Peco Bullhead Points: in the flesh

[Nile]

I go out for a few hours and this happens!

The flexi track measures 16.5mm

The point is a bit more tricky to measure accurately due to its slightly flexible nature. As far as I can tell its gauge is 16.4mm +/- 0.1mm .

Edited November 11, 2017 by Nile

[Quarryscapes]

Any pics of ballasted pointwork yet?

[Mallard60022]

Any pics of ballasted pointwork yet?

Yup, post 138.

S. Pecsavers.

Edited November 13, 2017 by Mallard60022

[Tim Dubya]

Ah... 4-SF, the way to go

[Nile]

Having liberated a check rail I tried Graham King's idea of replacing it with some phosphor bronze rail, from some old SMP track. The rail was cleaned before inserting it.

As its appearance can vary a lot depending on the lighting I've taken two photos, lit from the side or above.

[sp1]

Not quite so bad looking if you line up the inside of the railhead, the C&L seems to have a wider head too

Untitled.png

Thinking back to another thread, I remember Martin Wynne saying that either C&L or SMP bullhead rail was slightly underscale (I’m sure Martin would clarify) so what does that mean for the size of Peco’s rail?

[Mallard60022]

Thinking back to another thread, I remember Martin Wynne saying that either C&L or SMP bullhead rail was slightly underscale (I’m sure Martin would clarify) so what does that mean for the size of Peco’s rail?

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

P

[Tim Dubya]

Thinking back to another thread, I remember Martin Wynne saying that either C&L or SMP bullhead rail was slightly underscale (I’m sure Martin would clarify) so what does that mean for the size of Peco’s rail?

It's OO, course it's underscale

[bertiedog]

O Lord, please delivery us from the odd thou or two, comparisons with rival makes, different gauges, .......just use the Peco track with Peco points, they match correctly in use.

It is quite fair to compare, but mix and match makes brings such difficulties to light that simply do not matter, Peco sell as a system for RTL track, it works perfectly well with C&L as a bonus.

Keep laying the track.............

[Pacific231G]

 

CK, I think the limited production will be the testing of the waters. My thinking is also that this will not be just a one off batch and after my thoughtful email this morning to the Peco HQ I fully expect an eruption of further products from the Devon facility. I'd go in there ASAP if I were you and test the cafe then buy all the rest of this batch.

All the best

Phil

I don't think you need worry about this being just a batch to test the market.

 

The November edition of Loco Revue has Peco's advert for "le double champignon, un nouveauté de Peco Streamline en H0 voie flexible et aiguillages (nouveau type Unifrog) à droite et à gauche." Interestingly they don't quote a size for the points.

They were showing the bullhead plain track at TrainsMania in Lille at the end of April but this is the first reference I've seen to it as H0.

Though France is an important market for Peco and about half the pre nationalisation railways used bullhead* it has to be a secondary market for it compared to Britain so it's not likely they'd advertise it there  if they weren't fully committed to it.

 

*Technically only double champigon asymetrique with a larger head than foot is bullhead; many railways had chaired track with symmetrical section rail but that's splitting hairs.

[tomparryharry]

Sitting here in my medical limbo, I'd say Peco have done a very good job with this. I haven't had an opportunity to lay the stuff yet, but I fully intend to do so.

 

That said, I'd like to make an observation, and I do stress, observation.

 

Most points in real life carry 2 tiebars. The inner tiebar is highly important, as it maintains a safe working gauge through the initial divergence of the point. Some points now carry additional tiebars, with sometimes 3, before the load is carried onto the chairs. Check rails used to be subject to local conditions, with the local inspector calling for longer checks, if conditions demand it. It's not unusual to see check rails commencing at the toe, and running all the way past the frog, and on over to the next switch.

 

I can see a ready after market where you can buy an 'upgrade' kit, where you get extra tiebars, a press-in checkrail kit, along with detection bars, and an FPL cover. It's starting to get crowded down there! I even forgot locking bars!

 

As a rule of thumb, the higher the speed, the more work required to actually keep the trains on the track.

 

I can't wait to get off my ar$e, and finally get some modelling going!

 

Ian.

[Mallard60022]

Go Ian. I know that feeling.

Phil

[RANGERS]

Sitting here in my medical limbo, I'd say Peco have done a very good job with this. I haven't had an opportunity to lay the stuff yet, but I fully intend to do so.

 

That said, I'd like to make an observation, and I do stress, observation.

 

Most points in real life carry 2 tiebars. The inner tiebar is highly important, as it maintains a safe working gauge through the initial divergence of the point. Some points now carry additional tiebars, with sometimes 3, before the load is carried onto the chairs. Check rails used to be subject to local conditions, with the local inspector calling for longer checks, if conditions demand it. It's not unusual to see check rails commencing at the toe, and running all the way past the frog, and on over to the next switch.

 

I can see a ready after market where you can buy an 'upgrade' kit, where you get extra tiebars, a press-in checkrail kit, along with detection bars, and an FPL cover. It's starting to get crowded down there! I even forgot locking bars!

 

As a rule of thumb, the higher the speed, the more work required to actually keep the trains on the track.

 

I can't wait to get off my ar$e, and finally get some modelling going!

 

Ian.

 

Aren't the FP lock covers available as part of the Wills point rodding kits?

[JeremyC]

I had my first look at the new points at Harburn Hobbies in Edinburgh during a Peco Promotion this weekend attended by Peco. I have to say I thought they looked a very good product. While in discussion with the Peco representative the following were mentioned. They are very pleased with the reception and sales so far and the range will be extended. Items mentioned as possible future products were a diamond crossing and slips. A medium radius point was also mentioned [though anything sharper seems to be ruled out]. No time scale was given though.

 

It was interesting to get an insight into some of the reasons for the higher cost of these points. Peco flat bottom points are insert moulded [the rail is put in the mould and the sleepers formed round them] whereas the bullhead points have to be hand assembled into the moulded base. The blades need to be machined and this means they will be unique for each size of point, unlike the current pressed blade which is common to a number of products. There are also little things you don't think about, on the pressed blade they can include a tongue to fix it to the tiebar whereas on a machined blade they have to weld on a separate fixing for this.

[tomparryharry]

Aren't the FP lock covers available as part of the Wills point rodding kits?

 

Nicely spotted. You can blame me for not thinking to look over the Wills accessories.

 

Ian.

[coachmann]

I had my first look at the new points at Harburn Hobbies in Edinburgh during a Peco Promotion this weekend attended by Peco. I have to say I thought they looked a very good product. While in discussion with the Peco representative the following were mentioned. They are very pleased with the reception and sales so far and the range will be extended. Items mentioned as possible future products were a diamond crossing and slips. A medium radius point was also mentioned [though anything sharper seems to be ruled out]...............

 

This is interesting because the Code 75 and 100 slips are 2' radius.  Peco  mentioned they produced the large radius point becasue it would be most suited to the kind of modellers looking to buy bullhead track. With this in mind, it will be interesting to see how they manage a single or double slip within the existing geometry and based on the diamond crossing. To my mind, it cannot be done unless it is 2' radius, which is hardly going to appeal to those seeking more realism.  I rather suspect Peco might adopt their own Code 83 geometry when the range expands.

Edited November 12, 2017 by coachmann

[RANGERS]

Picked up one of these yesterday to have a good look and see if they're suitable for my next project. They're every bit as good as the photos suggest. As a mass produced item, insofar as it is 'mass produced', its as good as we're likely to get. Hand built track with ply sleepers, individual chairs and hand finished blades is the only thing likely to better these. The geometry may be a little unique but I'm puzzled at the level and depth of criticism of Peco's efforts with these.

[The Stationmaster]

Due to computer problems (i.e. it hasn't been working) which will shortly be repeated when the thing goes off to a local blacksmith 'puter mender I have been doodling with some Peco point templates that I managed to download and print prior to being electronically disabled.  In the lack of anything else I used the flat bottom large radius point templates assuming thee were probably nearest to the bullhead points and crossovers do start getting quite long of course.  Oddly the overscale 6 foot will suit me almost down to the ground thanks to that nice Mr Brunel using 6 foot spacing between his idea of standard gauge tracks so a wide spacing is needed at older station platforms and immediately beyond them (photographic proof available of course),

 

So apart from the most important missing item thus far being single slip if there are any of the initial 1,000 plus production run left in the shops I can now actually get somewhere track wise.  Overall they look pretty good and the turning of the Unifrog into a live frog looks to be a very simple matter needing only a suitable switch or set of point machine contacts plus insulated rail joiners in the right places for other than dead end sidings.  Well done Mr Peco and some dummy detection rodding might possibly help 'support' those extended switch toes?

 

​Why does the s*ddin' spill chucker turn Peco into peach?

Edited November 12, 2017 by The Stationmaster

[coachmann]

The spell-checker on Windows 10 is the worst i have ever had since windows 98. It hasn't a ###### clue.  English is American English no matter which box I tick.

Edited November 12, 2017 by coachmann

[Mallard60022]

Due to computer problems (i.e. it hasn't been working) which will shortly be repeated when the thing goes off to a local blacksmith 'puter mender I have been doodling with some Peco point templates that I managed to download and print prior to being electronically disabled.  In the lack of anything else I used the flat bottom large radius point templates assuming thee were probably nearest to the bullhead points and crossovers do start getting quite long of course.  Oddly the overscale 6 foot will suit me almost down to the ground thanks to that nice Mr Brunel using 6 foot spacing between his idea of standard gauge tracks so a wide spacing is needed at older station platforms and immediately beyond them (photographic proof available of course),

 

So apart from the most important missing item thus far being single slip if there are any of the initial 1,000 plus production run left in the shops I can now actually get somewhere track wise.  Overall they look pretty good and the turning of the Unifrog into a live frog looks to be a very simple matter needing only a suitable switch or set of point machine contacts plus insulated rail joiners in the right places for other than dead end sidings.  Well done Mr Peco and some dummy detection rodding might possibly help 'support' those extended switch toes?

 

​Why does the s*ddin' spill chucker turn Peco into peach?

Yes Mike, another person in 'the know' about track matters mentioned to me that a single slip was/is(?) one of the most used items and would make a great next product. I know nothing about this sort of thing, however many pictures I have of protoype, small station yards have a single slip or more in the layout.

Phil

As for spill chucker I can't even find the thing on here thus the bizarre words that turn up on my posts (along with dilsexia taking hold of course).

Phil

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

This is interesting because the Code 75 and 100 slips are 2' radius.  Peco  mentioned they produced the large radius point becasue it would be most suited to the kind of modellers looking to buy bullhead track. With this in mind, it will be interesting to see how they manage a single or double slip within the existing geometry and based on the diamond crossing. To my mind, it cannot be done unless it is 2' radius, which is hardly going to appeal to those seeking more realism.  I rather suspect Peco might adopt their own Code 83 geometry when the range expands.

 I rather feel those of us buying the product need to make our wishes known. My vote is for smaller crossing angle, larger radii: make this a significantly superior product, and clearly different from what has gone before. I might even send them a letter with the box ends stapled on; good start, now here's an idea for even better products.

 

...They (Peco) are very pleased with the reception and sales so far and the range will be extended. Items mentioned as possible future products were a diamond crossing and slips. A medium radius point was also mentioned [though anything sharper seems to be ruled out]...

 That's encouraging. It was mentioned in one of the earlier threads that a law of diminishing returns kicks in and the small radius point would look odd with this timbering.

[coachmann]

 I rather feel those of us buying the product need to make our wishes known. My vote is for smaller crossing angle, larger radii: make this a significantly superior product, and clearly different from what has gone before.................

 

If someone buys a bullhead large radius point, it means one less sale of a Code 75 or 100 point. A superior product of the type you describe may have something going for it because it has a unique selling point and is not triplicating that already available. It's a thought anyway.

Edited November 12, 2017 by coachmann

[Pint of Adnams]

The spell-checker on Windows 10 is the worst i have ever had since windows 98. It hasn't a ###### clue.  English is American English no matter which box I tick.

Larry,

 

Try settings from the home screen (the 'gear wheel'  symbol to the left, opened from the windows pop-up tiled menu) -> Time & language -> Region & language -> Country or region = United Kingdom

 

You should also set the language to be English (UK) in each of the applications that you use. Once you have done so and in applications such as MS Word you should also review the options set for checking, highlighting and suggesting changes or auto correction. In Word, but according to the version, it is found in the review ribbon (menu bar) and by way of the Language icon.

[Nile]

If someone buys a bullhead large radius point, it means one less sale of a Code 75 or 100 point. A superior product of the type you describe may have something going for it because it has a unique selling point and is not triplicating that already available. It's a thought anyway.

 

Not true in my case. I had, and still have, no intention of buying any more Peco FB 00 track.

[Chamby]

If someone buys a bullhead large radius point, it means one less sale of a Code 75 or 100 point. A superior product of the type you describe may have something going for it because it has a unique selling point and is not triplicating that already available. It's a thought anyway.

I don’t think Peco will be concerned about cannibalising FB sales. The new BH points and track carry a price premium and improved profit, so they will be happy to migrate a chunk of their business.

 

I think they will gain new sales too... some people will be tempted to start a small project using the new points, something that they probably wouldn’t have done otherwise. The ‘average enthusiast’ on a budget will still use FB on their 8x4, and I will too, in my fiddle yard. I reckon it will be C&L and SMP who will see the biggest impact within the more advanced modelling community, I imagine they will sell fewer B6 points but maybe in the short term more of the other stuff that Peco aren’t making yet.

 

I am grateful to DCC for giving Devon a poke! And it is their Cobalt Digital point motors that will sit under my nice new Peco BH, after all - I took delivery of a dozen this week.

 

Phil.