Peco Bullhead Points: in the flesh

[tender]

You're right, I stand corrected, the "Unifrog" makes the difference, i'm still thinking of continuous frogs and rails in one piece. With this independent frog section, all other rails can be continuously live DCC and the Unifrogs can be switchably live or dead, but for analogue DC you'd still need to insulate the middle of a crossover, as you also would for DCC using live points without independent frogs.   BK

 

Sorry, that's not how I read it, even with DC you only need insulators (or gaps) to isolate track sections. Providing you switch the 'unifrog' with the turnout or leave it 'dead' you can still have a crossover without additional insulators.

[Brian Kirby]

I have got into the habit of insulating with DC. It is all very well feeding a siding from a point but you will be relying on a point blade for the whole siding .

Isolating & re-feeding gets around this weak spot.

It also simplifies any troubleshooting. I had to untangle someone's feeding problems recently & it was a massive headache.

It puts the operator in control too because you can creep a loco along a siding without having to set the road for it to leave, then you can isolate with a switch.

I completely agree about dividing even a pure DCC into sections/running lines, if only as you say to simplify fault finding? Using older conventional pre-Unifrog point blades to switch sidings on/off is dodgy, especially when locos are being parked. Has anyone ever experienced the situation, where with one loco on each of two parallel sidings running from the same conventional point, and the point stuck midway or not making contact, with power applied, both locos will run in series. Not good.      BK

Edited November 14, 2017 by Brian Kirby

[Brian Kirby]

Sorry, that's not how I read it, even with DC you only need insulators (or gaps) to isolate track sections. Providing you switch the 'unifrog' with the turnout or leave it 'dead' you can still have a crossover without additional insulators.

With two of these Unifrog points mated together to make a crossover (frog-to-frog) without central insulation, would make both parallel tracks all common. That's fine for DCC, but DC needs to be able to reverse polarity on either line, unless you're running "one-engine-in-steam" or you just like all your trains running in the same direction?   BK

[Echo]

I completely agree about dividing even a pure DCC into sections/running lines, if only as you say to simplify fault finding? Using point blades to switch sidings on/off is dodgy, especially when locos are being parked. Has anyone ever experienced the situation, where with one loco on each of two parallel sidings running from the same conventional point, and the point stuck midway or not making contact, with power applied, both locos will run in series. Not good.      BK

The new Unifrog points don't use the point blades to provide power to sidings (or not). The tip of the frog is switchable if you wish or otherwise dead. Otherwise, everything is hard wired. Therefore for a DC crossover between 2 parallel main lines you do need insulated rail joiners. For DCC you don't.

[Sandpiper]

It occurs to me that the gap between the blades and the stock rail is a tad wide, so I might end up replacing the tie bars on mine and closing the gap a little.

 

 

Cutting the ends of the tie bar off should make a big difference but if you could close that gap as well it would look very nice indeed.

 

If only it were as easy as doing it with photo editing software. You go first. I look forward to seeing the results! 

Edited November 14, 2017 by Sandpiper

[Echo]

Need to be careful not to cut too much off the tiebars as they hold the ends of the point blades down.

[Brian Kirby]

The new Unifrog points don't use the point blades to provide power to sidings (or not). The tip of the frog is switchable if you wish or otherwise dead. Otherwise, everything is hard wired. Therefore for a DC crossover between 2 parallel main lines you do need insulated rail joiners. For DCC you don't.

We know the Unifrog points are live in all directions, hence the deliberations about using them on crossovers. The bit about the dodgy practice of using point blades to switch on/off sidings, applies to conventional points (DIY handmade or the rest of the Peco Streamline range, etc.).   BK 

[Echo]

We know the Unifrog points are live in all directions, hence the deliberations about using them on crossovers. The bit about the dodgy practice of using point blades to switch on/off sidings, applies to conventional points (DIY handmade or the rest of the Peco Streamline range, etc.).   BK 

That may have been clear to you. I was pointing it out because it may not have been clear to many other people reading this topic. In my opinion, you did not make the distinction clear in the post I was replying to.

[Brian Kirby]

That may have been clear to you. I was pointing it out because it may not have been clear to many other people reading this topic. In my opinion, you did not make the distinction clear in the post I was replying to.

Yes, I agree, I should have made it clearer, i've now gone back and amended the post.   BK

[Brian Kirby]

Besides ballasting, has anyone (cosmetically) rusted one up yet? We're talking rusty rail sides, even rustier check rails, a few weeds sticking up around the crossing timbers/sleepers? Rusting rails seems to be a science in itself, on new or well used rails the rusty sides appear golden brown, lack of use changes the colour to orangey-brown (classic rust in your paint pot), then raspberry red and eventually even black. I believe it's all to do with the flexing of the metal when driven over, rust particles flake off and wash away, before developing into thicker flakes?      BK 

[Jeff Smith]

I think that any rusting of rails and chairs would be fairly superficial. Rail steel, which if I remember correctly is high manganese, does not seriously rust, and cast iron for the chairs is high carbon and very corrosion resistant. My observation is that old track tends to all be the same very dark grey to black. This is the rail sides, chairs and ballast and is probably caused by a build up of dirt and oil. It makes weathering very easy.....

 

I remember years ago seeing an environmental spec for a DMU underframe mounted generator and it was more severe than the military equipment specs we were used to seeing.

[Trog]

I think that any rusting of rails and chairs would be fairly superficial. Rail steel, which if I remember correctly is high manganese, does not seriously rust, and cast iron for the chairs is high carbon and very corrosion resistant. My observation is that old track tends to all be the same very dark grey to black. This is the rail sides, chairs and ballast and is probably caused by a build up of dirt and oil. It makes weathering very easy.....

 

Note that rails rolled since the early 2000's tend to be a more orange brown colour than older rails which tend more to grey brown.

 

This is due to the change to using wear resistant type A rail steel as standard instead of the normal grade steel rails previously used .

[PMP]

You have a problem discussing the colour of a product......in a thread where buyers have just obtained the product and posted photos?

 Shall I answer your unmodified post?, which was as I recall:

 

faa77, on 14 Nov 2017 - 21:36, said:

 

You think the below is brown?

 

The answer is no, I know its brown because I've got some. I've also got some other Peco 'Brown' too.

My colour perception is CAA authenticated as being 100%, and backed up by Coachman who has spent a good part of his professional life as one of the hobby's foremost painter and decorators, concurring that the product is indeed 'brown'.

 

In reply to your amended question, I have no problem discussing the colour of the product. My earlier comment regarding fact free zones and Peco point threads perhaps applies if a correspondent endeavours to convince readers that a brown product is in fact black ....

 

However in light of the above we don't all see colour with the same degree of accuracy, and these products are dark brown. If you fall into that category no offence is intended.

[PMP]

I'm pleased to see PMP back from the wilderness, otherwise known as Blogland (or other fora). I bought a pair of these new bullhead points to try, at the South-West London show on Saturday, [snip]  

                                         Cheers, Brian.

 Wilderness?   oh do tell please, we need even more fact free info on here.

 

So keeping in the tradition of fact free data and Peco points, are you now suggesting that an exhibition in South West London on the weekend of the 11th and 12th November is a major Christmas show that will affect supplies and demand of Peco bullhead points?

[Brian Kirby]

 Wilderness?   oh do tell please, we need even more fact free info on here.

 

So keeping in the tradition of fact free data and Peco points, are you now suggesting that an exhibition in South West London on the weekend of the 11th and 12th November is a major Christmas show that will affect supplies and demand of Peco bullhead points?

Eh?  

BTW, last time I looked on any blogs or other model railway fora, I saw tumbleweed blowing across my screen, then I fell asleep.    BK   

[PatB]

Funny thing, colour perception. In my pottery business I have a rather nice, cornflower blue glaze. Being pigmented with cobalt (carbonate or oxide depending on availability) it's very definitely blue. However, maybe 10% of customers insist on calling it purple or lilac. Which can be confusing because, in the same range, we've got one that really is lilac. Goodness knows how they see that one. .

[PMP]

Eh?  

BTW, last time I looked on any blogs or other model railway fora, I saw tumbleweed blowing across my screen, then I fell asleep.    BK   

You're clearly reading the wrong ones try this one  https://albionyard.wordpress.com/ for example 453 hits today, 67,000 so far this year and around 350,000 since starting. Others do even better, Chris Nevard and George Dent having in excess of 1 million hits on their blogs.

[Sandpiper]

The Peco sleepers are definitely brown not black. Hopefully it shows better in this pic with a black loco for comparison. I've somewhat crudely removed the ends of the tie bars digitally.

Edited November 16, 2017 by Sandpiper

[Sandpiper]

Here's a pic showing how easy it is to put a gentle bend in the straight (left) route through the points and also how easy it would be to accidentally twist them vertically! Without something to hold them down though they immediately spring back into shape when you let go.

 

 

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Has anybody had any problems with shorting anywhere yet? I have tried several locos (Bachmann / Heljan / Hornby) and all have been fine and will crawl smoothly through the points at very slow speed. However the leading drivers on my Hornby K1 look to come very close to causing a short. I was pushing the wheels over with my finger as far as they would go in this pic however and in practice I couldn't get them to actually short.

 

Edited November 16, 2017 by Sandpiper

[gr.king]

Very useful to see these images. Have you tried to establish how good a curved point can be formed by flexing the structure the other way? Is something like 8 foot equivalent radius on the former straight road possible, with something like 3 foot equivalent radius on the tightened curved road?

 

No need for the track purists to take the trouble to correct my erroneous use of radii in lieu of crossing angles and switch numbers - I'm dealing with approximations here, not precision miniature engineering duplicates of real track.

 

If it's a chore to try to form the points into those curves just to answer my question then don't bother please, as I hope to get hold of some of these myself fairly soon anyway.

[Mallard60022]

If only one could remove "somewhat crudely" some of the folk that will insist on niggling on these threads and if that insults anyone....if the cap fits etc. Why can't we just enjoy this new product and chat about how we will use it/adapt it/modify it/develop it?

Thanks

Phil

[Captain Kernow]

Need to be careful not to cut too much off the tiebars as they hold the ends of the point blades down.

Interesting, thanks for that, It is clearly important if one is going to retain the bulk of the Peco tie bar.

 

In my case, I will probably replace it completely, and will also in all probability, re-wire the point to correspond with that of a conventional 'live frog' type.

[Captain Kernow]

I think that any rusting of rails and chairs would be fairly superficial. Rail steel, which if I remember correctly is high manganese, does not seriously rust, and cast iron for the chairs is high carbon and very corrosion resistant.

Unless your rails are laid right next to the sea, such as at Dawlish. When I was working, any rail laid along the Dawlish Sea Wall stretch was expected to last about half that of other locations.

[Sandpiper]

Have you tried to establish how good a curved point can be formed by flexing the structure the other way? Is something like 8 foot equivalent radius on the former straight road possible, with something like 3 foot equivalent radius on the tightened curved road?

 

The point will certainly flex both ways. However I haven't pushed it too far as my planned layout will only have a very gentle bend over its eight foot length and I merely want the points to blend smoothly in with the plain track.

 

They are very flexible but if I wanted to do something more drastic than I am planning I think I would have just bought one and then tried pinning it down on a piece of board whilst flexed into different angles and radii, then running lots of different stock over it. It may be that bending it too much will upset the geometry and clearances and increase the potential for derailments and shorts. They are also quite delicate so there is probably some potential for breaking bits off or putting kinks in the rails.

Edited November 16, 2017 by Sandpiper

[Oldddudders]

If only one could remove "somewhat crudely" some of the folk that will insist on niggling on these threads and if that insults anyone....if the cap fits etc. Why can't we just enjoy this new product and chat about how we will use it/adapt it/modify it/develop it?

Thanks

Phil

Handsomely said, Phil, but it seems that any new-product thread has to endure a minority of naysayers and those who wish to pour cold water, or see quite clearly how it could have been done better. As you say, in the meantime, the rest of us look, learn and maybe invest.