Smart Meter = smart move?

[phil-b259]

11 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

This has nothing to do with the topic, please keep politics out of it otherwise the thread will get locked

 

Its not politics to observe that energy generation facilities have no kept pace with needs / population growth in this country for the past 10 years and its pretty evident WHY this is the case. For a long time it simply hasn't mattered as gas imports were cheap and the doctrine of 'we can buy in what we like' via undersea interconnectors remained a cornerstone of British economic / governmental policy.

 

For what its worth other countries aren't perfect either - Germany's reliance on Russian gas for example has come back to bite them in a big way...

 

But energy security to my, mind does NOT involve making hard-up low-income families have to choose between heating and eating. Kids having to go to bed wearing several coats just to keep warm and struggling to do their homework in freezing bedrooms. Rather than sit there in your ivory tower and pretend (1) it isn't an issue or (2) it is off topic to Smart meters when by extension smart meters make it so much easier to push even more people into fuel poverty is a rather unpleasant trait.

 

As to keeping Politics off RMweb - Its a fact the economic policy of ANY country is determined by the Politicians that run it. As such there is ALLWAYS a political discussion to virtually everything which may come up for discussion on here.

Edited November 29, 2022 by phil-b259

[hayfield]

4 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Nope.

 

The alternative is SPENDING MONEY on new generation facilities.

 

The cold hard truth is for years the energy companies have been shirking their responsibilities in this regard wile sweating the assets for all they are worth to provide shareholders dividends while the Government sit back and say 'its up to the free market'

 

Smart meters are simply more of the same - more excuses for 6the industry and the Government to do nothing while making life even more miserable for those who are already at the margins.

 

Phil

 

The government wants to replace (and enlarge) the nuclear power close to me, but no one living in the area wants it, like the proposed (and passed) solar farm on the outskirts of our village. I don't mind either providing with Bradwell road traffic does not engulf the local roads (rail and sea routes available) with hundreds of large lorries. I do agree we need more resources, but the activists will and are doing everything to stop or delay things. Stop blaming business or politics its us that's stopping it 

[hayfield]

1 minute ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Its not politics to observe that energy generation facilities have no kept pace with needs / population growth in this country for the past 10 years and its pretty evident WHY this is the case. For a long time it simply hasn't mattered as gas imports were cheap and the doctrine of 'we can buy in what we like' via undersea interconnectors remained a cornerstone of British economic / governmental policy.

 

For what its worth other countries aren't perfect either - Germany's reliance on Russian gas for example has come back to bite them in a big way...

 

But energy security to my, mind does NOT involve making hard-up low-income families have to choose between heating and eating. Kids having to go to bed wearing several coats just to keep warm and struggling to do their homework in freezing bedrooms. Rather than sit there in your ivory tower and pretend (1) it isn't an issue or (2) it is off topic to Smart meters when by extension smart meters make it so much easier to push even more people into fuel poverty is a rather unpleasant trait.

 

As to keeping Politics off RMweb - Its a fact the economic policy of ANY country is determined by the Politicians that run it. As such there is ALLWAYS a political discussion to virtually everything which may come up for discussion on here.

 

You will get the thread locked,

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, Nick C said:

I've never said anyone was pressured or connect into getting one, although there were certainly articles suggesting that it was happening - see here for example.

 

If you do get one, they can force you off your tarriff onto a prepayment basis without having to visit to install a special meter (for which they might need a court order if you don't co-operate by allowing them access).

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2022/11/smart-meter-prepayment-switched-remotely-rights/

 

This can be a particular problem for those unable to pay their (increased) bills.  This more likely to happen to be those who are in financial difficulties generally anyway, and they will then be charged more for such power as they use than when on a normal credit basis, as well as having the cash flow impact of having to pay earlier than the rest of us.

 

The is a priority services register for vulnerable people.  It's supposed to protect people who need electricity for health reaasons etc.  However it's a separate list kept by each company.  So if you decide to change suppliers (or have your supplier changed with being asked), you're effectively removed from the register until you have applied with the new company. 

 

 

 

 

[phil-b259]

Just now, hayfield said:

 

Phil

 

The government wants to replace (and enlarge) the nuclear power close to me, but no one living in the area wants it, like the proposed (and passed) solar farm on the outskirts of our village. I don't mind either providing with Bradwell road traffic does not engulf the local roads (rail and sea routes available) with hundreds of large lorries. I do agree we need more resources, but the activists will and are doing everything to stop or delay things. Stop blaming business or politics its us that's stopping it 

 

But the point is this crisis hasn't magically turned up overnight!

 

With population growth and ever more energy being seen as a necessity in our daily lives (compare the amount of energy required to charge a smartphone compared to the amount of energy a basic corded phone (that gets its energy from the telecoms network to ring) its obvious that energy generation requirements would continually be increasing as the years pass regardless of how efficient you want to make things.

 

So given that someone (be it the energy industry or the Government) could have easily seen this coming and chose not to do enough in time its plain wrong to say the answer seems has to be make people pay more!

 

Insulate Britian might well annoy the hell out of people but from a society perspective their calls to invest in things like insulating people's homes are far more ethical than giving middle- and higher-income earners the chance to save money via Smart meters

 

(I say this because high- and middle-income earners are likely to live in better quality housing than low-income earners and also have far more 'non essentials' they can cut back on if needs be than low-income earners)

[phil-b259]

12 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

You will get the thread locked,

 

Only if you want it that way.

 

Its the government (and politicians) who decided I should pay a Smart meter leavy on my bill to fund the roll out of something I have deep reservations about given the nature of the people who suffer most from fuel poverty in the UK.

 

The Government (made up of politicians) are quite explicit that Smart meters ARE part of their overall energy policy.

 

Thus energy policy (and the various tolls / equipment / initiatives mentioned within) are no different to rail policy, transport policy, farming policy, etc. they ALL have a political dimension and it does no credit to pretend otherwise however much you may dislike my personal take on the various issues that brings forth.

[SHMD]

I really hope this thread is not locked as it is truly educational and informative.

 

No arguing just some different points of views.

 

 

Kev.

[woodenhead]

This was 8 years ago and yet gas is still biggest provider of our energy.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2012/oct/14/george-osborne-dash-for-gas

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1032260/UK_Energy_in_Brief_2021.pdf

 

We need more wind, more solar and a good back up from Nuclear - we should look at gas exactly like coal - there as a back up and why not build a model where we actually are able to focus more on exporting electricity so it begins to pay for investment.

[PhilH]

15 minutes ago, SHMD said:

I really hope this thread is not locked as it is truly educational and informative.

 

No arguing just some different points of views.

 

 

Kev.

It’s certainly been long on prejudice and opinion, unfortunately seemingly short on fact to back those up with.

 

Edited November 29, 2022 by PhilH

[SHMD]

2 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

Nick

 

I can understand where you are coming from and the sound advice you are giving, yes I should take the same care with the smart items for my energy system as I do with all other smart devices, including the devices we use to access RMweb

 

Someone else questioned the reasons why I got a smart meter, none of them were accurate and despite requests no evidence or advice has been forthcoming.

 

Smart meter security is down to the providers and is their liability, much the same way my phone security is down to the phone network & phone maker, even with all their funds computer and phone companies have security lapses and get fined appropriately. Being careful is very wise council but totally different to not using one

 

Another point I will answer - security.

 

Once again, there is more than one important issue here.

There is the "micro" scale security issues...

...and then there are the "macro" scale security issues.

 

 

Firstly, the "micro" scale issues - Basically, your personal and home security.

A "Smart" meter is ALL about communicating what is currently happening. Nothing to do with smartness in any way shape or form here - just pure data. Convenience if you wish, BUT, collected over the long term LOTS of behavioural patterns emerge. This is VERY useful info to both friend and foe.

 

I "trust" my providers NOT to "mine" my energy usage "data" but THERE is info there: -

..Daily usage - useful for predicting usage, especially for peak demands - OR likely attendance / active times.

...Seasonal usage - useful for predicting / allocating assets for quarterly requirements - useful for predicting, well reliable predictions, patterns!

....Annual usage - base load plus large scale data patterns - useful for minimum energy coverage requirements - and "gaps" in routine usage, ie holidays.

Yes, the provider should / is responsible for security here, but as has already confirmed by Nick C, this is not infallible.

 

Secondly, security on the "macro" security - or national scale.

Again, more than one aspect here: -

..Pranksters - out to achieve notoriety through high profile disruption to energy supplies.

...Criminals - out for gain by blackmailing energy supply / distribution through various "withholding of service" methods.

....Cyber warfare - why bother to send in missiles to shutdown a substation when you can "remotely access" a chunk of users to manipulate demand to overload that distribution node - when required, where required and cheaply. How about cutting off all - insert operator of choice here - so that all their meters shut down? It would take weeks / months for the relatively few engineers to go around to reset / replace / update / bypass / whatever the required on a local level TIMES 7 million installations!

 

Or, my personal favourite, let's remotely switch on and off all my enemy countries properties - every 2 seconds - until the distribution network fails  -  whilst taking with it, a fair chunk of your households appliances !

 

 

Something that needs to be worried about / prevented BEFORE it can happen.

 

 

Kev.

 

[boxbrownie]

9 hours ago, Reorte said:

There's no such thing as 100% safe in any domain, so to a degree we're always trusting to luck. The question isn't ever really "is this completely safe?" it's "is this safe enough that it doesn't make sense to be concerned?"

 

Oh I don’t know, you haven’t seen my Daughters two IPO trained German Shepards, she trains the dogs on Mildenhall Airbase 😁

[cctransuk]

6 minutes ago, SHMD said:

 

Another point I will answer - security.

 

Once again, there is more than one important issue here.

There is the "micro" scale security issues...

...and then there are the "macro" scale security issues.

 

 

Firstly, the "micro" scale issues - Basically, your personal and home security.

A "Smart" meter is ALL about communicating what is currently happening. Nothing to do with smartness in any way shape or form here - just pure data. Convenience if you wish, BUT, collected over the long term LOTS of behavioural patterns emerge. This is VERY useful info to both friend and foe.

 

I "trust" my providers NOT to "mine" my energy usage "data" but THERE is info there: -

..Daily usage - useful for predicting usage, especially for peak demands - OR likely attendance / active times.

...Seasonal usage - useful for predicting / allocating assets for quarterly requirements - useful for predicting, well reliable predictions, patterns!

....Annual usage - base load plus large scale data patterns - useful for minimum energy coverage requirements - and "gaps" in routine usage, ie holidays.

Yes, the provider should / is responsible for security here, but as has already confirmed by Nick C, this is not infallible.

 

Secondly, security on the "macro" security - or national scale.

Again, more than one aspect here: -

..Pranksters - out to achieve notoriety through high profile disruption to energy supplies.

...Criminals - out for gain by blackmailing energy supply / distribution through various "withholding of service" methods.

....Cyber warfare - why bother to send in missiles to shutdown a substation when you can "remotely access" a chunk of users to manipulate demand to overload that distribution node - when required, where required and cheaply. How about cutting off all - insert operator of choice here - so that all their meters shut down? It would take weeks / months for the relatively few engineers to go around to reset / replace / update / bypass / whatever the required on a local level TIMES 7 million installations!

 

Or, my personal favourite, let's remotely switch on and off all my enemy countries properties - every 2 seconds - until the distribution network fails  -  whilst taking with it, a fair chunk of your households appliances !

 

 

Something that needs to be worried about / prevented BEFORE it can happen.

 

 

Kev.

 

 

All this because of smart meters?

 

Really?

 

Don't you think that, in this interconnected, digital world, there are more effective ways of causing chaos than hacking smart metres?

 

..... or is Putin sitting monitoring my energy usage via my smart meter?

 

😄

 

CJI.

[SHMD]

2 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

All this because of smart meters?

 

Really?

 

Don't you think that, in this interconnected, digital world, there are more effective ways of causing chaos than hacking smart metres?

 

..... or is Putin sitting monitoring my energy usage via my smart meter?

 

😄

 

CJI.

 

Yes, the potential is there - and not just from from the obvious.

 

Most (current) damage is being being done by bored teenagers or criminal gangs extorting for money - there is potential for far greater mischief....

 

The greater "interconnectivity" the greater the opportunity.

 

 

Kev.

 

[cctransuk]

2 minutes ago, SHMD said:

 

Yes, the potential is there - and not just from from the obvious.

 

Most (current) damage is being being done by bored teenagers or criminal gangs extorting for money - there is potential for far greater mischief....

 

The greater "interconnectivity" the greater the opportunity.

 

 

Kev.

 

 

I think that the world has far greater matters to be concerned about than the threat posed by smart meters - unless one is paranoid about such issues.

 

CJI.

[SHMD]

14 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

I think that the world has far greater matters to be concerned about than the threat posed by smart meters - unless one is paranoid about such issues.

 

CJI.

 

A threat that MUST be countered BEFORE hand - that is the minimum, unless you just want to let the IOT designers leave everything open to opportunists.

[cctransuk]

21 minutes ago, SHMD said:

 

A threat that MUST be countered BEFORE hand - that is the minimum, unless you just want to let the IOT designers leave everything open to opportunists.

 

If you say so - but do try to chill out; stressing about things that are outside your control is NOT good for you - I know!

 

CJI.

[SHMD]

ok

 

[APOLLO]

From 2011 when our one of our biggest LNG storage facilities was closed.

 

https://www.offshore-energy.biz/uk-national-grid-to-withdraw-remaining-lng-stocks-from-partington-facility/

 

Injection of fresh LNG was not possible because the outcome of an invitation to shippers in 2009 for expressions of interest in long term capacity at all three of National Grid’s LNG storage sites suggested the shippers did not place sufficient value on the facilities to justify major investment in them by the company, and National Grid subsequently decommissioned the liquefaction equipment at Partington, along with two of the site’s four storage tanks.

 

So money IS at the root of our current situation re gas storage, and it started to happen years ago.

 

I visited Partington LNG as an apprentice when it was built in the 70's, a state of the art facility. By 2010 It was getting life expired and the powers that be decided to "wing it" by closing it without replacement (along with others, Dyvenor Arms Wales, Glenmavis Scotland and Avonmouth Bristol) 

 

We reap what we sow.

 

This is an interesting read re Partington LNG history.

 

http://www.oldflames.org.uk/Partington.pdf

 

Luckily we have LNG import facilities at Milford Haven and Grain (Thames) along with some storage at these sites, but nothing like Europe has.

 

We are in a pile of poo and getting deeper year on year.

 

Brit15

[Reorte]

4 hours ago, PhilH said:

It’s certainly been long on prejudice and opinion, unfortunately seemingly short on fact to back those up with.

 

Prejudice? Need to be careful with that one. As for opinion, it's ultimately opinion that determines whether something is desirable or not. It needs to be formed with a good grasp of facts, but the facts are a part of the means to the end of determing what is desirable, alone they tell us nothing on that score, just what is.

 

WIthout scrutinising closely I don't think that anyone's really said much that's factually wrong, which is why the arguments continue because ultimately it is a matter of opinion. Like everything else that matters. We can all take a different opinion on things, and on the opinions on others, finding some of them interesting, some of them great, and others terrible. Generally none of them are absolutely wrong in a logical sense (as long as we're talking reasonable people, which we are here).

[Michael Hodgson]

3 hours ago, SHMD said:

 

A threat that MUST be countered BEFORE hand - that is the minimum, unless you just want to let the IOT designers leave everything open to opportunists.

Apparently small risks should not be disregarded.

 

A few  years ago nobody thought we needed to be able to invent and test new vaccines in minimal time, gear up for their mass production and distribution on an unprecedented scale, lock down whole countries and restrict industrial production, international trade travel.  BEFORE the pandemic we would not have attached much credence to the threat that a new and unknown diesease could spread so quickly and so widely and killing so many people worldwide and causing drastic disruption to everyone's way of life.

[shady]

I think Hayfields view on the benefits of smart meters is distorted because like a lot of people he never used to pay attention to the amount of energy used prior to having a smart meter, any savings made have been due to paying more attention to his energy usage and the same results were possible with or without a smart meter. 

 

The actual smart meter does not tell you anything , its the remote display that shows the info (and it is possible to have the same info from a wireless clamp meter display and has been for years).

 

The remote display is the weak link , the energy provider does not have to replace them if they fail , and some of them do not show the real prices , (mine has still not changed to show the October prices , and I have seen others this year that were not showing the April increases). Whilst I dont personaly care that the pricing info is correct , the fact that most of the remote displays seem to default to showing the daily usage in pounds and pence rather than in kWh means some people are being lulled into a false sense of security as they are actually using more than they think they are. Even knowing how much you are using at any point in time, does not tell you WHAT is using the power, for that you need much more detailed info than a smart meter can provide. 

 

We have all been screwed over by the smart meter program as we have all had the costs added to our energy bills, 

whether we have one or not.

 

A lot of people dont seem to realise that not only can the supplier remotely change the tarrif or change to a prepayment meter , they can also remotely cut off the supply. This means that it only takes one mouse click, one computer glitch or one hack and you have no supply.

 

Whilst due to lack of forward planning it is possible we will have rolling blackouts this winter, people dont need to have a smart meter to help reduce the chance, a simple national news item asking people to reduce power usage on certain days/times can help.

 

The only reasons I decided to have one fitted during the summer was , my existing meter had no decimal places so only showed whole kWh's* , I guessed that either better tarrifs or load shifting options would be available this winter and as I am in a rental property I wont be living here long term. 

 

*  Living in an all electric rental property with many intergrated appliances that I can not measure the actual individual  power usage and needing to confirm what was using more than it should be, only being able to see whole kWh was not accurate enough (it was the Fridge Freezer).

 

Long term the fact that smart meters can be switched off remotely would enable a more targeted power outage rather than the current system of EVERYTHING within in a connection area (some people have rather quaint ideas that Hospitals and other important users would still be connected if rolling blackouts have to happen this or any other winter).

 

At present its not possible to get a better tarrif as the "price cap" tarrif is the best one available. In the future it looks like smart meters will offer better tarrifs as a carrot to get more people to use them, those not on a smart meter will simply be charged higher prices. 

 

I think the kindest thing I can say about the UK's plan for future electricity provision would be "You mean we actually have a plan".

 

[jjb1970]

5 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

I think that the world has far greater matters to be concerned about than the threat posed by smart meters - unless one is paranoid about such issues.

 

CJI.

 

Yes, but that doesn't detract from potential vulnerabilities. While a state actor may well concentrate on the bigger opportunities to shut down an energy grid in a war, they could cause a bit of harmless mischief to embarrass enemies in less hot disputes.

[jjb1970]

On the wider question of energy security, I think it's too easy to blame governments. In the Western world politicians are weathervanes, reactive to what they think will win votes. For decades European (and I include Britain as a European country, regardless of whether it is in the EU) has avoided difficult choices. Germany is probably the best example, for many years they've relied on cheap Russian gas because it allowed their industry to remain competitive. They could have re-orientated their energy supply at any time, but the much higher cost of alternatives would seriously undermine the competitiveness of German industry and politicians and society decided economics trumped any concerns over relying on Russia. That's a rational choice, but if you make it you have to accept the risks and what it means for maintaining good relations with Russia. Few politicians lead and push making difficult choices or telling their voters what their easy path means in terms of long-term implications because voters don't want to hear it.

[hayfield]

14 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

If you do get one, they can force you off your tarriff onto a prepayment basis without having to visit to install a special meter (for which they might need a court order if you don't co-operate by allowing them access).

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2022/11/smart-meter-prepayment-switched-remotely-rights/

 

This can be a particular problem for those unable to pay their (increased) bills.  This more likely to happen to be those who are in financial difficulties generally anyway, and they will then be charged more for such power as they use than when on a normal credit basis, as well as having the cash flow impact of having to pay earlier than the rest of us.

 

The is a priority services register for vulnerable people.  It's supposed to protect people who need electricity for health reaasons etc.  However it's a separate list kept by each company.  So if you decide to change suppliers (or have your supplier changed with being asked), you're effectively removed from the register until you have applied with the new company. 

 

 

 

 

 

Michael

 

I totally agree we must help those who suffer energy poverty and to be quite honest charging them more to use pay as you go is insane. But this is not the fault of smart meters, in fact if someone is struggling to pay for their energy the quicker they can get help the better and cheaper for them in the long term it will be. There are schemes available and perhaps aiding them to access the funds quicker is the answer, plus there is talk of heating prescribed by the doctors for those with health issues.

 

But this is a minority group, most are like ourselves who can afford to pay our bills. I like many millions pay as I go or even before I use it. Rather than pay off a debt every summer over the past 6 years I have moved from being in debit in the spring to being in credit in the autumn, it suits my budgeting to do it this way, my sister has a special bank account which does it this way for all her utility bills.

 

But just because Smart Meters may have a negative effect on a small group, does not mean its bad for everyone else. 

[hayfield]

12 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

I think that the world has far greater matters to be concerned about than the threat posed by smart meters - unless one is paranoid about such issues.

 

CJI.

 

CJI

 

Sometimes I really think they are scraping the barrel with reasons not to use smart meters and blaiming them for all societies ills. If we took this rational with bank accounts, driving, travelling by air etc we would do nothing other than revert back to living in caves.

 

As a species we are slowly destroying our environment, here is a tool which can be used to change our behaviour and save us some money, or at best blackouts. Rather than expect others to do something smart meters are one of the tools where we can do something rather than waiting for others to do it