn’t see any Mk3s in matching Serco Caley livery - most of what I found was the older blue First Caley sleeper mk3s. Still think intent at least was only to use 87/86 on ECS

Edited May 18, 2022 by Matt
Correcting self before someone more knowledgeable does…

[GordonC]

6 hours ago, Matt said:

Did the 87 ever work the Mk3 sleepers though? As I recall the Mk3 sleepers were mostly worked by DB /EWS 90s and then moved over to GBRF 92s - I can’t recall if this was before or after Mk5 were introduced? I thought the 87 was only for ECS and my (admittedly not perfect) memory was that this was mostly with the Mk5s. Will happily be corrected though.

edit

ok I’ll correct myself… plenty of photos of 87s on Mk3s - looks like after GBRF won contract. Couldn’t see any Mk3s in matching Serco Caley livery - most of what I found was the older blue First Caley sleeper mk3s. Still think intent at least was only to use 87/86 on ECS

 

They were meant to just be used for the ECS movements, but the 'main' loco did fail quite a few times before departure so the sleepers were worked by the 86/87s

[adb968008]

21 hours ago, Matt said:

Did the 87 ever work the Mk3 sleepers though? As I recall the Mk3 sleepers were mostly worked by DB /EWS 90s and then moved over to GBRF 92s - I can’t recall if this was before or after Mk5 were introduced? I thought the 87 was only for ECS and my (admittedly not perfect) memory was that this was mostly with the Mk5s. Will happily be corrected though.

edit

ok I’ll correct myself… plenty of photos of 87s on Mk3s - looks like after GBRF won contract. Couldn’t see any Mk3s in matching Serco Caley livery - most of what I found was the older blue First Caley sleeper mk3s. Still think intent at least was only to use 87/86 on ECS

Yes 87002 had a memorable week on front line lowlander Glasgow duty in 2018, I recall 86401 also positioned up / back from Glasgow on the lowlander to do the ecs when the 47 wasnt available. This being during 92’s conversions for mk5’s (a 92 couldnt do mk3 and mk5 interchangably due to power settings so there was a shortage as mk5’s were delayed).

 

87002 also did the ecs’s from Kings Cross in May 2019, when 4 trains went south as 8 coach rakes (2x mk5, 2x mk3) due to platforming space at kx and Euston being closed…, it even saw 87002 alongside an Azuma, DB 90, FL 90, LNE 91’s and CS92 at the same time, plus LNE HST and a borrowed EMR set. This day was a split between mk3 and mk5’s, though 87002 only ever did mk3’s… quite a morning that was… last time I saw BR Era LHCS going into KX  on svce trains, to be relieved by scheduled LE’s to retrieve the stock.

 

87002 also had a very memorable night out to Didcot and Paddington in 2018, on Mk1’s in Brown/Cream.

 

Edited May 19, 2022 by adb968008

[Northern Electric]

Like a lot of you here I too recently picked up a heavily discounted 87001 with the view to repainting and backdating.   

I noticed Horby announced an executive version for 2022 which would be ideal for the period I am modelling (1990-ish) but a couple of things are bothering me about it - Mainly the RRP but also Hornby have a habit of messing up the colours on their IC livery applications , the lower beige band in particular.

The new APT has shown that actually they CAN get IC colours right when they really try, but I worry that their executive 87 will emerge with that rather yellowy looking shade on the lower body which stands out as being totally wrong in my eyes.

 

I'm thinking a repaint into either executive or mainline livery, along with removal of the fire extinguishers, may be the best (and certainly cheapest!) option to back date it to the early 90s.

Has anyone attempted this and had success with it?   How well does the loco dismantle for repainting?

 

I like executive with the wrap-around grey cab front most, as shown by the photo of 87027 and will probably be aiming for something like that, but I'm not entirely sure how to approach the issue of the BR double arrows over the stepped and heavily rivited section between the upper and lower body sections... has anyone managed this sucessfully?

The mainline version would avoid this issue of course, though I like the overall look of executive better. This photo taken 1993 shows it with the MW cables removed and the square headlight fitted so would avoid the need to tamper with the cab ends too much.

 

 

[cairnsroadworks]

7 minutes ago, Northern Electric said:

Like a lot of you here I too recently picked up a heavily discounted 87001 with the view to repainting and backdating.   

I noticed Horby announced an executive version for 2022 which would be ideal for the period I am modelling (1990-ish) but a couple of things are bothering me about it - Mainly the RRP but also Hornby have a habit of messing up the colours on their IC livery applications , the lower beige band in particular.

The new APT has shown that actually they CAN get IC colours right when they really try, but I worry that their executive 87 will emerge with that rather yellowy looking shade on the lower body which stands out as being totally wrong in my eyes.

 

I'm thinking a repaint into either executive or mainline livery, along with removal of the fire extinguishers, may be the best (and certainly cheapest!) option to back date it to the early 90s.

Has anyone attempted this and had success with it?   How well does the loco dismantle for repainting?

 

I like executive with the wrap-around grey cab front most, as shown by the photo of 87027 and will probably be aiming for something like that, but I'm not entirely sure how to approach the issue of the BR double arrows over the stepped and heavily rivited section between the upper and lower body sections... has anyone managed this sucessfully?

The mainline version would avoid this issue of course, though I like the overall look of executive better. This photo taken 1993 shows it with the MW cables removed and the square headlight fitted so would avoid the need to tamper with the cab ends too much.

 

 

They generally come apart lovely for repainting in my experience. The springs inside come away with a bit of gentle pressure so no issues for me. As for your question about the double arrow… with a good gloss varnish surface and a little decal softener you should have no issue with that either. 

[Pete the Elaner]

3 minutes ago, cairnsroadworks said:

They generally come apart lovely for repainting in my experience. The springs inside come away with a bit of gentle pressure so no issues for me. As for your question about the double arrow… with a good gloss varnish surface and a little decal softener you should have no issue with that either. 

 

I find Hornby windows difficult to remove. I feel either they or the body will break if I use any more force than I am doing.

I have tried a soak in hot, soapy water but don't know what chemicals I can use safely.

I am obviously missing a trick ... but what?

[cairnsroadworks]

1 minute ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

I find Hornby windows difficult to remove. I feel either they or the body will break if I use any more force than I am doing.

I have tried a soak in hot, soapy water but don't know what chemicals I can use safely.

I am obviously missing a trick ... but what?

Interesting. I’ve never had an issue with the Hornby 87. Bachmann 90 and Heljan 86… another story all together. My method is to use a Stanley knife to get under the edges if my initial press on the windscreen doesn’t get any movement. I’ve recently found that precision paints superstrip 2 applied carefully away from the ‘window’ element of the glazing with a small paintbrush and then left an hour works but I always wash the loco in soapy water before I remove glazing to avoid getting the stripper on the ‘window’ element. Hope that helps. 

[97406]

24 minutes ago, Northern Electric said:

Like a lot of you here I too recently picked up a heavily discounted 87001 with the view to repainting and backdating.   

I noticed Horby announced an executive version for 2022 which would be ideal for the period I am modelling (1990-ish) but a couple of things are bothering me about it - Mainly the RRP but also Hornby have a habit of messing up the colours on their IC livery applications , the lower beige band in particular.

The new APT has shown that actually they CAN get IC colours right when they really try, but I worry that their executive 87 will emerge with that rather yellowy looking shade on the lower body which stands out as being totally wrong in my eyes.

 

I'm thinking a repaint into either executive or mainline livery, along with removal of the fire extinguishers, may be the best (and certainly cheapest!) option to back date it to the early 90s.

Has anyone attempted this and had success with it?   How well does the loco dismantle for repainting?

 

I like executive with the wrap-around grey cab front most, as shown by the photo of 87027 and will probably be aiming for something like that, but I'm not entirely sure how to approach the issue of the BR double arrows over the stepped and heavily rivited section between the upper and lower body sections... has anyone managed this sucessfully?

The mainline version would avoid this issue of course, though I like the overall look of executive better. This photo taken 1993 shows it with the MW cables removed and the square headlight fitted so would avoid the need to tamper with the cab ends too much.

 

 

 

Here is one that I backdated recently. The MU equipment was made from car body filler in some silicone moulds I’d made from the Hornby class 50 with fuse wire for the cable. The high intensity headlight is a piece of styrene tube with a clear acrylic rod centre. The pan is the Judith Edge kit. The loco comes apart easily, but I’d leave the roof detail that you want to keep in place and mask it off before respraying. The roof grey colour is BR pearl grey when you need to touch up any filled in holes from any details you remove.

[Northern Electric]

Thats a nice executive repaint!

I like the cross arm pantograph conversion too, though I don't think those survived very long into the Intercity era (?) so would not be correct for the early 90s look I am after. That said I agree with previous comments about the plastic BW pan - Far too flimsy!  I have a couple of spare class 92 pans for when the factory item breaks off which it seems certain it will 🙄

 

Hopefully the holes left by the roof tank are not large and can be filled in with a bit of Milliput or such like? 

I do have some RailMatch rail grey but I was planning on giving the roof section a good weathering along with the bogies anyway - The roofs never looked that bright grey in service the way I remember them, and the cab roofs often looked quite grotty too, much like their diesel contemporaries at the time.

Any recommendations as regards decal softeners?  Also if anyone happens to know what the correct size BR arrows are for 86/87 Executive livery that would be a help, cheers!

[97406]

6 hours ago, Northern Electric said:

Thats a nice executive repaint!

I like the cross arm pantograph conversion too, though I don't think those survived very long into the Intercity era (?) so would not be correct for the early 90s look I am after. That said I agree with previous comments about the plastic BW pan - Far too flimsy!  I have a couple of spare class 92 pans for when the factory item breaks off which it seems certain it will 🙄

 

Hopefully the holes left by the roof tank are not large and can be filled in with a bit of Milliput or such like? 

I do have some RailMatch rail grey but I was planning on giving the roof section a good weathering along with the bogies anyway - The roofs never looked that bright grey in service the way I remember them, and the cab roofs often looked quite grotty too, much like their diesel contemporaries at the time.

Any recommendations as regards decal softeners?  Also if anyone happens to know what the correct size BR arrows are for 86/87 Executive livery that would be a help, cheers!

 

As far as I know, only 87018 retained its crossarm pantograph after being repainted into executive livery, and for only a short time.

 

I filled the holes after removing the more recent details in the roof with Milliput. With the arrows, I just compared the transfers (assorted sizes in black for the 87 or white for the 86s) with photos and picked the best one. The white arrows on the Heljan 86s were a little to big, so they got replaced too.

 

 

 

[Patriot87003]

13 hours ago, 97406 said:

 

Here is one that I backdated recently. The MU equipment was made from car body filler in some silicone moulds I’d made from the Hornby class 50 with fuse wire for the cable. The high intensity headlight is a piece of styrene tube with a clear acrylic rod centre. The pan is the Judith Edge kit. The loco comes apart easily, but I’d leave the roof detail that you want to keep in place and mask it off before respraying. The roof grey colour is BR pearl grey when you need to touch up any filled in holes from any details you remove.

Great job with recreating 87018 in it’s early IC Exec livery and adding the MW details; good idea! I bought one of the bargain 87001 and am intending to back date and add the MW boxes as well … which product did you use to create the silicone mouldings, any suggestions? 👍

[97406]

19 minutes ago, Patriot87003 said:

Great job with recreating 87018 in it’s early IC Exec livery and adding the MW details; good idea! I bought one of the bargain 87001 and am intending to back date and add the MW boxes as well … which product did you use to create the silicone mouldings, any suggestions? 👍

 

I use a 2 part silicone putty. You have to squeeze it around the detail and some moulds don’t turn out. I’ve also used it for the roof mounted radio pods on class 50s, and some of the missing class 40 underframe parts on the early Bachmann model. ETA I refurbished an early Hornby class 50 and used the technique for the high intensity headlight surround, too.

 

Hopefully the long link below works: 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/303672384207?chn=ps&var=602911549025&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&amdata=enc%3A1cUe3ce--Sn2TBp02SuVV1Q71&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-134428-41853-0&mkcid=2&itemid=602911549025_303672384207&targetid=1647205088560&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9046392&poi=1006891&campaignid=17206177401&mkgroupid=136851690655&rlsatarget=pla-1647205088560&abcId=9300866&merchantid=113570289&gclid=Cj0KCQjw-daUBhCIARIsALbkjSZoP7Bo41uH_KXuZKv7UOvrYGpm053BlnraHP0AXLBur9bEdUJz6W8aAuZuEALw_wcB

 

 

Edited May 31, 2022 by 97406

[Pete the Elaner]

12 minutes ago, Patriot87003 said:

Great job with recreating 87018 in it’s early IC Exec livery and adding the MW details; good idea! I bought one of the bargain 87001 and am intending to back date and add the MW boxes as well … which product did you use to create the silicone mouldings, any suggestions? 👍

 

I've 3d printed a load. I'll be happy to send some if you PM me your address.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Pete the Elaner
Added photo

[97406]

9 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

I've 3d printed a load. I'll be happy to send some if you PM me your address.

 

That is another possibility, and similar to my castings when they're fresh from the mould. The castings I make need fettling on the rear face that is stuck to the locomotive front. Epoxy is the best glue to attach them, after painting the loco and the MU parts separately first, as you can tweak the positioning for a few minutes and clean excess glue off with a toothpick with a little white spirit or IPA. Overspray with satin or matt varnish after it has all set.

 

 

 

Edited May 31, 2022 by 97406