West Highland Line V4, a 1980's West Highland Line layout

[Trainnoob]

This is one of the best Layouts I've ever seen, the west highland line is my favourite stretch of railway line and your rendition is spot on to me.

Keep up the good work!

👍

[young37215]

3 hours ago, 03060 said:

My question being .... can movements from Fort William station up to Mallaig Junction 'only' be made under the directives of the colour light signals from either platforms 1 or 2 and not directly from either of the sidings ?

 

3 aspect signals FW 41 and 42 which are on the platform end both have calling on signals as do the run round and siding. The calling on signals all permit access to the running line for about 100m where another 3 aspect signal FW32 is located which controls/protects access to the section up to the semaphores at Fort William junction (Mallaig Junction in my era). So in answer to Ian's question, No.

 

For a visual explanation watch the first few minutes of Heavy Metal which shows the run from the station up to the juction in its entireity.  

 

 

[young37215]

On the subject of Fort William signals I am looking for some help. I want to add working signals but have no experience of who produces variants that meet my requirements. Ideally the signals will be capable of working with Megapoints so that I can incorporate them into my control panel and I need to speak with Dave Fenton to see if he has any guidance or experience. Pictured below are the signals I want to model, does anyone have any suggestions as to suitable signals to look at?

 

FW 41 and FW 42. I doubt that I will find anything that incorporates the calling on signals and can live without them.  

 

Ground located calling on signals for the loop and the siding. I doubt that I will find any with the filters above the lights, again I can live without these and my research suggests that the DCC Concepts version might be the way to go. I have some resin cast telephones which will get mounted on a piece of plasticard.

 

 

On the approach to Fort William station is what appears to be a standard 3 aspect protecting the station and FW32 which controls the section up to Fort William (Mallaig) Junction. I will not include FW32, just the station signal where again I can live without the the display on the top, the picture comes from the Heavy Metal DVD by Locomaster Profiles. 

 

 

Unrelated but a fantastic picture of 20048 which I had for haulage for the first time at the Severn Valley on Friday some 36 years later.

 

 

 

[Purnu]

Have you had a look at the options on offer here? Not entirely sure if they still do it but under the previous owner they offered a bespoke signal service too.

 

https://www.absoluteaspects.com

 

Edited October 2, 2022 by Purnu
Correct link.

[03060]

11 hours ago, young37215 said:

On the subject of Fort William signals I am looking for some help.

FW 41 and FW 42. I doubt that I will find anything that incorporates the calling on signals and can live without them.  

 

 

Good luck with the hunt for the signals Rob and thanks for this photo which not only includes the loco behind which first hauled me over the WHL but also my current 'subect of interest', namely a Mk2 BSOT which I think will be easier for me to model in 'N' by just adding a frosted window, some lettering and a short red stripe to a BSO rather than the Mk1 versions which requires quite a bit of butchery to a BCK !

 

Regards,

Ian.

[young37215]

20 hours ago, Purnu said:

Have you had a look at the options on offer here? Not entirely sure if they still do it but under the previous owner they offered a bespoke signal service too.

 

https://www.absoluteaspects.com

 

 

Interesting web site, these look like decent kit. They do a route indicator and ground signal in addition to the standard 3 aspect MAS signals. Not cheap but what is?, certainly one to explore further. As a next step I'll talk to Dave Fenton at Megapoints to tap into his knowledge and experience. 

 

[young37215]

A challenging few days with my Megapoints network causing me more difficulties than my limited competence with matters electrical could handle. After taking Dave Fenton's counsel it appears the addition of the Fort William servo controller has exhausted the capacity/range of the network and I have purchased 2 CAN adaptors to extend the range and improve the quality of signal around the network. The Megapoints guides all state that the range of the network is finite and that adaptors might prove necessary; I just hope that they resolve my problem.

 

All very frustrating, I really want to get back to operations to test out the work completed at Fort William. In the meantime I attempted to get my fix of train playing by running the rather loud 37175 on an engineers working which I managed to video arriving at Garelochead.

 

 

 

[franciswilliamwebb]

Ooh, that video just oozes! 😎

[mallaig1983]

Another wonderful video, thanks for sharing Rob. I hope you don’t mind me asking but who makes the signals that you’ve used? With Glenfinnan now moved to the planning stage I’ve been looking into the signals.

sorry you’ve been having a bit of a mare with the megapoints system and fingers crossed for you for a speedy resolution. 🤞

[ISW]

5 hours ago, young37215 said:

After taking Dave Fenton's counsel it appears the addition of the Fort William servo controller has exhausted the capacity/range of the network and

Rob,

 

By that do you mean the 'data' capacity of the network has been reached or the physical 'length' has been reached? I recall a MegaPoints video where Dave showed the network cable could be hundreds of metres long ...

 

On my layout, more by accident than design, I have 2 separate MegaPoint 'networks', one each for the Upper & Lower levels, each with a MultiPanel. Maybe that's helped me out without me knowing. Is that an option on your layout to split into 2 MegaPoint networks?

 

Ian

[young37215]

16 hours ago, mallaig1983 said:

Another wonderful video, thanks for sharing Rob. I hope you don’t mind me asking but who makes the signals that you’ve used? With Glenfinnan now moved to the planning stage I’ve been looking into the signals.

sorry you’ve been having a bit of a mare with the megapoints system and fingers crossed for you for a speedy resolution. 🤞

 

All signals on the layout are MSE kits which I have bought in completed form and automated by servos controlled by the Megapoints network. 

 

11 hours ago, ISW said:

Rob,

 

By that do you mean the 'data' capacity of the network has been reached or the physical 'length' has been reached? I recall a MegaPoints video where Dave showed the network cable could be hundreds of metres long ...

 

On my layout, more by accident than design, I have 2 separate MegaPoint 'networks', one each for the Upper & Lower levels, each with a MultiPanel. Maybe that's helped me out without me knowing. Is that an option on your layout to split into 2 MegaPoint networks?

 

Ian

 

The problem arose when I added another servo controller. I was able to programme the controller as normal but when connected to the network not only would the new controller not work but the existing controller immediately behind the new one in the daisy chain started behaving eratically. When I disconnected the new controller everything reverted to normal operation.

 

I am not sure of the precise technical issue, I think constrained data capacity is the good way of describing it although I believe that the 'noise' of various electrics located in the proximity of the network cable also has a detrimental effect. The network is about 30M in length which is considerably shorter than that in the Megapoints video ISW refers to and the best words I have found to describe the effect of a CAN is to 'amplify' the signal strength. I don't think a second Multipanel would resolve the data capacity issue which is cable rather than device related. I have about 75 servos around the network which is less than 50% the advertised capacity of a single Multipanel and it's cheaper to buy 2 CAN than another Multipanel!

 

Dave Fenton has been helpful in responding to my e-mails over the weekend, I hope to have the new hardware early next week to find out if it resolves the problem. 

 

 

[young37215]

Oh what fun, electrical issues have dogged the last 10 days.  The ongoing challenge of adding a servo controller (SC) is still unresolved despite considerable time and money being thrown at the problem, if you have seen my Megapoints Network Problems thread you will have some idea of the extent of the situation. Partly in frustration and partly to test the residual network, earlier today I unplugged the new Fort William SC and re-started the Megapoints system. Everything worked as it should and as it has for the last 2 years. This at least confirms my view that the problem is specific to the new hardware and extended network which I will be discussing with Dave Fenton tomorrow as he offered to have a phone call to review where we are.

 

I could not pass up the opportunity to run a few trains just to confirm everything was OK and I am delighted to report that it was. I started a fresh days operations and began moving trains around. 37043 was captured as it arrived at Garelochead on its journey to Fort William with 7B02.

 

  

[billywhizz]

Hi Rob. 
sorry to hear about the continued electrical gremlins. Hopefully the call with Dave tomorrow will go some way to getting it sorted. 
Quick question regarding your station buildings at Garelochead and Ardlui, are they kits or scratch built? 
kind regards,

Bill. 

[young37215]

11 hours ago, billywhizz said:

Quick question regarding your station buildings at Garelochead and Ardlui, are they kits or scratch built? 

 

All station buildings (except for Mallaig) and signal boxes are scratch built for me out of card by Ed Hall, a modeller based in Northern Ireland. ModelRail ran an article on his Glenfinnan building several years back.  

[young37215]

A constructive call with Dave Fenton yesterday living up to his reputation for being helpful. On the back of our discussion Dave will send some resistors to fit to my Multipanel that should reduce the interference or 'ringing' on the network which he believes the likely cause of the directional LED's flickering.  Watch this space...

 

In what I think passes for early morning light, 37081 calls at Ardlui with the northbound sleeper. 

 

 

 

 

 

[young37215]

No post yesterday, it was unrealistic of me to expect anything this quick despite my optimisim. I managed a few more movements from the early morning of the 1983 WTT but was restricted by the tempermental Megapoints network where some parts worked perfectly, both servo and directional LED were activated by the usual button press on the control panel, others only the servo would activate and some cases nothing worked at all. Having become accustomed to having the direction of points visible on the control panel, losing the capability highlighted just how much I have become reliant on the the Megapoints network to operate. 

 

37081 continued northbound, here seen arriving at Crianlarich.

 

 

 

 

[ISW]

3 hours ago, young37215 said:

Having become accustomed to having the direction of points visible on the control panel, losing the capability highlighted just how much I have become reliant on the the Megapoints network to operate. 

Rob,

 

That I can relate to. Many of my turnouts / junctions are barely visible, and so I'm very reliant on my MegaPoints and mimic panel to operate my layout. When I had one 12Servo board 'throw a wobbler' all my efforts went into getting it back operating properly (it needed a full-on CTRL-ALT-BRK to fix it).

 

Ian

[young37215]

19 hours ago, ISW said:

Many of my turnouts / junctions are barely visible, and so I'm very reliant on my MegaPoints and mimic panel to operate my layout.

 

In my case it is a question of distance between the control panel and the 4 corners of the layout as well as the need frog polarity changing. Having to walk to the station to check the direction of points before moving a train significantly slows everything down. Yesterday the more I attempted to operate, the greater the Megapoints network disruption became. Re-boots of the network were increasingly required which greatly slowed down the timetable until in the end it became too difficult to run. Hopefully Postman Pat comes baring gifts today....

 

37043 and 7D19 got as far as Ardlui before my patience gave out. 

 

 

 

 

[young37215]

The Megapoints delivery arrived, the suppressor was duly fitted but had no discernable effect. Dave Fenton has now suggested that I split the network into 2 to reduce its length and the amount of noise created. 

 

Thoroughy frustrated I stripped the Megapoints network down to just the 2 servo controller (SC) the standalone Multipanel controls, tested to see that these worked and started a re-build process adding one SC to the network at a time. I managed to get the 5 SC on the lower level all working as they should which meant that I had half of the control panel, the stations in the pictire below, shown below functioning.  

 

 

The remaining 3 SC are controlled through an adjacent second control panel board. The cable run that links control panel board 1 to control panel board 2 exceeds the length recommended by Megapoints and despite having worked for the last 2 years, reconnecting the two boards caused the flickering LED problem to recur. Removing the connections, re-boot and the 5 SC resume normal function.  

 

 

So the plan is now to add a second Multipanel and create a second network to control the upper level comprising the remaining 3 SC's at Mallaig Junction, Fort Willaim and Mallaig. I'll need to reprogramme the 3 SC with different addresses which is easy enough, I just hope that this does not 'wipe' the settings for the connected servos. At least I was able to move a few trains with the lower level functional once again, the much delayed sleeper finally managed to depart Crianlarich.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 2, 2022 by young37215

[ISW]

3 hours ago, young37215 said:

Dave Fenton has now suggested that I split the network into 2 to reduce its length and the amount of noise created

Rob,

 

From what you/Dave are saying it appears I 'lucked into' having a stable MegaPoints layout. My longest network cable is ~6m, but is kept away from all other cables by ~25cm and at board joints it has its own connector away from the connector with all the power wires.

 

Did you try running your 'long' network cable by a different route, say using a separate long wire just running across the floor, to see if that worked? 

 

Ian

[young37215]

On 02/11/2022 at 11:12, ISW said:

Rob,

 

From what you/Dave are saying it appears I 'lucked into' having a stable MegaPoints layout. My longest network cable is ~6m, but is kept away from all other cables by ~25cm and at board joints it has its own connector away from the connector with all the power wires.

 

Did you try running your 'long' network cable by a different route, say using a separate long wire just running across the floor, to see if that worked? 

 

Ian

 

My issue appears to be related to the cable lengths connecting 3 sets of expansion boards I needed to operate my 75 servos, not the length of the network. To be fair to Megapoints the text below is extracted from the Multipanel user guide which is pretty self explanatory. 

 

NOTE: MultiPanel module expansion boards are designed to expand within the confines of a single mimic panel. Expansion data leads should be kept as short as possible with the total length of data cable not exceeding ½ meter. Do not try to run extension boards to a second panel as excessive ringing will occur. Additional panels should only be configured with a local MultiPanel module.

 

Dave Fenton's support in helping me resolve this has been pretty good and he has resisted telling me to RTFM which he would every right to do!  

 

Late last night I finished wiring up the second multipanel. Although I need more servo cables to complete the new network, I ran some cable across the floor by way of a short cut to see if it all worked. After tightening up a loose power feed everything sprang into life and appeared to function as I would expect. I will test more extensively today but am hopeful that I am nearing the resolution of this painful episode. There should be a dividend, I have upgraded the Megapoints network with superior power supply cable and created flexibility by installing the second Multipanel which hopefully increases the resilience of the network going forward.  Given how integrated the network has become in the operation of WHL4 that can only be a good thing. 

 

For those who are interested, the first picture shows a Multipanel and pair of expansion boards in situ on the rear of the second Control Panel. A pair of expansion boards double the capacity of a Multipanel from its standalone capacity of 2 servo controllers (24 switches and LEDs). WHL4 has 8 servo controllers hence the old single Multipanel arrangement required 3 sets of expansion boards.  Although a rats nest of wires, the plug and play nature of Megapoints makes it very easy to wire.

 

 

The second Control Panel, I need some practice in taking panoramamic pictures. 

 

[03060]

My head is hurting just looking at that first picture of the wiring ! How on Earth you manage to convey all of this over a telephone call, I'll never know.

 

As I cannot offer any (useful) input to your electrical issues other than wishing you the best of luck .... can I at least distract you briefly with this image (taken by transportsteve2011) that I've just come across relating to a long passed theme discussed on here, that being the movement in trains of the humble wooden clay wagon, I'm not quite sure as to what the last wagon is.

Regards,

Ian.

 

Edited November 4, 2022 by 03060
Photo credit added.

[ISW]

1 hour ago, young37215 said:

My issue appears to be related to the cable lengths connecting 3 sets of expansion boards I needed to operate my 75 servos, not the length of the network. To be fair to Megapoints the text below is extracted from the Multipanel user guide which is pretty self explanatory. 

 

NOTE: MultiPanel module expansion boards are designed to expand within the confines of a single mimic panel. Expansion data leads should be kept as short as possible with the total length of data cable not exceeding ½ meter. Do not try to run extension boards to a second panel as excessive ringing will occur. Additional panels should only be configured with a local MultiPanel module.

Rob,

 

Ah, now I understand the basic difference between you arrangement and my own. Whereas you are creating mimic panels with 'expansion boards' inside (wired back to a central MultiPanel), I have a MultiPanel inside each of my 3 mimic panels (with additional Expansion Boards as necessary). At the time, a few years back, it was an expensive arrangement so I can well see why you went down your route. The current prices of MultiPanels make my arrangement even less financially viable!

 

Ian

[young37215]

Yesterday I managed to complete testing of the revised Megapoints network (the wiring is much simpler then yesterdays pictures suggest) and am pleased to report that at long last I have a fully functional control system once more. Fort William will be returned to the layout in the next few days and I can get some much need play time.

 

 

22 hours ago, 03060 said:

My head is hurting just looking at that first picture of the wiring ! How on Earth you manage to convey all of this over a telephone call, I'll never know.

 

As I cannot offer any (useful) input to your electrical issues other than wishing you the best of luck .... can I at least distract you briefly with this image (taken by transportsteve2011) that I've just come across relating to a long passed theme discussed on here, that being the movement in trains of the humble wooden clay wagon, I'm not quite sure as to what the last wagon is.

Regards,

Ian.

 

 

I'll hazard a guess that the train is vacum braked with TTV's, OWV's and a solitary MCV loaded with coal. Although most freight of the period had gone over to air brakes, there were still a number of vacum braked wagons in use. With 3 northbound freight trains booked over the WHL in 1982, it would not have been difficult for Mossend to make one a vacum braked consist. Use of TTV's allowed the wagons to be hung on the back of the vacum braked Mk1 coaches used on the WHL, the OWV's carried on until replaced by PRA's a few years later and the odd MCV or two were usually hung on the back of air braked freights into the mid 1980's supplying coal depots at Crianlarich and Fort William. 

 

A more prototypical 1980's consist comprised of a mix of air braked rolling stock. The picture below is classic WHL with the curving line running on a ledge carved into the side of a mountain surrounded by lush foliage and trees which will be a guide in developing the scenic area between Arrochar and Ardlui.   

 

 

 

 

[ISW]

On 04/11/2022 at 08:41, 03060 said:

My head is hurting just looking at that first picture of the wiring ! How on Earth you manage to convey all of this over a telephone call, I'll never know.

Just for laughs, here's what happens when you do it 'neatly':

 

Nah, not much of an improvement is it?

 

Although MegaPoints wiring looks a 'rats nest' it's not actually complicated. The MultiPanel board is bottom-right and has 2 rows of pins. The Upper row has a block of 3-pin connectors, and each one goes to a pair of LEDs (back / red wires) for a turnout. The Lower row has a block of 2-pin connectors, and each one goes to the corresponding Push Button (green / yellow ... mostly) for a turnout.

 

The wiring would look really simple if you laid out put the push-buttons and corresponding LEDs into a vertical column (or horizontal row). Then all the wires would simply 'fan out' from the MultiPanel. It only looks 'complicated' because we all lay out the LEDs & push buttons to 'mimic' the reality of the layout.

 

Ian