Automated DCC Operation

[Sir TophamHatt]

I know it's probably been asked before but I can't quite find any threads on the basics of automated operation.

 

At the moment, just stopping at a station.

 

How easy is it to do?

[Junctionmad]

I know it's probably been asked before but I can't quite find any threads on the basics of automated operation.

 

At the moment, just stopping at a station.

 

How easy is it to do?

It's actually quite complicated to do well n DCC.

[ColinK]

But it can be done. One of my friends has automated his layout and it works well. You can also drive trains manually at the same time carefully following the signals. It makes running a large layout yourself very interesting. He uses Traincontroller software.

 

I often wonder at exhibitions why layouts haven't been automated so the exhibitors can spend time chatting to the public while trains are running. In particular, for large continous run layouts with big fiddle yards where one train goes round, the points change and the next train goes round etc etc etc.

[Oldddudders]

DCC is intended to give the operator the feel of driving the train, not the track. Since the entire layout is live at full track volts all the time, it requires a lot of kit to identify where each train is, and send automated commands to stop it gently in the right place. Software enabling this exists from several specialist suppliers, but it cannot work without complex systems to follow a train’s progress.

 

As Junctionmad implies, DC can probably do the job nearly as well, a lot more easily, and at considerably less expense.

[Sir TophamHatt]

Hmm.

That's a shame but probably a bit too much work for me right now.

 

Thanks though

[Vonzack]

If I can give you some advice, if you are interested in automating the layout in the future and you're planning to use current detection, then think about installing the blocks now (assuming your still track laying). You can always common wire the blocks now and just run DCC and then when you start adding block detection, you just have to intercept the track feeds.

 

Also, if you are going with blocks and you are expecting a train to stop in them, sub-divide them into a slowing zone and a stopping zone. If you have a bi-directional route then you would split the block into 3 zones with a stopping zone at each end.

 

Good luck.

[tender]

If your decoders a ABC compatible (Lenz, Zimo etc) then it's fairly easy. You just need to isolate a section of track in the station and connect it to the rest with an ABC unit (you can make one with a few diodes) and set a few CVs in the decoder.

I'm sure there's a thread here somewhere discribing it more fully.

[WIMorrison]

I am going through a process that has a similar set of challenges in that I am designing a new layout and I will be planning to use automation on at least parts of it to ensure there is movement happening all the time to keep interest for visitors.

 

I am at the drawing stage (using Anyrail software) and as I plan I consider the block requirements to ensure that when I lay the track - hopefully commencing over XMas - I will get the blocks right first time. They will still all be wired to the bus at that point and I will attach the current detectors (Digikeijs 5088 when available). Each block will have 3 sections to allow for bi-directional and with only 16 sensors on each module this will be something that grows as money becomes available as I would need too many modules from day 1 if I tried to do it all at once, but planning will support me going this way.

 

This will allow me to get a layout going that I won’t have to cut later, which must be a bonus - though I have purchased some very thin diamond blades for my dremel that would allow cutting on the track afterwards.

 

There are some very helpful people here who have replied to posts I and others have made about this, a mine of very useful information that helped me a huge amount.

[Ray H]

If your decoders a ABC compatible (Lenz, Zimo etc) then it's fairly easy. You just need to isolate a section of track in the station and connect it to the rest with an ABC unit (you can make one with a few diodes) and set a few CVs in the decoder.

I'm sure there's a thread here somewhere discribing it more fully.

 

Any chance of a pointer to that thread or some idea what it might be titled Ray?

[WIMorrison]

http://www.aandhmodels.co.uk/abc-braking---automation-without-a-computer-1242-c.asp

 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...Oh, and the preference of these exhibitors to run their own layout themselves (like: playing trains) and not deriving any pleasure at pressing a button and then watch the trains trundle by while twiddling their thumbs ...

This is an aspect of the hobby where I have come to realise that I am way out of step with the majority taste. I so enjoyed watching the real trains, that a control system that does all that with the models, while I just watch them glide around, is just the ticket. Using DCC like this at home makes watching much exhibition operation painful. Decoders will perform the extended coast and braking of a train coming to a standstill to a far more realistic standard than an operator 'driving'. Likewise creeping into motion, and then smoothly grafting up to speed, as the train departs.

 

The only direct driving I do is shunting moves. And even there it's just the reverses and speed up/speed down. The selected CV3 and 4 settings perform the movement control, for far more effective simulation of heavy and thus high inertia vehicle movement than direct manual control can achieve.

[WIMorrison]

I have to agree with the last post, and when at an exhibition I want to talk to the operator and not have the conversation interrupted by him walking away to do this or that - this is where DCC really wins, the layout continues to operate and the interested visitors can have a good discussion with the owner on the detail whilst not detracting from the movement of trains which is what the majority of people want to see.

 

The great majority of visitors are only taking a passing interest and if nothing is moving there is no interest, which provides the operator dilemma - does he speak to the interested visitor and ignore the casual visitor or vice verse, they are generally exclusive of each other.

 

DCC with automation, even just limited, supports both of the requirements.

Edited November 22, 2017 by WIMorrison

[tender]

Any chance of a pointer to that thread or some idea what it might be titled Ray?

  

http://www.aandhmodels.co.uk/abc-braking---automation-without-a-computer-1242-c.asp

That's a useful reference, or try a search for ABC or BM1. The one I recall that shows how to make up your own ABC (BM1,2) unit using diodes is being a bit elusive. I'll post a link when I find it unless anyone here beats me to it.

[Ray H]

Was this the one you were thinking of Ray?
 
Assymetric DCC Generator

 

I haven't delved deeper but it appears that this only slows the train to a stop (if I've read it right). Is there a DIY equivalent that will restart the train?

 

We're about to convert an O gauge layout to DCC at the club. Part of it has the next best thing to permissive block on a Goods Line that we'd like to retain. We had thought initially about simply turn power off and on as appropriate to control movement of the trains along the track but it seems that this is not a good idea with DCC locos. Hence the need to be able to stop and restart trains automatically.
 

[RFS]

I am going through a process that has a similar set of challenges in that I am designing a new layout and I will be planning to use automation on at least parts of it to ensure there is movement happening all the time to keep interest for visitors.

 

I am at the drawing stage (using Anyrail software) and as I plan I consider the block requirements to ensure that when I lay the track - hopefully commencing over XMas - I will get the blocks right first time. They will still all be wired to the bus at that point and I will attach the current detectors (Digikeijs 5088 when available). Each block will have 3 sections to allow for bi-directional and with only 16 sensors on each module this will be something that grows as money becomes available as I would need too many modules from day 1 if I tried to do it all at once, but planning will support me going this way.

 

This will allow me to get a layout going that I won’t have to cut later, which must be a bonus - though I have purchased some very thin diamond blades for my dremel that would allow cutting on the track afterwards.

 

There are some very helpful people here who have replied to posts I and others have made about this, a mine of very useful information that helped me a huge amount.

 

Before spending a lot of money on detectors, and wiring multiple sections per block, I would recommend reviewing the RR&Co Traincontroller software. The Silver and Gold versions, although they seem expensive, are quite sophisticated and will allow you to run full automation using just a single occupancy detector per block.  The saving in hardware, not to mention complexity, can easily exceed the software cost. With the single detector, all your brake and stop markers are "virtual contacts", and you can have multiple sets of these as required (eg for short and long trains) and in both directions. 

 

I started out with Silver and only recently upgraded to Gold. The Gold version has added management of long trains in short blocks which makes scheduling very easy. I've always operated with just a single detector per block (one rail gapped only).

 

You can run the TC software in simulation mode on your PC free of charge so you can get a feel for how it operates. 

 

The download page for the software and documentation is here - http://www.freiwald.com/pages/download.htm

Edited November 22, 2017 by RFS

[WIMorrison]

I agree with your suggestions of learning about the software available. I have reduced the list to two, iTrain and TrainController. I hope to be able to look at both in some depth on Suday at Warley as a couple of suppliers have agreed to meet me and have a discussion about the software

 

If I can reduce the number of sections per block and simplify things then I will be a happy teddy!

[Ron Ron Ron]

...... Assymetric DCC Generator

 

I haven't delved deeper but it appears that this only slows the train to a stop (if I've read it right). Is there a DIY equivalent that will restart the train?

 

 

 

There is no need for a separate module to restart the train.

 

These modules are switched into circuit on the braking section and the Assymetric DCC they produce triggers the decoder to slow the loco/train down to a stop.

 

When the module is switched back out of circuit, the normal DCC is restored and the decoder responds and starts the loco/train again.

 

Switching the module on or off can be done via manual selection (on/off switch), a track activated switch, by turnout operation or by signals changing.

 

.

[tender]

Was this the one you were thinking of Ray?

 Assymetric DCC Generator

 

I haven't delved deeper but it appears that this only slows the train to a stop (if I've read it right). Is there a DIY equivalent that will restart the train?

 

We're about to convert an O gauge layout to DCC at the club. Part of it has the next best thing to permissive block on a Goods Line that we'd like to retain. We had thought initially about simply turn power off and on as appropriate to control movement of the trains along the track but it seems that this is not a good idea with DCC locos. Hence the need to be able to stop and restart trains automatically.

 

Hi Ray, if I remember correctly you can restart the train by shorting out the BM1 with a switch or if the decoder supports it, there's a CV you can set a stop time to after which the train restarts itself. I think you can change the direction as well so setting up a shuttle with 2 BM1's.

[Suzie]

Automation is never simple, but if you know how to automate a DC layout the same wiring can be used to automate a DCC layout using asymmetric braking modules and compatible decoders with asymmetric braking support.

 

When automating you will typically install point control and signalling, and then do what is required to get the trains to obey the signals. If you have a simple loop where all trains just follow one another with simple automatic block signalling it is quite easy to do with off-the-shelf block signals from several manufacturers intended for DC just by adding the BM1 modules to the brake sections.

 

If you are automating junctions then you will be better off using a full software solution to control your signals which will be much more complex with junction indicators etc. Software such as JMRI, Rocrail or Railroad&Co also have the ability to track and drive trains using the detection facilities which control the signals.

 

Why don't many exhibition layouts have automatic running? Cost! Reckon on spending an additional 50% of the total layout cost on signals, electronics and software. You will have to put quite a bit of time in to doing it as well. Human operators are relatively cheap in comparison when they have to be there to set the layout up and take it down anyway.

 

Is it worth automating with DCC? yes if you can do it. Nice smooth operation, prototypical signals, door open lights at station stops with proper dwell times, lots of time to chat with the operator too while the trains do their thing if you have a budget that can run in to four figures for a reasonable size exhibition layout.

[Pete the Elaner]

I often wonder at exhibitions why layouts haven't been automated so the exhibitors can spend time chatting to the public while trains are running.

I can't think of anything less appealing than having a layout run itself. I don't often drive trains at home because I am always working on stock or, more usually, the layout itself. Exhibitions are therefore my operating sessions.

 

Chatting to the public is nice too. I have found that an operating sequence makes a huge difference. Without it, we used to have to break conversation to shout operating commands to each other, which was unpleasant for both parties & often resulted in the member of the public being gone when I looked back up. A sequence reduces this to a quick glance at the instruction card. The public don't mind because they expect that someone behind the layout will be operating. I can even include what I am doing into the conversation.

[WIMorrison]

Interesting response which then begs the question as to whether exhibitions are held to showcase some superb models and entice the public into the hobby by providing advice and guidance, or it simply a way to give the owner some dedicated time to operate the layout.

 

I suggest the former and it is movement on the model that entices people to look and interact with the exhibitor - if you take a look at which models attract the most attention at exhibitions you will notice is is the layouts that have something happening, static models such as dioramas, layouts without movement do not create the same level of attention. 

[Ray H]

There is no need for a separate module to restart the train.

 

These modules are switched into circuit on the braking section and the Assymetric DCC they produce triggers the decoder to slow the loco/train down to a stop.

 

When the module is switched back out of circuit, the normal DCC is restored and the decoder responds and starts the loco/train again.

 

Switching the module on or off can be done via manual selection (on/off switch), a track activated switch, by turnout operation or by signals changing. 

.

 

Hi Ray, if I remember correctly you can restart the train by shorting out the BM1 with a switch or if the decoder supports it, there's a CV you can set a stop time to after which the train restarts itself. I think you can change the direction as well so setting up a shuttle with 2 BM1's.

Thanks for these responses. I was too busy thinking that the "operating" switch (or whatever) was a simple On-Off mechanism, where On linked the braking section to the rest of the layout via the BM1 whilst the Off position didn't link anything to anything - effectively an open circuit. That's why I asked about the restart.

 

I now see that the Off position links the braking section to the rest of the layout directly, thereby bypassing the the BM1. 

[RAF96]

Just to add to what the DIY BM1 can do.

 

 

Take a Hornby Sapphire ADCC support for instance. By setting a couple of CVs (52 and 53) to enable and configure ADCC you can allow the Sapphire to 'see' the BM1 in one or both directions or in push-pull mode with an intermediate stop and also set the stop time. See R8245 manual downloadable from Hornby site for CV values.

 

Single direction allows you to stop in one direction with restart by way of by-pass switch (say red/green signal) but drive through in the other direction or drive out if stopped into a siding say.

 

Double direction means exactly that - stops both ways.

 

The manual gives no further detail on 'push-pull mode' other than it allows an intermediate stop for the time set.

 

 

Rob

Edited November 23, 2017 by RAFHAAA96