GWR HST

[Rhydgaled]

How do Hornby decide what models they are going to issue with an individually numbered 'limted edition' certificate? It seems to me that 'run of the mill' fleet liveries (such as dynamic lines, particularly unnamed locos) would be 'unlimited' and special one-off celebrity locos (like 43002 in current BR livery with nameplates) might be 'limited edition'. With the GWR power cars, a fleet of short-sets now looks like being retained, which makes the Hornby model of 43187 and 43188 (assuming they will lose the Welsh branding once withdrawn from Paddington services) look more-suited to an 'unlimited' release to me, unless Hornby are planning to do other power cars in GWR green as an 'unlimited' release once the new power-door rakes start to appear (assuming they will be in green). Alternatively, they could do the locos with the Welsh branding, assuming that is going to be short-lived on the real thing it would make sense as a 'limited edition' release from Hornby.

 

I agree but Hornby has seemingly always taken the approach that its customers do not have infinitely deep pockets and might prefer to accumulate a representative set over a little more time.  A complete HST has not always been available at the same time in any livery.  And not everyone has space for even a half-set given that would be two power cars and four trailers.  What would you have?  TGS+TS then what?  Buffet and TF?  Alternatively which do you omit?  A full 2+8 takes up a lot of layout space.

Now that even 'unlimited' release models seem to be limited to a small batch and can sell out quickly, releasing the other coaches in later years so that customers don't need to buy the lot at once sounds sensible to me (though perhaps it would make more sense to do 1 TSO and 1 TFO per year, rather than 2 differently numbered TSOs this year and no TFOs). As to model formations, my current dream is for 3x 2+5 sets (two to be formed TGS+TSO+TSO+RF?+TFO and the other formed of the coaches necessary to make the other two sets up to a full 2+7 and 2+8 rake). If I was forming a 2+4 set, it would probably be TGS+TSO+TSO+RF?.

 

The Artwork also doesn't show the 'matt' upwards strike to the right hand side of the carriage. Definitely going to hold back with this one until it gets here!

Hornby definately need to improve the images they use to advertise models; the GWR coaches just seem to be a sketch, not even a Photoshop photo of one of their existing mrk3 models. As for the power cars, my photos of the full-size train appear to show that the power cars don't have that matte stripe.

[dibber25]

Where price is concerned, there's one unknown variable - licence fee. This can make a very substantial difference to identical models in different liveries. (CJL)

[GordonC]

Where price is concerned, there's one unknown variable - licence fee. This can make a very substantial difference to identical models in different liveries. (CJL)

 

if that adds the best part of £100 then I'd think someone was taking the mickey and I'd be surprised at it being produced.

[James90012]

They won't release the extra coach later though- the Virgin sets are out but I don't see the rest of the rake being released. In my opinion, don't bother with the second version of the standard class and produce a first.

[Ian Hargrave]

I have PM'd Paul with regard to the apparent omission of the TFO from the GWR HST 125 release. His response is as follows :

 

The 2017 range is hugely cut back from where we wanted it to be-in an ideal world we would have a complement of coaches from a particular marque and have two livery versions of each,but unfortunately,we are still feeling our way out of the 2016 "situation" and both budgets and timeframes were cut.Now it might be that someone looks at the Mk.1 range and notes that we have a full complement of types,that would be because we have two new items of tooling (the BSO and FO) that dovetail with these items for maximum effect.

 

 

In selecting the 2xTSO,TGB and TRUB,we have gone with the Mk.III coaches that best represent the rake and sell the best-and that is the compromise we have had to make with several of the lines (the Maunsell coaches also spring to mind here).There are instances where this has worked in our favour,what seems to have gone uncommented on is the fact there is no Class 91/DVT/MkIV  coaches in the range!

 

 

2018 will show a small step forward (touch wood),but it will be several years before we can get back to the position of offering full rakes,in the meantime we will endavour to offer the widest choice of rolling stock from our tooling bank,in the correct ranges,at the right price.

[phil-b259]

They won't release the extra coach later though- the Virgin sets are out but I don't see the rest of the rake being released. In my opinion, don't bother with the second version of the standard class and produce a first.

Given how, in general, one thing lots of people have complained about on here in the past is the 'over provision' of first class vehicles and not enough standard / second class ones in previous years, Hornby are actually responding to what the market wants. I also believe that from a retailers perspective, first class stock tends to hang around long after the 2nd class stock has sold out so there is a financial basis for their thinking too.

 

In any case the Mk3 bodyshell is identical for the 1st and 2nd / Standard class varients and if people are that desperate, surely it isn't too hard to add a yellow stripe too one of Hornby's Standard class with renumbering being not that hard either if you are bothered about such things. The only signifficant issue I see is that the interior seating mouldings will of course be different between standard and first class - but then again just how accurate is Hornby's offering given that the internal fit out of Mk3s (e.g. the increase in airline style seating) has changed significantly over the decades.

Edited January 10, 2017 by phil-b259

[MGR Hooper!]

What seems to have gone uncommented on is the fact there is no Class 91/DVT/MkIV  coaches in the range!

 

I'm glad they aren't producing a Class 91, Mk4 coaches and Mk4 DVT this year. Unfortunate for those who bought the VTEC pack and cannot get addon coaches. But that Class 91 is in dire need of an update to new tooling or at least with working lights, NEM couplings, a better pantograph etc.

[James90012]

The GWR First Class adornments are limited to a thin silver line and small 1 symbols so a vinyl would do the job. I appreciate the issue with over providing first class coaches, but for every set that has a TGS a first class coach could find a home. The power car is a limited edition piece, yet the coaches aren't advertised as such, but I am already doubting getting an entire set because of this anyway.

 

I think the bigger issue is not providing a first class coach on their Virgin mk2es. Whilst it might make sense, for me it has frankly stopped me having any interest in building up a set - and there are plenty Virgin mk2es sat on shelves.

[Coryton]

I have PM'd Paul with regard to the apparent omission of the TFO from the GWR HST 125 release. His response is as follows :

 

The 2017 range is hugely cut back from where we wanted it to be-in an ideal world we would have a complement of coaches from a particular marque and have two livery versions of each,but unfortunately,we are still feeling our way out of the 2016 "situation" and both budgets and timeframes were cut.Now it might be that someone looks at the Mk.1 range and notes that we have a full complement of types,that would be because we have two new items of tooling (the BSO and FO) that dovetail with these items for maximum effect.

 

 

In selecting the 2xTSO,TGB and TRUB,we have gone with the Mk.III coaches that best represent the rake and sell the best-and that is the compromise we have had to make with several of the lines (the Maunsell coaches also spring to mind here).There are instances where this has worked in our favour,what seems to have gone uncommented on is the fact there is no Class 91/DVT/MkIV  coaches in the range!

 

 

2018 will show a small step forward (touch wood),but it will be several years before we can get back to the position of offering full rakes,in the meantime we will endavour to offer the widest choice of rolling stock from our tooling bank,in the correct ranges,at the right price.

 

Nice to get such an honest response!

[Ian Hargrave]

Nice to get such an honest response!

Indeed but unsurprising. This is a dedicated professional at the top of his game who Is part of a team who are passionate in their aim to get things right. What you see is what you get. Let's believe it.

Edited January 12, 2017 by Ian Hargrave

[Coryton]

Indeed but unsurprising. This is a dedicated professional at the top of his game who leads a team who are passionate in their aim to get things right. What you see is what you get. Let's believe it.

 

In this case it might be unsurprising, but in general it's rare in my experience for large companies to be so "up-front".

[Ian Hargrave]

In this case it might be unsurprising, but in general it's rare in my experience for large companies to be so "up-front".

Would you describe Hornby as "a large company" ? I think we have abundant evidence both on this forum and at the NEC last November of a desire to enter into a meaningful and productive relationship with its client group .That is why I describe it as unsurprising.

[shunny]

An opportunity for Oxford Rail to come to the rescue?

Edited January 11, 2017 by shunny

[Coryton]

Would you describe Hornby as "a large company" ? I think we have abundant evidence both on this forum and at the NEC last November of a desire to enter into a meaningful and productive relationship with its client group .That is why I describe it as unsurprising.

 

Large is relative.

 

I'm impressed that a company the size of Hornby, listed on the stock market, is making what comes across as a very honest statement about the difference between what they'd like to do and what they can afford to do, rather than putting a positive spin on things and trying to pretend that everything is wonderful even when it's clear it's not. 

 

The current belief - certainly for companies that have to worry about their brand and what the stock market will think - seems to be that it is wrong to admit to anything negative whatsoever.

[Shoey]

Disappointing that this is the case but really appreciate their honest response. I'm sure the decision to make cuts is far from easy and the last thing that Hornby would ever have wanted. But who knows what will happen either this year and into next. All we can do is thank Hornby for what they are producing and wish them all the very best and continue to support them. Time is a healer as they say and keep our fingers crossed that Hornby will be where they (and we) want them to be as soon as possible!

Edited January 11, 2017 by Shoey

[Mike Riley]

In two years or so the only HSTs operating in GWR livery will be four coach sets running between Exeter, Plymouth and Penzance.  I haven't seen any indication about the composition of these sets but I doubt they will include a buffet and probably not a TGS.  First class?  Maybe one FO and three SOs.  I wonder if some of the existing stock will even get the new livery.  they are already sending coaches off to be converted to remote doors and retention tanks etc.  Those that are not planned for conversion or transfer to Scotland may remain in FGW livery.

 

Mike

[dogbox321]

Think the lack of a GWR FO is very disappointing.  An FO is an integral part of the "Train".  As someone else has already said, for each TGS and RFO sold, they will sell a FO, I can appreciate money at Hornby may be tight, but this is not really a commercial risk!  Its cash generation with virtually guaranteed sales.   Its a greater commercial risk that the GWR  HST will be a "flop" because people don't bother purchasing it, because they cannot  make a full rake. Failure usually results from doing half a job and/or not understanding your market. 

 

Regards,

 

C.

[Roy Langridge]

In two years or so the only HSTs operating in GWR livery will be four coach sets running between Exeter, Plymouth and Penzance. I haven't seen any indication about the composition of these sets but I doubt they will include a buffet and probably not a TGS. First class? Maybe one FO and three SOs. I wonder if some of the existing stock will even get the new livery. they are already sending coaches off to be converted to remote doors and retention tanks etc. Those that are not planned for conversion or transfer to Scotland may remain in FGW livery.

 

Mike

Why no TGS? Where will the guard be? Don't say in the power car as that was vetoed by the unions for noise and led to the TGSs being introduced. The TGS is also used quite extensively for bikes in Devon / Cornwall.

 

I would favour them being FO,TSO,TSO,TGS.

 

Roy

Edited January 12, 2017 by Roy Langridge

[Gwiwer]

If I were forced to short-form an HST set for any reason and had the option of four coaches between the power cars my choice would be TGS-TS-TS-TRUB which matches the Hornby releases.  Why?  Because all elements are represented; standard and first class, the guard's brake in a seated coach and the catering section.  OK there would only be a half-car of first class seating but correctly marshalled that would be adjacent to the power car not the TS so would appear correct.  And there would only be half the normal amount of standard class seating as well.  

 

Some things are impossible to scale down successfully.  Mixed-rake formations requiring multiple vehicle types are one of those things.

[Coryton]

Why no TGS? Where will the guard be? Don't say in the power car as that was vetoed by the unions for noise and led to the TGSs being introduced. The TGS is also used quite extensively for bikes in Devon / Cornwall.

 

I would favour them being FO,TSO,TSO,TGS.

 

Roy

 

I don't have experience of the area, but are they really going to want over 1/4 of the seats first class on services that don't get anywhere near London?

 

At most I would have thought there would be one composite coach.

 

Catering - if any - would presumably be a trolley.

 

With a power car per two coaches they won't half go!

[Coryton]

Some things are impossible to scale down successfully.  Mixed-rake formations requiring multiple vehicle types are one of those things.

 

Not as bad as a 2-car IEP where on the real thing doing that would leave you with no motor vehicles!

[BruceV]

Rapido managed to produce the Limited Edition 4 car APT-E with 2 motors and sound in both power cars for £325.   This certainly makes the GWR HST power cars well over priced when you consider that they only have one motor and IMHO poor TTS sound.   Maybe Rapido should buy out Hornby?

[rembrow]

Why no TGS? Where will the guard be? Don't say in the power car as that was vetoed by the unions for noise and led to the TGSs being introduced. The TGS is also used quite extensively for bikes in Devon / Cornwall.

 

I would favour them being FO,TSO,TSO,TGS.

 

Roy

 

Any possibility that these shortened HSTs would run with one power car and other end using some of the stored Mk3 DVTs. I read that some existing Mk 3 DVTs are being converted to operate Mk3s with power doors for Chiltern. Would give both guard and stowage capability.

[Roy Langridge]

Any possibility that these shortened HSTs would run with one power car and other end using some of the stored Mk3 DVTs. I read that some existing Mk 3 DVTs are being converted to operate Mk3s with power doors for Chiltern. Would give both guard and stowage capability.

I did see some discussion about that at one point, however, concern was expressed about the impact of failures with only one engine. Personally I think the idea may still have legs.

 

Roy

[Co-tr-Paul]

We will be having 11 2+5 sets for PZ to BTM corridor. The current Hornsby mk3s won't be suitable anyway due to fitting of new sliding doors changing the profile. The exact make up of the rakes still have not been fully decided. A TGS or new budget guard combine will be required.