coachmann Posted October 15, 2017 Author Share Posted October 15, 2017 The L&Y 0-6-0 was also doing solo runs along the whole line with a full length train. Fireman was beginning to look a bit worse for wear this afternoon. Poor beggar. I never got to fire it although I emptied its Tender, but I did 52248 which was unofficially christened The Portvale Flyer after getting Oldham Latics supporters to a Cup-tie in time to watch the last 20 minutes of the second half in 1953! Bachmann could do worse than produce one as a companion for the Radial Tank. They got all over the place. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnauthorisedCinnamon Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 (edited) Someone would do well to launch a website where you can share CV tables for different loco/motor/decoder combinations Especially for DCC Sound Edited October 15, 2017 by UnauthorisedCinnamon 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Focalplane Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 Someone would do well to launch a website where you can share CV tables for different loco/motor/decoder combinations Especially for DCC Sound I agree, but. A few years ago I asked why UK sound file producers don't give samples of their sounds like was done in America. Only Youchoos responded, everyone else was silent! I do understand that people who record sounds have expended a lot of effort and do not want to see their hard work lifted from the internet. But, isn't the idea of sound for people to hear? How do people make a basic choice as to the quality of a sound file? Next, what do individual sound files contain and how do the CVs work? A very good question. The original NMRA rules seem to have been subsumed by all the special tricks different sound file generators are producing. This is becoming a real minefield whereby the consumer is potentially throwing away £100 a time on decoders that don't come up to expectations. Yes, the decoders can be re-blown, but that isn't easy when your decoder is hardwired and your loco is in a different country. And do it yourself programming equipment is not cheap and not something I want to get involved with anyway. I am not ready to give up on DCC sound, having locos that are sound equipped and over ten years old (North American QSI, Digitrax etc.) but I really do think the various UK leaders (there are several) need to start talking to each other. The other day I ran all my locos with F1 off. I let my imagination make the sounds and the result was not all that bad! God knows (I don't) how many sound decoders I have, so this posting might be a rant rather than a binding decision. Listen up, DCC sound sellers, the consumer is not all that happy! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Barry O Posted October 15, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 15, 2017 Just fitted a Locoman sound chip in a Hornby Stanier 2-6-4T. For the first time the CVs have been set so that you get the correct number of "chuffs" per wheel revolution..Why can't everyone else doing sound manage this? Baz 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Focalplane Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 Just fitted a Locoman sound chip in a Hornby Stanier 2-6-4T. For the first time the CVs have been set so that you get the correct number of "chuffs" per wheel revolution..Why can't everyone else doing sound manage this? Baz Southwest Digital managed this on my MOK 14XX. I couldn't believe it! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted October 15, 2017 Author Share Posted October 15, 2017 (edited) Just fitted a Locoman sound chip in a Hornby Stanier 2-6-4T. For the first time the CVs have been set so that you get the correct number of "chuffs" per wheel revolution..Why can't everyone else doing sound manage this? Baz The thing is the Locoman LMS sounds are an 8F 2-8-0 (4'.7½" drivers) and a Black Five (6' drivers) and you have put one of those soundfiles in your 2-6-4T (5.9" drivers), so it stands to reason you would have to re-set the chuff rate. If the chuff rate was spot on, you were just plumb lucky. While correct chuff rate is absolutely essential, DCC is designed to be adjusted to individual taste but, like a lot of things, it has to be learned the hard way by experimentation. There are clues in the written files beside each CV but their true meaning can sometimes be something else. Then there are CV's that only respond in conjunction with another CV. PGH of this forum created some word documents and each of my locos has its own sheet. Any CV alterations are written down and retained. Over a period of two years I have built up a lot of information so that when another loco is fitted with sound, I simply cross reference other sheets and use them as the starting basis. However, the characteristics of YouChoos, Digitrains and Locoman Zimo decoders all differ (I only use these sound makers). This applies particularly when trying to set up the secondary chuff; that is the one that cuts in automatically when a train is on the move and represents the driver winding back the reverser to use less steam. The initial starting chuff can be extended to run for a longer distance or a short distance. The secondary chuff can be made slightly quieter than the initial chuff or have a quiet chuffing along exhaust. I use the latter on the 64XX for the one coach auto train. The coasting can also be set up to work semi-automatically by reducing one speed notch and can also be set to work for very long periods before the exhaust cuts in again. Increasing one speed notch opens up the regulator again. Coasting can have loud clanks or none at all. Some GWR soundfiles also have the spitting vacuum pump and this too can be reduced in volume. Finally, braking can be accompanied by the hiss of brake application (F-key #2 on the later Zimo decoders) and brake squeal or grinding sound when almost at a halt. Again this is alterable or removed altogether. On YouChoos files, F-key #5 brings in alternative exhaust and coasting sounds. On Digitrains files this key is for shunting movements and makes the loco react faster to reversing direction and reduces momentum. Fascinating stuff....! I have only scraped the surface. Edited October 15, 2017 by coachmann 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted October 16, 2017 Author Share Posted October 16, 2017 (edited) The second of my two GWR Grange class locos had now had a complete repaint, after which it was weathered. I aimed for a finish in between a Hornby factory weathered finish and the ex.works Hall I painted last week. The repaint and the factory weathered job are seen here ... A tip....I attach a drill holder to the motor shaft to turn the wheels during spraying. They were sprayed a brownish grey... Of note is the better proportioned lining on the boiler bands.... All 'weathering' was done in brown on the whole smokebox, along the running plate, underside of boiler, top of boiler and firebox, Tender chassis and top plus some parts sides and rear. The tender chassis and wheels were oversprayed in matt black in places to kill a surfeit of brown.... Seen near Carrog.... PS: Yes, I noticed the crosshead was out of the slidebars after the photos were taken. It is impossible to retake them in the present high winds. Edited October 16, 2017 by coachmann 19 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted October 16, 2017 Author Share Posted October 16, 2017 (edited) The Hughes-Fowler 'Crab' is now in service with sound following a CV-session this afternoon. The weathering was done ages ago. As part of a BR initiative, this loco will work a colliery train moving coal from the Wrexham area to Ruthin, Denbigh and Rhyl. Locos working the Corwen - Ruthin line always face Corwen... It was one of those red sun days when the remains of a tornado Hurricane from the USA was passing over Wales and must have been a talking point for driver and fireman Jones.... Simmering in Carrog while waiting to pass a local passenger train.... Edited October 16, 2017 by coachmann 19 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Focalplane Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 It was one of those red sun days when the remains of a tornado from the USA was passing over Wales. . . Larry In my experience of both tornados and hurricanes, I have to correct you on the above. Tornados are very local, hurricanes can cross oceans. But you are not that far from Birmingham! The crab looks very nice, one of my favourites on the LMS. Paul 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted October 16, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 16, 2017 Ooh look at all those loo brush trees on the marsh..... They may look like loo brushes from a distance, but when you get close up, they look like hair brushes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold trw1089 Posted October 16, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 16, 2017 (edited) Love the Crab Larry, but even those Halls and Granges look very pleasant to a non-GWR person such as myself. The discussion regarding sound CVs is something that is holding a lot of my attention at the moment after doing a lot of fiddling with the Locoman Black 5. I must admit that the Zimo decoders are far superior for fiddling compared to Loksound, but I enjoy the challenge of both. Maybe we should start a thread in DCC Sound to discuss our findings? Cheers Tony Edited October 16, 2017 by trw1089 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted October 16, 2017 Author Share Posted October 16, 2017 (edited) Love the Crab Larry, but even those Halls and Granges look very pleasant to a non-GWR person such as myself. The discussion regarding sound CVs is something that is holding a lot of my attention at the moment after doing a lot of fiddling with the Locoman Black 5. I must admit that the Zimo decoders are far superior for fiddling compared to Loksound, but I enjoy the challenge of both. Maybe we should start a thread in DCC Sound to discuss our findings? Cheers Tony Thanks. It's an idea although I deliberately keep all my posts on one thread now instead of having a thread for this and another for that. Sound is indeed a challenge and WTF is a regular expletive when something happens I wasn't expecting! Have you sorted out the Black Five to your satisfaction? This soundfile is on my mind seeing as I want something for an Ivatt Cl.2 2-6-0. Edited October 16, 2017 by coachmann Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kandc_au Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 Coach, Thanks for the explanation of your weathering! Looks superb! khris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold trw1089 Posted October 17, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 17, 2017 Thanks. It's an idea although I deliberately keep all my posts on one thread now instead of having a thread for this and another for that. Sound is indeed a challenge and WTF is a regular expletive when something happens I wasn't expecting! Have you sorted out the Black Five to your satisfaction? This soundfile is on my mind seeing as I want something for an Ivatt Cl.2 2-6-0. Yes, the WTF expletive is uttered a number of times when manipulating CVs. The Black 5 is going well, I should have another video of it and the A3 uploaded tonight or tomorrow. I would like to understand more around the motor drive and back EMF CVs though as the A3 is buzzing a little now using Loksound. The Zimo ones I think I am across but the Loksound ones still have me a little stumped. As for chuff synchronisation, this is highly dependent on motor characteristics and how you might play with momentum and motor drive CVs. One of the first things I do now is to adjust those to what I want, then recalibrate the chuff timing. Both Loksound and Zimo have excellent synchronisation now, so as a couple of people mentioned, if chuff timing is out, you can adjust it to be just about perfect. It does require some fiddling, and I think the Loksound method is slightly superior, but both work very well. Cheers Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted October 17, 2017 Author Share Posted October 17, 2017 (edited) I have found the chuff rate can be the very devil to set occasionally, and the LMS Crab really had me going yesterday! I had settled on CV267=71 when I noticed it was way-out when running at a gradely trot. It can never be set to suit all speeds without a cam, and so I optimize it to suit the slow speeds used on the indoor scenic section of my layout. However, after getting nowhere hovering below and above the 70 mark and with patience running thin, I set a value of 66 and Eureka! I hope to make a video today, as it makes some interesting noises. I look forward to hearing your latest Black Five video. Edited October 17, 2017 by coachmann 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kylestrome Posted October 17, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 17, 2017 All this talk about chuff synchronisation prompts me to want to ask a question which is going to make seem like an idiot, but I shall ask it nevertheless. How many chuffs per wheel revolution should there be, in relation to the number of cylinders? TIA, David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Rowsley17D Posted October 17, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 17, 2017 As a rule of thumb, 2 cylinder locos have 4 exhaust beats (chuffs) per revolution, 3 cylinder have 6. 4 cylinder (Princesses, Duchesses, Kings etc.) have 4 beats as the inside cylinders exhaust at the same time as the outside. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted October 17, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 17, 2017 (edited) What Rowsley said, as on a 2 cylinder loco there is an exhaust 'pulse' from each cylinder to the chimney every half revolution of the driving wheel and the driving wheels are quartered with the cranks offset by 90 degrees (so that at least one piston is is a position to start the loco at all times). The even-ness of the chuffs is a good overall guide to the loco's general condition, and valve setting problems with Gresley's conjugated valve gear on 3 cylinder locos led to some wonderful noises when they'd run a few miles! All but the very earliest locomotives have at least 2 cylinders to ensure starting, and 3 or 4 cylinder engines are designed to provide a more even delivery of power to the driven axle or axles, minimising big end wear and restricting hammer blow; they generally provide a superior ride quality as a result, the downside being that they require more preparation time and drivers have to lubricate motion in restricted spaces between the frames, which accounts for the extensive vocabulary of expletives that most drivers are able to deploy in such situations. Obviously articulated and duplex locos are a different sort of beast, particularly where all the cylinders exhaust through one chimney, and another exception is the Southern Railway's 'Lord Nelson' class, which is a 4 cylinder loco with the cranks offset to provide 8 chuffs per revolution. Sad sack that I am, and being something of a Luddite when it comes to DCC, I just make chuff chuff noises as my locos move about the layout... Edited October 17, 2017 by The Johnster 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Focalplane Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 Yes, as a rule! One exception we have discussed before is the 3 cylinder Compound which sounds like a two cylinder loco as the single high pressure cylinder is essentially silent and the lower pressure cylinders are cranked at 90°. So, 4 beats per revolution. More interesting is the two engine design. I have an SP Cab Forward AC4 class 4-8-8-2 in HO gauge. This came equipped with sound and the two engines are treated independently with one decoder. Fascinating how they go in and out of sync. It is said that the two become synchronised at speed due to back pressure or something but I don't know if this is fact or fiction. The early SP articulated locos were built as compounds but later modified to simples, so even there we have more than one rule! But returning to Carrog. . . . 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Rowsley17D Posted October 17, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 17, 2017 (edited) Yes, as a rule! One exception we have discussed before is the 3 cylinder Compound which sounds like a two cylinder loco as the single high pressure cylinder is essentially silent and the lower pressure cylinders are cranked at 90°. So, 4 beats per revolution. But returning to Carrog. . . . Yes, I ought to have mentioned this as I have a "sound" LMS Compound, although one supplier has an LMS Compound decoder with 6 beats per revolution which you cannot get rid of by altering CVs. Ask me how I know!! Anyway back to Larry.... Edited October 17, 2017 by Rowsley17D 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Barry O Posted October 17, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 17, 2017 Thanks. It's an idea although I deliberately keep all my posts on one thread now instead of having a thread for this and another for that. Sound is indeed a challenge and WTF is a regular expletive when something happens I wasn't expecting! Have you sorted out the Black Five to your satisfaction? This soundfile is on my mind seeing as I want something for an Ivatt Cl.2 2-6-0. Larry by using a SPROG and a computer to set CVs you retain the CVs for use on a similar loco.... no more mucking around with handsets for me - it takes too long! It also means I can re-apply the CVs when I get a loco back which has had a slight dcc mishap ( especially when using NCE and hitting the wrong buttons). Baz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium New Haven Neil Posted October 17, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 17, 2017 Another vote here for SPROG - a great device, and easy to use. Mine did have a thromby but Andrew Crossland sorted it with no problems. Both recommended. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted October 17, 2017 Author Share Posted October 17, 2017 PGH came around this afternoon so he grabbed the camera while I worked the train. The Hughes 'Crab' was on trial but very soon began to jump about like a dogs hind leg with St.Vitus. The chassis was bone dry (the wheels had been lathe turned some years ago), so oil did the trick... 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Focalplane Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 Excellent sounds, the whistle has character! And the chuff rate is where it should be at the slower range of speed, spot on! Thank you for sharing! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted October 17, 2017 Author Share Posted October 17, 2017 (edited) I have uploaded this for comparison with the above video, as it uses the F'key#5 clanking when coasting. The exhaust on this key is also quieter so i use it when starting off with a load for just four initial chuffs before cancelling it and returning to full exhaust for pulling away. Once the loco is on the move the 'secondary' exhaust comes in automatically. After that there is the option of F'key#5 quiet exhaust. F'key#2 has the active brake. It is all set up with the CV's... Edited October 17, 2017 by coachmann 10 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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