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Northern Rail Timetabled Steam On The S & C

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The Stationmaster

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S+C site says 'Britains newest Steam locomotive'.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyd_(locomotive)

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GWR_steam_rail_motors#Number_93

 

and countless museum replicas of Pioneering steam stuff.

 

I'll get my coat...

 

 

Anyway, is DBS the operator or is it Northern itself?

 

Depends on whether or not Northern has a licence and safety case to operate steam hauled special trains.  It almost certainly could charter such trains with someone else being the operator.

 

Then leaves an interesting question about what rolling stock its paperwork is built around for its ordinary services on the S&C so its franchise agreement could also be affected.  All of which might explain why somebody has been sufficiently careful not to run these trains in the advertised times of the normal service?  Simple answer is to simply see them as 'steam specials' in the way the Friends of the S&C have described them that are  operating on a (special) timetabled service and, it would seem, are open to holders of ordinary tickets.

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cal.n

cal.n

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Then leaves an interesting question about what rolling stock its paperwork is built around for its ordinary services on the S&C so its franchise agreement could also be affected.  All of which might explain why somebody has been sufficiently careful not to run these trains in the advertised times of the normal service?  Simple answer is to simply see them as 'steam specials' in the way the Friends of the S&C have described them that are  operating on a (special) timetabled service and, it would seem, are open to holders of ordinary tickets.

 

Yes, never thought of things like that.

 

Because it is a standard ticket, it also begs the question, are there any rules normal passenger TOCs have to conform to that a charter operator doesn't that would be an issue with charter coach sets (thinking of disability access, toilets, bike storage, in train passenger announcements, ect)

 

Just thinking, if something went wrong, would Northern be obliged to provide a rail replacement bus?

 

Found this in another thread from the Arriva Northern invitation to tender

 

 

5.4.2.16

 

V. Proposals to develop the markets for tourist, leisure and enthusiast travel on scenic routes through the deployment (either on an occasional or a regular basis) of heritage rolling stock or other rolling stock adapted specifically to suit the needs of this market;

 

 

Just a thought, how different is this to the ScotRail 'Steam Specials' on the Borders Line and Waverley Line late last year?

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Reorte

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There is turntable at each end, so presumably it will be tender first in one direction unless Peco can quickly produce a 12" to the foot loco lift.

That does raise the question though, it is quite a long way to run tender-first. I'm trying to remember if it's even possible to run around at Appleby or whether another loco would be needed (edit - yes, looks like it should be possible to run around).

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The Stationmaster

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Yes, never thought of things like that.

 

Because it is a standard ticket, it also begs the question, are there any rules normal passenger TOCs have to conform to that a charter operator doesn't that would be an issue with charter coach sets (thinking of disability access, toilets, bike storage, in train passenger announcements, ect)

 

Just thinking, if something went wrong, would Northern be obliged to provide a rail replacement bus?

 

Found this in another thread from the Arriva Northern invitation to tender

 

 

 

 

Just a thought, how different is this to the ScotRail 'Steam Specials' on the Borders Line and Waverley Line late last year?

 

I reckon the answer to the ticketing issue might be dealt with by a requirement to reserve a seat (even if it is not charged for) which would indicated the passenger will have accepted any specific Conditions (of carriage) applicable to riding on these trains.  The other issues you raise do of course further set these trains apart from the normal timetabled service and should one be cancelled there would, presumably, be a normal service train running which would offer an alternative way of making the journey for which a ticket is held.  Incidentally bicycles are permitted on the oked service trains although presumably these steam hauled trains will have brakevans so maybe room might be found for bikes?

 

Thus a number of issues do exist - which could presumably be answered by Northern where anyone inclined to ask them?  Overall I continue to think that the steam hauled trains are what they are being portrayed as by the Friends of the S&C rather than what 'Rail' has suggested they are as 'replacements' for the normal service - especially as what we know of the steam hauled timings seems to show that the trains could be pathed as additionals to the normal dmu service.

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Metr0Land

Metr0Land

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I reckon the answer to the ticketing issue might be dealt with by a requirement to reserve a seat (even if it is not charged for) which would indicated the passenger will have accepted any specific Conditions (of carriage) applicable to riding on these trains.

Isn't it the case that TOCs can't run charter trains? However, when it came to things like Class 101 farewell tours, and Class 45 on MML before St Pancras rebuilding etc, people realised that TOCs can run booked reliefs, and this was the device used for such services. 

 

There still needs to be someone with the safety case etc to run the appropriate stock, but I believe TOCs can still charter someone else's stock to run a booked relief as a way of covering all the bases.

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Chris116

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Tickets now available? 
 
 

 

Settle and Carlisle Friends advertise the trains but Northern Rail web site does not have the train from Appleby at 1507 on the list that can be booked. So cannot book anything at the moment!

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The Stationmaster

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Isn't it the case that TOCs can't run charter trains? However, when it came to things like Class 101 farewell tours, and Class 45 on MML before St Pancras rebuilding etc, people realised that TOCs can run booked reliefs, and this was the device used for such services. 

 

There still needs to be someone with the safety case etc to run the appropriate stock, but I believe TOCs can still charter someone else's stock to run a booked relief as a way of covering all the bases.

 

TOCs can run Charter trains etc IF they have provision to so do so in their licence and safety case - and some originally did exactly that.  I don't know the current position.

 

The steam specials (shown as diesel hauled) are now up on Realtime Trains 

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Metr0Land

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The 'S&C' page is claiming they think this is the first time scheduled steam has happened in England in 50 years.  Am I dreaming it, or were there some scheduled trips over the S&C in the early 90's when they were short of steam crews with traction/route knowledge?   

 

Edit: Just found some pics of 80080 in Feb93 - were these trips open to the public, I have it in mind that they were?

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Reorte

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The 'S&C' page is claiming they think this is the first time scheduled steam has happened in England in 50 years.  Am I dreaming it, or were there some scheduled trips over the S&C in the early 90's when they were short of steam crews with traction/route knowledge?   

 

Edit: Just found some pics of 80080 in Feb93 - were these trips open to the public, I have it in mind that they were?

Rings a bell, Carlisle to Kirkby Stephen I believe (couldn't do it now, can't run around at KS any more).

 

Does the Jacobite count as scheduled steam? I suppose you can't buy normal tickets for it so no.

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DaveF

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The 'S&C' page is claiming they think this is the first time scheduled steam has happened in England in 50 years.  Am I dreaming it, or were there some scheduled trips over the S&C in the early 90's when they were short of steam crews with traction/route knowledge?   

 

Edit: Just found some pics of 80080 in Feb93 - were these trips open to the public, I have it in mind that they were?

 

 

Yes they were open to the public.  A number of locals used them instead of waiting for the normal service.

 

David

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Wheatley

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Metr0Land, on 26 Jan 2017 - 09:45, said:Metr0Land, on 26 Jan 2017 - 09:45, said:

The 'S&C' page is claiming they think this is the first time scheduled steam has happened in England in 50 years.  Am I dreaming it, or were there some scheduled trips over the S&C in the early 90's when they were short of steam crews with traction/route knowledge?   

 

Edit: Just found some pics of 80080 in Feb93 - were these trips open to the public, I have it in mind that they were?

In the WTT but not the public timetable and not advertised, Regional Railways (HQ in Birmingham) refused to publicise them as it wasn't core business. But they ran as Class 2s paid for by ICSTU. The first trip was packed, on the second trip the guard took a ticket machine with him and took over a thousand pounds, And all this before the internet.  

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The Stationmaster

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Apparently a sell out. It looks like there will be a scramble for the open seats. Special queuing to be in place at Leeds. With demand this high some are bound to be disappointed.

 

As its an 'advertised service' it could be a bit embarrassing if someone turns up at Garsdale for a train on the first morning and they're not allowed to get on - will they be provided with a taxi instead I wonder?

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LNER4479

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.... Great to see such a positive story about the railway.

... which is of course the whole point of the exercise! Great to see the operators and Network Rail embracing mainline heritage to pull off something like this. Hope it goes well and that the almost inevitable 'I couldn't get a seat' brigade don't unreasonably drown out the overriding good news story.

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