Oxford Rail 2017 announcement at London Toy Fair (24-26 Jan)

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

It's a very small pool for the loco hauled mk3 traction choice. With my 'Mr Rational' hat on, I'd think of the class that could carry the largest range of liveries. Unless of course one of the alternatives is known to have a cult following, with the true believers required to purchase every model that is produced.

 

Would be unwise to quadruplicate the 47 ...

 And even less wise to quintiplicate, if the Vi product - which many like - is still in production capable mode.

 

Let's face it though. Whenever Oxford wish to add a BR or later mainline diesel subject to their range, most likely something has to be duplicated, because all the classes that saw extended service in large numbers well distributed across the UK are 'taken'.

[brushman47544]

dont think there were very many Mk2f coaches in ScotRail livery (if meaning blue stripe).  Wasnt there just a couple of FK's in that livery so maybe not worth a run of 1000 coaches. As yet an FK has not been announced but I dare say they will cover it at some point which might allow some folk to convert them to ScotRail. 

 

There were no Mk2F FKs, only FOs; FKs stopped with the Mk2D. Doesn't mean Bachmann won't produce one in the future of course, but it wouldn't be part of the Mk2F range. Personally I'd prefer a full range of Mk2Bs and Mk2Cs first.

Edited January 17, 2017 by brushman47544

[Legend]

It's a very small pool for the loco hauled mk3 traction choice. With my 'Mr Rational' hat on, I'd think of the class that could carry the largest range of liveries. Unless of course one of the alternatives is known to have a cult following, with the true believers required to purchase every model that is produced.

 

 

 And even less wise to quintiplicate, if the Vi product - which many like - is still in production capable mode.

 

Let's face it though. Whenever Oxford wish to add a BR or later mainline diesel subject to their range, most likely something has to be duplicated, because all the classes that saw extended service in large numbers well distributed across the UK are 'taken'.

I'd forgotten Vi Trains! Thanks . Yes indeed 5 versions

[Legend]

Unless of course, they don't view rolling stock and locomotives as being complementary. Maybe they are just looking for gaps in market and filling it. Would explain the Adams Radial ,announced before Hornby, the Mk3, numerous complaints on accuracy of Hornby model , and Deans Goods, Hornby model too old.

 

In which case you maybe looking at something in an existing range which is old and needs updating. The 86 is still a candidate , but maybe a Manor or 43xx?

[Hilux5972]

Unless of course, they don't view rolling stock and locomotives as being complementary. Maybe they are just looking for gaps in market and filling it. Would explain the Adams Radial ,announced before Hornby, the Mk3, numerous complaints on accuracy of Hornby model , and Deans Goods, Hornby model too old.

 

In which case you maybe looking at something in an existing range which is old and needs updating. The 86 is still a candidate , but maybe a Manor or 43xx?

If they do follow up with the Manor, I'm hoping it avoids the well publicised issues around the firebox area.

[adb968008]

LMS 2-6-2t Stanier and Fowler with push pull coach.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Unless of course, they don't view rolling stock and locomotives as being complementary. Maybe they are just looking for gaps in market and filling it. ...In which case you maybe looking at something in an existing range which is old and needs updating...

 Any C20th or later standard gauge subject you can think of will be complementary to some existing models already in production, so I'd go right along with the 'look for gaps and fill them' approach. There are 'gaps' everywhere you look: despite endless production of LNER pacifics, there isn't a 'native' 0-6-0 for the ECML would be my leading example on the steam loco front. In steam era wagons, the LMS general merchandise opens are, well, 'open'. And I could drone on!

 

But it does have its limits, and the selection of mk3s - which I see as a sensible gap filling choice, there definitely are no current standard RTR products available, and for a numerous and long in service type with a huge livery selection it affords many exploitation opportunities - we come up against one of these. The loco hauled types, the traction livery doesn't have to match perfectly, or in some cases at all. But if moving on to the HST set mk3s, then I believe there will be a market expectation of 'complete set' availability, vehicles and traction all in matching livery. Or perhaps I am alone on this?

[frobisher]

hopefully a BR blue 86/2 and then an Inter-City one to match the new Hornby 87 models.

I'd say start with the 86/0 and 86/3 and then no one can cry foul about duplication... Do those right and follow up with the others, including the 86/1.

[frobisher]

Not much else pull Mk3s.

Off the top of my head in recent years you can add the 67, 68, 66, 73, 92, 33, 37 and soon enough the Peppercorn A1 to that list.

Edited January 18, 2017 by frobisher

[Roy Langridge]

Off the top of my head in recent years you can add the 67, 68, 66, 73, 92, 33, 37 and soon enough the Peppercorn A1 to that list.

Over the years most ETH locos pulled Mk3 stock at some point. There are photos of Peaks on Mk3 stock, class 37s, 50s and I seem to recall seeing a 40 on Mk3 stock.

 

Roy

[Mad McCann]

Going to be interesting seeing an A1 hauling Mk3 stock. Who could have predicted that in 1975?

 

Dave.

[Jub45565]

Not to mention a P2...

[The Johnster]

Oxford are a small firm with plenty of as yet unrealised potential.  There are strengths and weaknesses associated with being a small outfit, and the principle strength is the agiltiy to react to the market quickly and the ability to keep overheads down.  That said, there are a few obvious gaps in the market that Ox might be able to outflank the blue box red box empire if they can move quickly.  I agree with the dearth of Scottish prototypes brought out in this thread and might suggest a few NER ones as well, epsecially J27 the obvious running mate to Hornby's Q6.  Another opportunity going begging is a GW 43xx or Manor; Baccy seem to not be in a rush to re-intoduce theirs and a cheeky little 94xx would no doubt sell well as well.  How about a really decent large prairie?  Have to say that an AL6/86 or any loco requiring OHLE is a big risk for a small company.

 

Since this is the obvious opportunity for some off hand wishlusting (you spell it your way I'll spell it mine), a pre-grouping South Wales model would be nice, perhaps TVR 'A', esp rebuilt, or Rhynmey 'R'.  A Diagram 'L' auto trailier, the most numerous type produced and very long lived, or in fact any pre-A27/28/30 type, would be very welcome.  The 'L' was around from 1906 to the late 50s. so must surely be a better bet than Baccy's A38, which barely lasted 10 years in service and only carried 3 liveries.  

Edited January 19, 2017 by The Johnster

[The Ghost of IKB]

So you think that a model of the most successful, most long lived, most numerous electric locomotive is a risk, but then want an incredibly obscure welsh steam engine that only the real cognoscenti have heard of? OK, that makes perfect sense.

[Dunsignalling]

So you think that a model of the most successful, most long lived, most numerous electric locomotive is a risk, but then want an incredibly obscure welsh steam engine that only the real cognoscenti have heard of? OK, that makes perfect sense.

The problem with electrics is their purely main line, mostly long train application which few of us have room to carry off convincingly. OK, you can model MPDs, but then the manufacturers don't get to sell any coaches or much in the way of wagons. I have long suspected this to be a significant factor in the main players reluctance to cover such subjects. OK the same is true of  all large locos, most of the time, but real enthusiasm for electrics seems to be largely confined to those who received regular exposure to them and lost on the rest of us. 

 

They also look silly pulling no more than three or four coaches on the kind of layouts most of us can accommodate, whereas any 0-6-2T can run around with a train barely a yard long without looking unduly daft. Another factor with modest layouts, is that adding OHLE makes them look even smaller.........

 

However, neither a Class 86 (my recognition of which consists of knowing they have squarer cabs than what went before and fewer windscreens than what followed) nor a Welsh 0-6-2T would induce any anxiety in my flexible friend.

 

John

[wombatofludham]

The problem with electrics is their purely main line, mostly long train application which few of us have room to carry off convincingly. OK, you can model MPDs, but then the manufacturers don't get to sell any coaches or much in the way of wagons. I have long suspected this to be a significant factor in the main players reluctance to cover such subjects. OK the same is true of  all large locos, most of the time, but real enthusiasm for electrics seems to be largely confined to those who received regular exposure to them and lost on the rest of us. 

 

They also look silly pulling no more than three or four coaches on the kind of layouts most of us can accommodate, whereas any 0-6-2T can run around with a train barely a yard long without looking unduly daft. Another factor with modest layouts, is that adding OHLE makes them look even smaller.........

 

However, neither a Class 86 (my recognition of which consists of knowing they have squarer cabs than what went before and fewer windscreens than what followed) nor a Welsh 0-6-2T would induce any anxiety in my flexible friend.

 

John

 

All of which has put off Bachmann from doing their 85, announcing a slowly approaching Class 90 and Hornby announcing an 87 in a year when they could have been excused from scaling back.  Clearly they don't subscribe to this view, especially as Hornby and Bachmann seem to love their big named locos, which lets face it, are just as mainline and look equally daft hauling two or three coach trains.  I'm sure all the Merchant Navys, 9fs, Jubilees and Scots sold by the two companies didn't end up in a display case.

[The Ghost of IKB]

All of which has put off Bachmann from doing their 85, announcing a slowly approaching Class 90 and Hornby announcing an 87 in a year when they could have been excused from scaling back. Clearly they don't subscribe to this view, especially as Hornby and Bachmann seem to love their big named locos, which lets face it, are just as mainline and look equally daft hauling two or three coach trains. I'm sure all the Merchant Navys, 9fs, Jubilees and Scots sold by the two companies didn't end up in a display case.

What he said.

This hobby has been built on kids and adults buying big engines to run small trains. How many dublo and Hornby 8Ps up and down the country have been in charge of 3 coach trains hurtling round corners too tight for trams compared with the number that pull 10 plus round sweeping 12 foot radius curves?.

It's time we stopped this electrics don't sell nonsense. The manufacturers don't believe it anymore so why should we? High Quality models sell. Kids will buy the trains that mean something to them, so eurostar, iep, 395, are all the next step on from Thomas. Increasingly the railway modelling population cant remember steam. We tend to model the trains we remember, hence I'm into blue 24s 25s and 40s. While I can appreciate steam, it's from another world to me, (and sadly im no longer in my youth at 50) so apart from museum pieces like mallard and evening star I don't buy them. The market for steam will contract over time, as it becomes even more of a historical records enactment, whilst diesel and electric will grow. Remember in the 70s how few diesel era layouts there were?

Edited January 20, 2017 by The Ghost of IKB

[Edwardian]

Increasingly the railway modelling population cant remember steam. We tend to model the trains we remember, hence I'm into blue 24s 25s and 40s. While I can appreciate steam, it's from another world to me, (and sadly im no longer in my youth at 50) so apart from museum pieces like mallard and evening star I don't buy them. The market for steam will contract over time, as it becomes even more of a historical records enactment, whilst diesel and electric will grow. Remember in the 70s how few diesel era layouts there were?

 

Evidence of growing numbers of layouts suggests you are correct.

 

Personally, growing up in the '70s, I have no wish to revisit that decade in general or its "corporate image" railways in particular, but I am always going to be in a minority there and, in general, as the all-consuming obsession with the Transition Era in recent decades has shown, generational nostalgia has been the key to the 'mass' market for years and manufacturers must bow to it.

 

You must be right, then, to call for more support for electrics.  I will never join you on that journey, as I will stay in the cul de sac labelled "Historic Railway Modelling", but I think you have correctly identified the direction of travel and the next destination. 

[Dunsignalling]

All of which has put off Bachmann from doing their 85, announcing a slowly approaching Class 90 and Hornby announcing an 87 in a year when they could have been excused from scaling back.  Clearly they don't subscribe to this view, especially as Hornby and Bachmann seem to love their big named locos, which lets face it, are just as mainline and look equally daft hauling two or three coach trains.  I'm sure all the Merchant Navys, 9fs, Jubilees and Scots sold by the two companies didn't end up in a display case.

I have always admired the efficiency, cleanliness and performance of 25kv electric traction when travelling but find it rather soulless in model form. Perhaps too efficient, too clean and lacking in what I perceive (rightly or wrongly) as visual "character" when compared to (say) the ER 1500v DC locomotives. 

 

This is, I openly admit, completely illogical given that my steam and diesel outline models are all electrically driven but it's not something I have ever been able to overcome, or indeed worry about. I am too busy enjoying models of prototypes that do "float my boat". I have been fortunate in being able to enjoy "running powers" on more than one large layout over the years to give my "big stuff" work-outs on long trains. However, none have reflected the area, period or infrastructure to require electric blue traction.

 

My personal modelling is based on a non-electrified part of the Southern Region, on which Light Pacifics were maids-of-all-work and can be used prototypically on lightweight formations (so I don't have much interest in juice-rail EMUs, either). The available numbers of WCs also led to older large locos like King Arthurs and S15s being regularly employed on 3-coach locals. If one models one of the minor through stations, they couldn't accommodate even half of trains like the ACE anyway. A long set therefore only needs to be assembled occasionally by coupling a few short ones together and adding BCKs - a 12-foot fiddle yard is not necessary!

 

We Southern fans have been very well catered-for with Southern r-t-r models (especially) by Hornby over the past couple of decades, and I am suitably grateful. My Bachmann purchases (their excellent N aside) have mainly been confined to BR Standard types, coaches, wagons and feeding a side-interest in the Somerset & Dorset but they've done quite well out of me, too.

 

That said, Hornby only keep making Southern locos because "we" keep buying them. Look how quickly Okehampton sold out, not remotely a new model and probably at least the "dozenth" rebuilt WC they have produced. Yes, 603 Squadron and Trevone are already on my shopping list, too!

 

If 25Kv fans want regular new models and follow-ups to existing ones (whoever produces them) it will be vital for them to "put their money where their mouths are" in similar fashion but, with the 85 done and the other two on the way, I suspect Oxford might not consider it timely to enter that particular fray. 

 

John

Edited January 20, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[JSpencer]

The AL5 (class 85) does not make it into the modern (21st century) scene and Blue era is only starting to gain popularity now. Although they operated in the end of steam era, I guess most steam modelers would find it hard to add overhead wires which would be used for just for one loco (and demands steam engines to have warning flashes everywhere).

 

The Heljan 86 has enough flaws to thwart sales. If we are to spend big money, the model needs to be definitive. The remaining locos, and too extant most of the associated rolling stock are all from obsolete tooling.

 

Only the 86s (which have a complex history) and 87s from BR blue era have reached modern paint schemes. 90s and 91s and still much in service and cover from the late 80s until now. The problem is, I see no point paying a fortune for a decent livery on a crude model. So hardly anyone buys electrics because, until now, there were none proposed by any manufacturer which still operate and have definitive modern tooling models.

 

I feel 86s and 87s will do well. 

[Dunsignalling]

The AL5 (class 85) does not make it into the modern (21st century) scene and Blue era is only starting to gain popularity now. Although they operated in the end of steam era, I guess most steam modelers would find it hard to add overhead wires which would be used for just for one loco (and demands steam engines to have warning flashes everywhere).

 

 The Heljan 86 has enough flaws to thwart sales. If we are to spend big money, the model needs to be definitive. The remaining locos, and too extant most of the associated rolling stock are all from obsolete tooling.

 

Only the 86s (which have a complex history) and 87s from BR blue era have reached modern paint schemes. 90s and 91s and still much in service and cover from the late 80s until now. The problem is, I see no point paying a fortune for a decent livery on a crude model. So hardly anyone buys electrics because, until now, there were none proposed by any manufacturer which still operate and have definitive modern tooling models.

 

I feel 86s and 87s will do well. 

But are Oxford yet ready to achieve "definitive"?

 

As for the previous flawed model, I wonder whether manufacturers acknowledge that poor sales derive from those flaws or write it off as an unwise choice of prototype.

 

The frequent alterations and renumberings within the Class 86 fleet make it something of a nightmare and models will be sitting targets for the "it's not right for my 1987 (or whenever) layout"  brigade.  

 

John

Edited January 20, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[The Stationmaster]

I think what everyone is missing is that Oxford is in many respects coming from left of field in selecting models and don't necessarily think the way many modellers think.  They go for what they perceive as gaps in the market picking either unmodelled prototypes or those where existing models are very long in the tooth and probably low down the existing manufacturer's re-tooling list.  

 

But beyond that they also seem to go for simplicity of research picking subjects where at least enough information, or 'scanability' is available to allow very cost effective development which can also be potentially quick.  Their seemingly small and 'tight' organisation facilitates this while, again, keeping costs down although inevitably as they tackle better known subjects in the more demanding market areas it can cause them to hit possible troubles and the need for greater care or extra work (e.g the Dean Goods).  So what they pick will probably come as a complete and unexpected surprise, will have been relatively straightforward to research, ideally could be scanned, and will aim to exploit a market area where others don't seem to be going.

 

If several others are already picking ac electrics why should Oxford?  Don't jump into a crowded marketplace but pick another where there is perceived to be demand for either a readily doable update or something completely different and keep it simple to hold costs and prices down.

[GreenGiraffe22]

Increasingly the railway modelling population cant remember steam. We tend to model the trains we remember, hence I'm into blue 24s 25s and 40s. While I can appreciate steam, it's from another world to me, (and sadly im no longer in my youth at 50) so apart from museum pieces like mallard and evening star I don't buy them. The market for steam will contract over time, as it becomes even more of a historical records enactment, whilst diesel and electric will grow. Remember in the 70s how few diesel era layouts there were?

I thought that argument had been put to bed?

 

Modern trains are boring and totally lack any sort of character. I'm sure I'm not an anomaly with this view.

 

Signed, someone born in 1991 modelling 1943.

[Mark Saunders]

I thought that argument had been put to bed?

 

Modern trains are boring and totally lack any sort of character. I'm sure I'm not an anomaly with this view.

 

Signed, someone born in 1991 modelling 1943.

 

This argument will never be put to bed and over the years as it is a matter of Personal Interest that determines what you model!

 

Everyone has seen items over the years that interested them and what time period they model!

 

Current operations have interest to some but not others but in a few years time today will be Historical Modelling!

 

Mark Saunders

[GreenGiraffe22]

My era choice is a combination of growing up with Thomas the Tank Engine, and a fascination for WW2 and local history. I've never really considered "What I Remember", what I do remember is very un interesting Connex livery trains...