More 3D - adding something new every week

[Annie]

All of the info in either GA or Diagram form is out there for those 4.  Also Ken Hoole would not be my first point of reference. 

 

Re- the point about people not making kits. The body is the easiest part of these to do, what are you going to suggest for the undergubbins, W irons and floating centre axle ?

 

Why not add a floor ?

Speak for yourself.  Some of us can't do this kind of modelling from kits, - in my case it's because of illness, - but I'm sure that there are plenty of other reasons why some folk find kits a challenge.

[rue_d_etropal]

 

Speak for yourself.  Some of us can't do this kind of modelling from kits, - in my case it's because of illness, - but I'm sure that there are plenty of other reasons why some folk find kits a challenge.

Absolutely agree. Trouble with some in the hobby is that they can not see it from anyone else's perspective. Comments like, what stops someone being able to do something is not spending enough time practicing. Not everyone has every skill, otherwise we would all be brain surgeons! I can't solder so any brass kit is off limits.

I have been doing this 3D design work for 5 years, and have a lot of good feed back. I also actually talk to people at exhibitions, have exhibited at exhibitions, ran a model railway shop and had articles published.

 

For anything NER(and that should include ECJS), then Ken Hoole is the best starting point.The only other book I have seen actually says it only covers stock from 1905, so don't think that would help.  I also have a full set of the printed coach diagrams produced by the NER society. just wish other ralway societies would do something similar. I have searched online for info, and in answer to anyone who says it is somewhere, show me exactly where it is. Far too many critisise, when they should actually could help. I am working with one society(which I now belong to), and we all work together. As much of what we are looking for no longer exists, we usually end up with a good comproise. Better something than nothing.

[CarriageShed]

...Trouble with some in the hobby is that they can not see it from anyone else's perspective. Comments like, what stops someone being able to do something is not spending enough time practising. Not everyone has every skill, otherwise we would all be brain surgeons!

 

 

Tongue firmly in cheek, of course...

[rue_d_etropal]

Just being looking at GNR society website, and I think they have drawings. i have contacted them for details. The Lav 1st(I think same as what NER reclassified as lav 3rd), and all 3rds look like what I have already, but I want to be certain. The composite, i am not sure about, so need drawings. Found that  thread on the LNER forum, with drawing showing how train was composed. Interesting that the brakes are shorter . I will need to check. Also need to check widths as those in my books are of different widths.

My aim was not to necessarily create an exact replica train, but something most would find suitable to run behind what is rather a mixed up Stirling Single, which I don't think is same as it was in 1938(something to do with the tender?).

 

Main reason I am concentrating on coaches, have said it before, is the most r2r manufacturers are concentrating on locos, and there is very little pre-grouping stock for them to pull, apart frome complex kits to build. Just trying to help everyone enjoy the hobby more. R2r is OK, and is bringing some superb models to the hobby, but all too easy for it to move hobby away from building models and being creative. 3D printing might not be perfect, but it is a good stop gap for now, and for those who want models now rather than having to wait 4 years.

[chris p bacon]

Will the Brassmasters Cleminson kit do for these?

 

Not really, they don't have the width on the under frame to be able to 'swing', better to have 2 sprung W irons and a floating centre axle.

 

 

Speak for yourself.  Some of us can't do this kind of modelling from kits, - in my case it's because of illness, - but I'm sure that there are plenty of other reasons why some folk find kits a challenge.

 

Compared to building 4 sides of a body into a coach, an underframe for a 6 wheeler is far more difficult

 Trouble with some in the hobby is that they can not see it from anyone else's perspective.

 

That cuts both ways, I just suggested that the body was the easy part and asked what the suggested underframe was going to be.

 

Just being looking at GNR society website, and I think they have drawings. i have contacted them for details. The Lav 1st(I think same as what NER reclassified as lav 3rd), and all 3rds look like what I have already, but I want to be certain. The composite, i am not sure about, so need drawings. Found that  thread on the LNER forum, with drawing showing how train was composed. Interesting that the brakes are shorter . I will need to check. Also need to check widths as those in my books are of different widths.

My aim was not to necessarily create an exact replica train, but something most would find suitable to run behind what is rather a mixed up Stirling Single, which I don't think is same as it was in 1938(something to do with the tender?).

 

 

The society has diagrams and documentation which are available to purchase by anyone at non member rates.  

 

Contact the sales and publications officer at the email listed on this page.  https://www.gnrsociety.com/publications-list/

[JCL]

Hi Simon

 

It looks like I am going to agree with Dave here. The building of the body will be the easy bit, as you are effectively building a simple box.

 

Having studied those prototype coach drawings and photos for the last year or so, and having followed Mike Trice's thread about his Shapeways 3D printed 1938 set, it is the stuff under the underframe area that is going to be the most difficult bit to do by far. Mike's thread has a number of posts in it where he has had to go back to the drawing board and redo his prototypes because a scheme hasn't worked sufficiently well.

 

I've a few bodies that I drew up and made from card and MDF some time ago which are stalled at the moment while I gird my loins and take on everything below the waist. Unfortunately I can't see how the chassis can be done without stryene and/or brass and a fair degree of cussing.

 

As you say, you are certainly free to design any bodies you wish to, and I hope that they turn out to be marvelous. I think it's laudable that you are making bodyshells so that people that don't want to put a kit together, or can't put a kit together have another option. I know you've only just started looking into this, but if ease of use is your watchword, does this mean that you could have a solution to the 6 wheel chassis issues?

 

cheers

 

Jason

Edited August 9, 2018 by JCL

[rue_d_etropal]

Not sure why some are making such a drama out of this. All I initialy wanted was info( I eventually found the bit on the LNER forum), but I only had the ECJS book and the drawings from the NER society. I have now tracked down the drawings available(some currently not available I think because they are being revised) by the GNR society.

Everyone is different, that is something some can not get a grasp of. I keep saying it, but the trend in the hobby has been towards r2r, and fewer actually build kits these days. This leaves a big gap between those who are prepared to build a kit, or are even able to, and those who just want to open a box and put item on the track. There is a lot of satisfaction in creating something, but a lot of disappointment if it does not go well, so having something part way, so people get the satisfaction of having something they can add their personal touch, and also have something that works OK, is why I believe my approach is a good approach. I would hope that once some have built up confidence then they might then build a kit or even scratch build.

As for tackling the chassis, I would see no problem in an unflanged centre wheel, as Bachmann use on the Emily coach. Again everyone has their own way of doing this, partly to cope with different track standards.

 

Simple question, I am sure someone can answer it. Are both the GNR luggage brake coaches the same length. I now know that the ones used in the 1938 train are 29ft ones(assuming the Railway Gazette article is correct), but the ECJS one in book is a 32ft one. The pannelling on the two preserved ones is differnt, but the one that is not in NRM has the 4 panels as per the ECJS one. Just curious. Like many older coaches they may have been modified over the years, and not be in origina condtion now.

Edited August 9, 2018 by rue_d_etropal

[Annie]

With 6 wheel coaches, - it was quite a few years ago now, - I built mine with dummy axleguards and they rode on a long centre pivoting bogie for one set of end axles and the middle axle and the other end axle was taken care of with a pony truck-like arrangement.  Worked fine.  I got the idea from a 1950's model railway magazine, - can't remember which one.

[JCL]

Not sure why some are making such a drama out of this. All I initialy wanted was info( I eventually found the bit on the LNER forum), but I only had the ECJS book and the drawings from the NER society. I have now tracked down the drawings available(some currently not available I think because they are being revised) by the GNR society.

Everyone is different, that is something some can not get a grasp of. I keep saying it, but the trend in the hobby has been towards r2r, and fewer actually build kits these days. This leaves a big gap between those who are prepared to build a kit, or are even able to, and those who just want to open a box and put item on the track. There is a lot of satisfaction in creating something, but a lot of disappointment if it does not go well, so having something part way, so people get the satisfaction of having something they can add their personal touch, and also have something that works OK, is why I believe my approach is a good approach. I would hope that once some have built up confidence then they might then build a kit or even scratch build.

As for tackling the chassis, I would see no problem in an unflanged centre wheel, as Bachmann use on the Emily coach. Again everyone has their own way of doing this, partly to cope with different track standards.

 

Simple question, I am sure someone can answer it. Are both the GNR luggage brake coaches the same length. I now know that the ones used in the 1938 train are 29ft ones(assuming the Railway Gazette article is correct), but the ECJS one in book is a 32ft one. The pannelling on the two preserved ones is differnt, but the one that is not in NRM has the 4 panels as per the ECJS one. Just curious. Like many older coaches they may have been modified over the years, and not be in origina condtion now.

 

If it's me you're talking about now, I hadn't realised I was making a drama out of it - I even said more power to you and it would be very interesting to see one finished. Apologies if my providing a different point of view has irritated you. When it comes to grasping them you could look closer to home.

 

Anyway, no hard feelings. To help you along, both luggage brakes were the same diagram and the same length. There are some gotchas with the other coaches, so don't just rely on drawings, check out the photos too.

 

cheers

 

Jason

[chris p bacon]

 

Everyone is different, that is something some can not get a grasp of. I keep saying it, but the trend in the hobby has been towards r2r, and fewer actually build kits these days. This leaves a big gap between those who are prepared to build a kit, or are even able to, and those who just want to open a box and put item on the track. There is a lot of satisfaction in creating something, but a lot of disappointment if it does not go well, so having something part way, so people get the satisfaction of having something they can add their personal touch, and also have something that works OK, is why I believe my approach is a good approach. I would hope that once some have built up confidence then they might then build a kit or even scratch build.

As for tackling the chassis, I would see no problem in an unflanged centre wheel, as Bachmann use on the Emily coach. Again everyone has their own way of doing this, partly to cope with different track standards.

 

 

Well if we're going to go down this road. . . ."What you can't seem to grasp"  is that a kit has just about everything in it to build a particular model,  the approach you've gone down with these coach bodies is to provide nothing except the body and seemingly pay no attention to how a purchaser is supposed to make the thing run.

 I asked about underframes as these coaches are not as generous on width underneath as others,  and designing it around an idea for an underframe would be better for the purchaser,  as just saying 'a flangeless centre wheel will do' isn't really helpful.  I know you call them 'Scratchbuild aids' and think they're easier than building a kit, but having seen an electric unit in WSF  I actually think you need just the same skills to build these as a kit.

[rue_d_etropal]

Been looking though the book, and it seems the ECJS luggage brakes were mainly 29ft long, except for the smaller number of gangwayed ones. Pity it is that one in the book.

I have ordered a copy of the non passenger coach book from GNR society. Probably a lot of other interesting things there as well. Also noticed NER Association have the 1909/12 diagram books in their list. I will order those as well. Pity I was not interested whilst at York exhibition.

According to Ken Hoole, only one of the 1938 set was actually ex ECJS. That was one of the first class , which is the same as what the NER reclassified as a Lav 3rd, and I have that drawing. Unfortunately most of the early 6 wheelers had been withdrawn before the 1909 diagram book was produced, and the only passenger coach without a toilet then was a brake third.I think toilets were then assumed to be essential, as there were already enough grumbles about the 6 wheel stock. The only all third I have come across is I think a GNR one, but then soe ECJS ended up with the GNR, such as the luggage brakes. The composite, I also aaaume is a GNR original. One thing not giving 3rd class a toilet, but 1st class would not have put up with i on such a long route.

One thing I am finding with pre-grouping coachesm is the variety and total lack of standards. The variety of widths for the ECJS is surprising. Anything from 7ft 6in up to 8ft 6n for the 6 wheelers. Much was 7ft 9in(was that a GNR standard?), and that is smaller than most of the shorter coaches I have found on other railways.

The differnt types of panelling, and beading are a minefield.  Never certain if drawings are correct, so photos are essential. Then they often don't show the parts you want. Having said that in the smaller scales, most would not notice the difference, but I still like to get it as near to correct as possile. One reason being that, there are differences for a reason, hopefully good, so having those small differences in a model is important.

If the original no longer exists, then a model is a good second best.Vivien Thompson says in her book on modelling buildings, that it is preserving history in miniature. Just don't get me onto to the subject of brick buildings, as I can outbid most rivet counters on that subject!

 

Until I get the books of diagrams, I plan to leave off these coaches. Might be tempted to do some of the other ones. There is a very nice articulated one, based on two ex 6wheelers.

Edited August 9, 2018 by rue_d_etropal

[JCL]

I haven't kept up with all of your releases but have you also thought about the composite brake at Ingrow? It has been rebuilt, there are a number of photos on the internet, and of course if you are up there, you can see it in the teak. It is included in Nick Campling's book.

[rue_d_etropal]

Certainly will consider. Would be good if I was to have a full set of their pre-grouping coaches. In fact I think it was outside the shed at the exhibition last year in July. I took some photos.

 

I should have the drawings for the L&Y ones they have, most of the bodies were retrieved from just down the road from where I am now living.

 

Currently switched to doing the corridor 1st and 3rd. Putting the luggage brake back into same style, and that will make a nice set. Also the 1st and 3rd can be combined to dreate the articulated set. They might not be suitable for the 1938 train, but I am sure they would look OK behind the Single. At least they are proper ECJS coaches.

Edited August 9, 2018 by rue_d_etropal

[rue_d_etropal]

As I want more info on the 1938 set, especially the drawings that I canget from GNR society, I have switched to some of the corridor 6 wheelers.

I have put the luggage brake back into that style, as it should be, plus the corridor 1st and the corridor 3rd. These 3 may have run behing the Stirling Single in normal serice, but the conversion of pairs odf 1st and 3rd classcoaches into an articulated twin was later. They do make up into an interesting vehicle which survived into LNER days. I have done the twin as one print, as it is short enough and gives a better idea of what it should look like.

Roof vents have been estimated from photos, one detail that is often missing on these operational drawings.

I discovered that the luggage brake only has the central door on one side. Luckily there was an overal plan for it in the book.

 

 

 

 

[rue_d_etropal]

Underground overground or is that overground underground?

Which ever way, I have done the District F stick, whic are vry distinctive due to their oval end windows. All 3 types of coch had same basic structure, just with and without driver doors, being replaced with extra windows.

[CarriageShed]

Underground overground or is that overground underground?

 

I think you'll find that underground overground is Wombling free...

[rue_d_etropal]

As I have only mentioned it under France, just repeating my latest effort here.

The Metropolitan Railway  8 wheel coaches. Some went to France, but also a few ended up on the Isle of Wight. Several ended up in departmental use, and some wre used on the Brill Branch.

Possibly diffiult to fit wheels. I know some would use bogies, but to me that is wrong, and would use unflanged wheels on centre pair od axles. They are not that visible under that chassis.

The composite here. I have started the other 3 rtypes, then there are the ones the Met part modified(it was mainly these that ended up on Isle of Wight), and the earlier square topped doorvariant(one of these went to the Isle of Wight). There are stilla lot of the old bodies used as huts,, so wonder if anyone will try to preserve ne. There is a cut down one , on KESR painted up as a District Railways coach.

One of my aims is to ge more interest in unusual items, preserving in miniature, but possibly leading to preservation of an original.

[rue_d_etropal]

That's it for the Metropolitan Railway 8 wheelers, unless I descide to do the earlier version with square topped doors.

 

The modified version, some of which ended up onthe Isle of Wight

I have removed lower foot boards, Some had none, some part, and some kept them(photo of one in departmental use), so easier to leave them off, as easy enough to add them if required.

Also roof left plain as variations there as well.

Edited August 20, 2018 by rue_d_etropal

[rue_d_etropal]

Something small and simple(?), at least only one version, the GWR petrol railcar. Will be in N, TT3, HO, O, O and G1

 

[rue_d_etropal]

More ex GER coaches, ths time two that Colonel Stephens bought. Renumbered as nos 9 and 10 Both started out on RVR/KESR then no 10 moved to S&MR. Not many photos of no 9, which had its guards duckets removed and was i effect cnverted into a full brake coach.

[rue_d_etropal]

The Mid Suffolk had an old ex GER brake third converted into a full brake. Not a dfficult conversion, looks like they just moved the passenger door, and replaced glass in other panels. There is one of the simlar, but original ones presrved on the Mid Suffolk now, but also it looks like one of the KESR coaches (no 20) was also the same. I plan to do coach 20(probably also 21 and 22).

[stewartingram]

What about that van they used on the W&U?

 

Stewart

[ullypug]

Or this one from the WCPR?

[rue_d_etropal]

the WCPR looks interesting, but would need more info and drawings. Similar with the W&U one.

[rue_d_etropal]

Trying to get more info onthe WCPR luggage/milk van. Bssed on another photoI estimate it to be a 27ft long 4 wheel coach. It has had the duckets removed, which interestingly would have been in same position as the later 6 wheel coaches. The 5 windows at end are another simlarity to the 6 wheelers. The panels between the doors look bigger one end than the other. Don't think this is a trick of the angle. I did a GIMP on another photo, and the panels also came out different lengths.

 

Looking at these non bogied GER coaches it is possible to see how the design evolved.

Edited August 28, 2018 by rue_d_etropal