For those interested in old buses (and coaches)

[PhilJ W]

54 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

That was less than a decade after they allowed windscreens. The most odd ban for several reasons was the ban on platform doors even on front entrance buses. Even the first central RF's were placed in service without platform doors.

That was also given as one of the reasons for London Transports not taking up the advanced side engined Q double deckers. The platform ahead of the front wheels would be even more dangerous giving the Londoners habit of jumping on and off a moving bus. 

[Enterprisingwestern]

4 hours ago, John M Upton said:

London bus blinds are a bit of an anathema.  The proper full three part blinds with all intermediate points shown were perfect, the move to single line ultimate destination in the last ten years or so being a major retrograde step but probably a cost saving measure as the London style blind box probably had to be specially built whereas the current version is standard across the country effectively. (You also had the problem that an ex London bus sent out to pasture in the provinces would often incur the expense of converting the London blind layout back to provincial again)

 

Quite why however London still insists on physical blinds too whereas the rest of the world has moved on to electronic display continues to baffle me. Okay, the earlier examples of the electronic type were notoriously unreliable but now the technology has improved immensely.

 

Perhaps retained for customer benefits, the number of intermediate points displayed on roller blinds would need quite a sized screen to display all at once, and a scrolling 1 or 2 line screen would be fairly useless in this situation?

 

Mike.

[Gwiwer]

2 hours ago, Mike_Walker said:

I've been told by "them wot knows" (or claim to) within the industry that reduction in London to ultimate destination only is to comply with the disability legislation which also, apparently, requires the route number to be on the nearside.  Also, they retain proper blinds because that's what the carriage office requires but they are at least powered on the latest vehicles.

Various reasons have been advanced for the change to ultimate-only destinations in London which many regard as a wholly retrograde step.

 

Yes it is connected with disability legislation however that does not preclude the display of intermediate points.  The lettering must be of a size and style, and in a contrasting colour against the background, such that it can be read by persons with vision impairments to a specified extent. That allows for such disabilities to manifest in many ways and to a unique extent for each individual.  It's much the same as having doors and grab-poles in a contrasting colour.  

 

However it is also connected with campaigns to remove potentially confusing information.  A bus displaying points A, B, C, D, E and F on an "intermediate point" blind whilst bound for destination G will pass those points along the way.  TfL in its wisdom decided that it is confusing to some people once the bus has passed certain points to still show them and it is impractical to re-set the blinds as the bus proceeds along its journey.  I know some operators used to do this; Southdown and East Kent were among those with the conductor re-setting the intermediate-point blind on longer or circular routes as required.  We no longer have conductors.  It is potentially distracting and arguably and unnecessary burden upon the driver to re-set blinds at designated locations.  It could be done by remote control now that iBus precisely locates where each vehicle is and powers the audio announcements which are also a requirement of disability legislation.  But it isn't.  Because?  Because TfL, basically.  

 

The upshot is that there are plenty of instances where two routes operate between points J and K one of them directly and relatively quickly and the other indirectly and taking far longer.  Unless one checks the route number and knows whether the 110 or 111 is the shorter route there is as much chance of ending up on a sinuous tour of unimpressive suburban housing as there ever was of catching the bus "the wrong way" because it still displayed A, B, C, D, E and F but had passed your intended destination earlier on its journey.  

 

London continues to use roller-blinds because they are more easily visible at a distance and do not flicker as even the best electronic ones do.  I have no sight impairment beyond corrective lenses but cannot clearly read an electronic display at 100 metres; I can easily read a printed screen at that and greater distance.  The most recent deliveries of a few types are now using recently-authorised electronic displays such as the electrics now entering service on the 65 and 290 from Fulwell garage.  The displays are eye-searingly bright but not easily read until the bus is almost at the stop.  

[PhilJ W]

28 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

London continues to use roller-blinds because they are more easily visible at a distance and do not flicker as even the best electronic ones do.  I have no sight impairment beyond corrective lenses but cannot clearly read an electronic display at 100 metres; I can easily read a printed screen at that and greater distance.  The most recent deliveries of a few types are now using recently-authorised electronic displays such as the electrics now entering service on the 65 and 290 from Fullwell garage.  The displays are eye-searingly bright but not easily read until the bus is almost at the stop.  

But with the bus stop displays is it really necessary to read the bus destination at a distance? In some instances such as several high frequency routes using the same stop/road it maybe necessary but in most cases as long as the route number is displayed the information is there even before the bus is in view.

[leopardml2341]

All of this is not helped by schools not teaching journey planning by public transport anymore.

A useful activity in many respects, maths, geography and comprehension to name but three.

[laurenceb]

3 hours ago, Mike_Walker said:

I've been told by "them wot knows" (or claim to) within the industry that reduction in London to ultimate destination only is to comply with the disability legislation which also, apparently, requires the route number to be on the nearside.  Also, they retain proper blinds because that's what the carriage office requires but they are at least powered on the latest vehicles.

The position of the route number is a DiPTAC advisory not legislation. Trentbarton who don't use route numbers for most services alternate between route name and destination with the information centred.

[Gwiwer]

51 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

But with the bus stop displays is it really necessary to read the bus destination at a distance? In some instances such as several high frequency routes using the same stop/road it maybe necessary but in most cases as long as the route number is displayed the information is there even before the bus is in view.

Those displays in the shelters are unreliable.  They are of necessity a "best estimate" of when the next bus will arrive derived from the timetable, real-time running information, current traffic conditions and recent running information.  At busy stops it is a lottery as to which will arrive first when several buses are expected in the next few minutes.  At those with fewer routes the timings can be out due to factors beyond the ability of the back-end software to control such as pedestrian operation of traffic lights which can cause delays of several minutes when a cycle is missed.  

 

The panels on the actual bus stops are quite small and whilst they do contain enough information for most people most of the time to get the correct bus it isn't always easy to locate and understand.  Not all routes have timetables / route plans displayed at all stops either.  

 

Factor in that some buses are still "turned" as in directed by the controller to turn back short of destination and even iBus can be thrown.  There should be an on-board announcement that "The destination of this bus has changed and will now be ....... " which is controlled by the driver reprogramming the system after receiving instruction to do so but the shelter displays will still show the timetabled information.  Thus a 281 which should go to Tolworth will be shown as such as the countdown system operates and the bus makes its way towards you.  But if it has been turned (usually because of late running or staffing issues) in Kingston which is quite some way short of Tolworth then the bus will display Kingston while the stop still displays Tolworth.  It's not perfect.  But it is better than many other operators manage.  It is always advisable to check the front of the bus.  

[leopardml2341]

4 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

Those displays in the shelters are unreliable.  

Tell me about it.

 

A recent visit to Coventry exemplified that statement to the extreme, none of the following agreed with eachother. Routes between Coventry and Bedworth Sunday evening  approx 20:00:

• Next bus display 
• Printed timetable at stop
• Downloaded timetable
• Actual departures 

Bus services provided by Stagecoach and NX Bus, timetabling co-ordination (?) by Transport for West Midlands; is there any wonder why people default to Uber?

[laurenceb]

Locally information on services to and from Derby has disappeared from realtime displays presumably because transponders in Burton are not compatible with those in Derby

[RANGERS]

6 hours ago, laurenceb said:

The position of the route number is a DiPTAC advisory not legislation. Trentbarton who don't use route numbers for most services alternate between route name and destination with the information centred.

Not strictly correct, provision for route numbering is a requirement under the Passenger Service Vehicle Accessibility Regulations 2000. It has to be provided to the front, near side and rear of the vehicle.

Whilst all routes have to be clearly identifiable and correspond with that declared in the local bus service registration when it’s lodged with the Office of the Traffic Commissioner, this doesn’t have to be a number, though virtually all are. So a route which isn’t numbered still has to be operated by a vehicle capable of displaying a number!

 

As regards the location of the route number to the front, as you say, DPTAC recommendation is that it is located towards the kerbside of the vehicle and PSVAR mandates it’s as close as practicable to the section of windscreen within the drivers field of vision, in reality as close as possible to the top edge of the screen and so as low down as is practical.

 

 

[Gwiwer]

51 minutes ago, RANGERS said:

Whilst all routes have to be clearly identifiable and correspond with that declared in the local bus service registration when it’s lodged with the Office of the Traffic Commissioner, this doesn’t have to be a number, though virtually all are. So a route which isn’t numbered still has to be operated by a vehicle capable of displaying a number!

A recent trend has been for a few operators to use brand names and not route numbers at least so far as the public is concerned.  Trent Barton led the way.   In recent years First Kernow has almost eliminated route numbers in Cornwall replacing (or supplementing) them with names.   The former 1, 15 and 17A first became 1 and 300 then A1, A2 and A3 but are now branded Lands End Coaster having also worn the Atlantic Coaster brand briefly.  No route numbers are displayed anywhere.  More recently the Mousehole bus, formerly plain 6 and then M6 has become The Mousehole officially without a number though some vehicles were still showing M6 in October when I was last in the area.   

 

[PhilJ W]

Locally First Bus Essex had route branded some of its buses with the route number actually applying vinyl's to the vehicles. Most if not all have now been removed.

[ColinK]

A usefull way of knowing where your bus actually is the website bustimes.org

 

It’s run by amateurs, maybe thats why it works!

[John M Upton]

Locally, Stagecoach South (Southdown as was) have gone for route names and numbers.  In Chichester you have route branded buses for:

 

Selsey 51

Witterings 52/53

Tangmere 55

South Downs Connection 60

Coastliner 700 (the latter now largely the corporate long distance yellow/orange with discreet route branding.)

 

However, the ability by Chichester Depot to keep the correctly branded buses on the correct route is pretty woeful.  Coastliner 700's winding up in Selsey being not uncommon for example.

 

However as the new Stagecoach corporate livery (which in my opinion is hideous!) spreads out, the route brandings are being dropped with the exception of the 700.

 

In Worthing there is a route called The Pulse which as far as I am aware has no number or at least none displayed, I think this may well go when Worthing Depot get around to having their allocation resprayed, they seem to be well behind the other depots in Stagecoach South for some reason.

Edited December 25, 2021 by John M Upton

[leopardml2341]

1 hour ago, John M Upton said:

 

However, the ability by Chichester Depot to keep the correctly branded buses on the correct route is pretty woeful.  Coastliner 700's winding up in Selsey being not uncommon for example.

At one time the traffic commissioner would have taken a dim view of that.  Not sure if they still do?

[John M Upton]

I think as long as the screen shows the correct route/destination, whatever number and branding on the side on whatever colour they are painted in doesn't matter.

 

Still confuses the little old ladies though..

[Dunsignalling]

18 minutes ago, John M Upton said:

I think as long as the screen shows the correct route/destination, whatever number and branding on the side on whatever colour they are painted in doesn't matter.

 

Still confuses the little old ladies though..

Just as well. A few weeks ago I spotted one of Stagecoach's Exeter (Honiton Road) Park and Ride buses on the route to Seaton!

 

John

[laurenceb]

Trent are normally pretty good at keeping buses on the proper routes, - people still ask if this is the Derby bus!

[Rugd1022]

[Rugd1022]

 

 

 

 

 

[Mike_Walker]

49 minutes ago, Rugd1022 said:

 

 

The winter of 1962/63 presumably...

[Gwiwer]

2 hours ago, Mike_Walker said:

The winter of 1962/63 presumably...

Hextable iirc.  That's a well-circulated image. 

[pH]

4 hours ago, Rugd1022 said:

 

 

What’s the story behind this? Unusual pattern of damage. With what looks like a permanent ‘Private’ on the board and so many staff around, has someone just failed driver training?

[figworthy]

39 minutes ago, pH said:

What’s the story behind this? Unusual pattern of damage. With what looks like a permanent ‘Private’ on the board and so many staff around, has someone just failed driver training?

 

At least two of those look like police officers to me (one appears to have sergeant's stripes on his sleeve).

 

Adrian

[5 C]

1 hour ago, pH said:

What’s the story behind this? Unusual pattern of damage. With what looks like a permanent ‘Private’ on the board and so many staff around, has someone just failed driver training?

I would say there's at least four police officers there. The only bus staff are the driver (just about discernible behind the shattered windscreen) and the two men in great coats.

 

I wonder if the pile of debris by the bridge parapet has anything to do with it? As @pH says, a very unusual pattern of damage. Both front mudguards and the nearside upper deck have been hit but the radiator appears undamaged. Was a temporary radiator fitted to enable it to be moved or did the bus rear end two other vehicles?