ENHANCED UK PRODUCTION

[Revolution Ben]

Ben

 

If this is the prevalent attitude to all British manufactured goods then it is time to "throw in the towel" and give up!

 

Measuring todays expectations by the past products of the same company that in reality is only a Brand Name, Skills that were not present in China twenty years ago plus the technology has moved on too!

 

Watch & wait and if unhappy just follow the free market and do not buy!

 

Mark Saunders

Hi Mark,

 

I am not throwing in the towel but expressing my considered view. I look forward to being proved wrong, but while I certainly wish Dapo well, an injection moulding machine does one thing - it injection moulds.

 

So yes, Dapol can begin moulding simple things like containers here, and maybe painting and printing them in the UK too as they have tampo machines at Chirk, but I am sceptical that highly detailed rolling stock, or powered models (to the levels of quality expected at a price customers here are willing to pay) are achievable at this time.

 

Cheers

 

Ben A.

Edited April 27, 2017 by Ben A

[DCB]

It makes an awful lot of sense for companies selling predominantly to the UK market to manufacture their own product in the UK rather than outsourcing to companies the other side of the world.  The ability to make items "to order" rather than have bast inventories stuck in a container has to make economic sense in an era where poor estimation of likely sales lead to fleets of unlikely locos like Adams Radials waiting forlornly on dusty shelves in model shops from Camborn to Wick, and sets of coaches sitting idle waiting for the day when Mr Lu can be bothered to make the Brake/ Restaurant / Kitchen Car/ TGS/ DVT what ever needed to complete the set.

I admire Dapol's engineering in N gauge and don't know what I would do without their ex Airfix kits and trackside figures so I wish them every success with this UK manufacturing initiative.

[Loconuts]

Hi Mark,

 

I am not throwing in the towel but expressing my considered view. I look forward to being proved wrong, but while I certainly wish Dapol an injection moulding machine does one thing - it injection moulds.

 

So yes, Dapol can begin moulding simple things like containers here, and maybe painting and printing them in the UK too as they have tampo machines at Chirk, but I am sceptical that highly detailed rolling stock, or powered models (to the levels of quality expected at a price customers here are willing to pay) are achievable at this time.

 

Cheers

 

Ben A.

 

It seems to me that many people have forgotten that Richard Webster is working with Dapol and he has years of experience in the Model Railway manufacturing including spending time at Bachmann and Lionel. I know from the late Lee Riley of Bachmann that Richard was their man in China and between the two of them they were instrumental in setting up the 0n30 range.

 

If we take the successful range of 0 gauge highly detailed models produced by Slaters, they are only two steps away from producing RTR models, assembly and finishing.

 

Dapol have a plan, you do not invest that sort of money without working out the financial benefits to the company. Only they know the plan and we will have to wait with baited breath as to what that plan is.  

[Guest]

I thought that 'we' threw in the towel in many areas of manufacturing a long time ago.  And of course when you don't have the skills (and in the case of modern highly detailed railway models have never had them at mass market levels) you face a very steep and expensive learning curve while looking to a customer base to support you.  Somehow I don't think most modern customer bases have that sort of patience, let alone the necessary price/value insensitivity which would probably be essential.

 

Whilst I support the move (however small) to return to a UK manufacturing base for UK-specific products, patience is something that I know a lot of RMWebbers are short of. You really would think that they were waiting for a motorcycle courier to deliver a life-saving supply of blood, not a hobby item. I'm not talking about the wait between product announcement and availability (which an awful lot of folk complain about anyway), but rather the wait between shipping from China and arrival at his/hers favourite stockist.

I'm fairly sure that a year or so ago, someone got wind of which ship a long-awaited consignment was being sent on, and one member tracked that ship by GPS all the way from China to Felixstowe, publishing twice-daily updates! There was a further delay at Felixstowe, resulting in increased blood pressure, no doubt. Good grief...

[Roy Langridge]

I'm fairly sure that a year or so ago, someone got wind of which ship a long-awaited consignment was being sent on, and one member tracked that ship by GPS all the way from China to Felixstowe, publishing twice-daily updates! There was a further delay at Felixstowe, resulting in increased blood pressure, no doubt. Good grief...

 

I think you may be confusing impatience and excitement.

 

Roy

Edited April 27, 2017 by Roy Langridge

[Guest]

I think you may be confusing impatience and excitement.

 

I would like to think so, but in the case I remember, no.

[Mark Saunders]

I detect short memories again!

 

Where did Bachmann start, the Mainline moulds and look where 20 years has got it and they have always been Hong Kong/China based production!

 

Lima continental knocked spots off the contemporary production at the same time!

 

Dapol are not new starters in this game!

 

Mark

[mikeharvey22]

For anyone hoping to make a career in mould making for Dapol's new machine, this Oxford Diecast blog item for 22 April 2017 covers some of the competing issues for relatively simple vehicles.

 

https://www.oxforddiecast.co.uk/blogs/news

 

Just to add to the excitement a firm in Telford, not a million miles from Chirk, has just taken delivery of a new aluminium die-casting machine.

 

https://twitter.com/bbcmtd/status/856529748469710851

[jjb1970]

This may be a small step but it is nevertheless a positive step to UK production and who knows, it may lead to more complex manufacturing at Chirk.

[Tricky-CRS]

Hi Mark,

I am not throwing in the towel but expressing my considered view. I look forward to being proved wrong, but while I certainly wish Dapo well, an injection moulding machine does one thing - it injection moulds.

So yes, Dapol can begin moulding simple things like containers here, and maybe painting and printing them in the UK too as they have tampo machines at Chirk, but I am sceptical that highly detailed rolling stock, or powered models (to the levels of quality expected at a price customers here are willing to pay) are achievable at this time.

Cheerse

Ben A.

But Ben the dogfish and that generation of Dapol N Gauge were and probably still are manufactured at Chirk. The N Gauge Collette went to China only a few years ago to do a limited edition run, a few other tools may also have gone out. Dapol to the best of my knowledge have been moulding, painting, printing, assembling and packaging many products in various scales for over 10years. This just an upgrade of what they already do, which may increase speed, quality or other options.

[Osgood]

…... Dapol to the best of my knowledge have been moulding, painting, printing, assembling and packaging many products in various scales for over 10years. …...

 

From a bit more than 10 years ago:

 

Edited May 6, 2017 by Osgood

[jamie92208]

From a bit more than 10 years ago:

 

Dapol.jpg

 

I remember touring the factory whilst on a canal trip and my kids were in their early teens.  That's 20 years ago.

 

Jamie

[Chris M]

I know it's been done before and Dapol still do it to a degree but I would like to see more kits. If I could buy say pre painted N gauge Collet coaches or milk tanks or whatever with parts moulded in the UK that just needed to be assembled by me I would be very happy indeed.

 

I can see loco kits would be harder as the chassis are quite complex and fiddly but I would be interested. They could try this with something like a 14xx as an experiment. One great thing about putting a kit of parts together is that you would know how to take it apart should maintenance be required. Another good thing is the owner would feel a sense of pride at having assembled it.

 

If a N gauge kit of parts for an existing Dapol product came on sale I would almost certainly buy one. To me this is at least a potential part of the answer to expensive assembly costs in the U.K.

[arran]

There appears to be a degree of misunderstanding on this thread about the volume of work required to make an rtr anything, and whilst there is no doubt that the manufacturing skills exist in the UK (injection moulded medical supplies etc.), It's the labour cost that makes it commercially unviable to assemble,paint, tampo,and test anything in Europe,no less the UK alone.

 

If you were to use a Dapol ventilated van as example,it retails for about a tenner. That retailer is most likely looking for 50% margin, hence its a fiver that the commissioner is charging. He then is buying it for about £2.50 from China. This does not include the tooling cost either. If the tooling for something like the van is around £5000, then the larger the number produced,the less it impinges on profit.

 

So a run of 10,000 units makes commercial sense.

 

Taking all that into account, it cannot be possible to pay staff even the basic industrial wage to assemble,paint,tampo (highly skilled human process), QC, package, box, and ship, whilst making a profit.

 

Most likely commercial argument,is that the new plant will be used to produce items which do not involve many human procesess, hence kits.

 

R.

 

5K To tool a van !!!!!!!!!

 

what planet are you on.

 

Regards Arran

[Free At Last]

Where are the RTR Dapol Stanier coaches assembled that are sold in Hattons (not checked other shops) for £12.00?

[arran]

Planet experience Arran. It's not about the actual figure here, I'm just trying to explain the numbers.

 

helps if you know the starting point, for a van Inc chassis x that by 3 and you might get closer

[jjb1970]

If it was not viable to manufacture complex models in Europe then presumably companies like Roco and ViTrains couldn't manufacture in Europe. However they do manufacture in Europe.

[Davexoc]

helps if you know the starting point, for a van Inc chassis x that by 3 and you might get closer

Not injection moulding, but my employer has just increased production of a blow moulded container.

At over £12,000 per mould (existing design means that doesn't include any development costs), it means just to pay for the mould, we have to sell over 275,000 mouldings.

Now that doesn't include the cost of the raw materials or the power required to produce them.

Raw material costs are around £1200 per tonne for larger consumers.

As a smaller moulder our annual electricity bill is well into 7 figures.

People need to realise that tooling up to produce a couple of thousand models is not cheap, and the more components that are required to produce said model, the higher the end price. You can buy cheaper tooling using inferior materials, but that isn't going to save huge amounts of cash.

 

Dave

[Free At Last]

 Less than 5 minutes work to assemble.

It takes me longer than that to put the vents on the roof, I would be no good on the assembly line.

[John M Upton]

As an aside, why is the title of this thread in block capitals?  It is really bugging me....

[jjb1970]

Romania and Slovenia. Hardly comparable cost of living and wages with the UK. Average monthly salary in Romania is £509.18. The market in Europe is multiples of what the UK is, and some of their sound and video locos are north of £400. I doubt a similar unit produced in Chirk without all the extras, north of £200 would be palatable to the customer. Is a "Made in Great Britain" stamp on the underside of any rtr item worth the inevitable additional cost, to what can be done in China? But shur what do I know, I've only had 2 rtr items made in China... R

 

You specifically referenced Europe earlier. Romania and Slovenia are in Europe. Also, ViTrains manufacture in Italy which is not a low cost East European country. Not all European markets are bigger (or even as big as) than the UK. Italy has a thriving model railway scene but model runs do not appear to be any higher than here. The typical run of LE Models seems to be <500 units per release. You may also be surprised at the price differentials, the idea of OO being a bargain basement alternative to European HO is no longer especially true.

[andyman7]

Where are the RTR Dapol Stanier coaches assembled that are sold in Hattons (not checked other shops) for £12.00?

 

 

I've built a few of the kits, and I'm sure that the information said that they were made and painted in Wales. The kits just snap together. Floor, body (all 4 sides in one moulding) roof and glazing. Bogies just need the wheels and couplings inserting then a retainer pin to attach the bogies to the chassis. Less than 5 minutes work to assemble.

The irony is of course that when first tooled in the 1980s the Stanier coaches now made in Wales by Dapol were manufactured in Hong Kong!

[Robert Shrives]

Hi ,

New machine reported as in and being commissioned over next few days. so the fun begins ! The ladies and gents in Chirk are hardworking and proud of work done -as seen on club opendays so hopefully this will up the ante on amount and quality produced.

 

As noted labour costs will for a while in China lag behind but now transport and leadtimes can be reduced with economic benefit and with UK tooling being as good as China - its down to how made and on what machines thesedays over pure manual skill. The growth of O gauge RTR can only be aided by such investment.  The rate at which stock was moving at Reading from the Dapol stand shows the products are popular.

 

Quite right about scanning - a good way of checking 3D print CAD work based on works drawings and photos and until software grows a bit not a one button push creating system. 

 

FWIW  the Growth of Peco O range with shorter turnouts for micro layouts seemed to be a driver for many at Reading Yesterday - perhaps for starters and second in house plank Quickie... The Terrier and 08 make for a mini accessible for all range and the short wheelbase vans/ wagons seems the way to go - new brakevan to finish perhaps a UK product of the near future?   .

 

Robert      

[Guest]

Do folk actually think you press a big red button that says "class 73" and it gets made?

 

That's quite possibly the most patronising thing I've read on RMWeb in a long time.

[Osgood]

As an aside, why is the title of this thread in block capitals?  It is really bugging me....

 

 

Perhaps a form of enhancement?