Hills of the North - The Last Great Project

[2750Papyrus]

5 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Yes, that's 92167, one of the 3 stoker fitted examples. They were initially allocated to Saltley depot (from 1958) for use on the 'famous' through fitted goods service from Washwood Heath to Carlisle via the S&C, a long standing ex-MR institution. That was always Saltley's 'top link' job, the crews lodging at Carlisle. It was Black 5s, prior to that date. I was aware of the use of 9Fs on this service but again, a late 1950s scenario.

 

 

Terry Essery recounts his experience with mechanical stoker fitted 9Fs in "Saltley Firing Days", including one trip where he had to fire by hand around the apparatus after it failed.

[Leander]

5 hours ago, 30851 said:

 

Edit to add - the RCTS book on the 9F's says 92015-7 and 92161/2 were allocated to Newton Heath in June 58 and used on fitted freights from Manchester to Carlisle via the Settle and Carlisle route.

 

Rob

The Newton Heath allocation of 9Fs were seen on a fairly regular basis working through Preston on the WCML, but those workings, and their appearances on Summer dated excursion trains to the Fylde Coast, was pretty much all we saw of them circa 1960.

[30851]

6 hours ago, 30851 said:

 

Seems 92023 (a Crosti) and 92050 were allocated (for a month) to Kingmoor in 1955. There were there for tests - no clue what tests though.

 

Edit to add - the RCTS book on the 9F's says 92015-7 and 92161/2 were allocated to Newton Heath in June 58 and used on fitted freights from Manchester to Carlisle via the Settle and Carlisle route.

 

Rob

 

On further research in the RCTS book 92023 and 92050 were on tests going north to Kilmarnock. The tests were to compare the standard 9F with a Crosti version. These were road trails after tests in the Rugby Testing Station. The test trains consisted of 600 tons of empty passenger stock - which sounds like an expensive train to model!

 

But there was another road trail with 92013 between Skipton and Carlisle in September/October 1954. This was a shorter train but would be unique as it consisted of a Dynamometer car and Mobile Test Units.

 

Crewe did send them north for testing on completion. But I don't know how far north.

 

Other than that it seems 9F's didn't start appearing in general use until 1958 when they started to run on the Settle and Carlisle. 

 

Rob

 

[philip-griffiths]

 

The lack of 9Fs suggests enough 8Fs of the 2-8-0 and Super D variety?  Had a look at shed allocations and Carlisle seemed light of Super Ds, but there were some at Preston.  You must have something LNWR on the layout…. :-)

 

regards

[LNER4479]

From what I can ascertain, the traffic pattern was such that it was the faster-moving, partially or fully fitted goods traffic that was concentrated on the Shap route, with the slower moving stuff routed over the S&C - where necessary, using the now lost Wigan-Chorley-Blackburn link. Consequently, Black 5s (supplemented by occasional 5XPs) were far more common on the Shap route than 8Fs, as has already been alluded to.

 

It was Shap bank itself that led to operating restrictions, a max 15 unbraked wagons being allowed without a banker. And slowing moving trains held up the faster, more prestigious traffic in any case. Not so over the S&C, where there was no banking, fewer prestige trains and where an 8F was good for a prolonged 25mph slog up the 'long drag'. There were some faster goods traffic over the S&C (eg the Washwood Heath working already quoted) but not as much as over Shap.

 

Happy for the above to be corrected / clarified - do bear in mind that it is the 1950s I'm focused on.

Edited January 10 by LNER4479

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, philip-griffiths said:

The lack of 9Fs suggests enough 8Fs of the 2-8-0 and Super D variety?  Had a look at shed allocations and Carlisle seemed light of Super Ds, but there were some at Preston.

 

Super Ds - Class G2 - were 7F. Apologies if that is to the chagrin of LNWR enthusiasts!

[LNER4479]

Meanwhile - and as promised - some latest progress.

 

With Bog Junc board modified and a certain amount of previous mocking up done, can now install the all important goods line between there and Upperby.

 

The curve will have a removable section for access. It is also on a descending gradient. A bit steeper than I would have liked (@ 1-in-45), although most trains will be trip workings. Also, there's a trade-off with the WCML grad towards Citadel and priority is to have as gentle as gradients as possible for the big passenger trains.

 

Here, my 3 foot radius template is being used to determine the optimum position for the removable section (an existing piece of 3 foot radius ply). The removable piece will be the steepest part of the curve; the idea here is to let each side of the curve ease out equally.

 

And here we are with the aforementioned piece cut to length and trial fitted. Doesn't look too bad?

Edited January 10 by LNER4479

[Jol Wilkinson]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Super Ds - Class G2 - were 7F. Apologies if that is to the chagrin of LNWR enthusiasts!

 

Not at all. The fact that a design based derived from locomotives produced in the very early 1900s and which lasted well into BR days is something to applaud.

[philip-griffiths]

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Super Ds - Class G2 - were 7F. Apologies if that is to the chagrin of LNWR enthusiasts!

Conspiracy by derby men to make their locomotives come across as more powerful than they really were…….  🤣 

 

Interest insight about the main line and keeping the slow traffic off it, thanks very much.  Of course you could have a set of locomotives, carriages and wagons to back date Shap to LNWR days…, would make an interesting change..  But I think you’ve got your hands full modelling the 1950s…

[Compound2632]

40 minutes ago, philip-griffiths said:

Conspiracy by derby men to make their locomotives come across as more powerful than they really were…….  🤣 

 

Not at all - the Austin Sevens were 7F, and they were Derbyised G2s. It took an ex-GW man to get us up to Eight. 

[BWsTrains]

3 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Not at all. The fact that a design based derived from locomotives produced in the very early 1900s and which lasted well into BR days is something to applaud.

 

True; but at least back then the pace of technology change was much slower.....  

[Fishplate]

8 hours ago, BWsTrains said:

at least back then the pace of technology change was much slower.....  

 

Or were people and organisations content with "if it works, why break it?" .

 

Compare to the current need for constant change/ "innovation" and not letting change bed in before the next change starts. 

[46256]

Briefly returning to the famous freight over the Settle line. I believe in steam days it was the 4 50 pm departure from Water Orton yards. This was my home village. I have included a photograph of what I believe is the train about to commence its journey. The tender filled to capacity, not the case on arrival, some hours later!

Terry Essery comments in his book there were no fat firemen!

Edited January 11 by 46256

[LNER4479]

Great photo @46256 - thanks!

 

That departure time (which is entirely logical) would account for why any pictures of the train on the S&C are always southbound. I would surmise a similar departure time from Carlisle for the return working, hence early evening pictures of the Up train on the S&C.

 

I can see that 45268 was a Saltley ever-present throughout the 1950s. So, perhaps I'll number one of my Black 5s accordingly - and have the 9F for the other half of the lodging turn, then everyone's happy 🙂

[Barry O]

13 hours ago, philip-griffiths said:

Conspiracy by derby men to make their locomotives come across as more powerful than they really were…….  🤣 

 

Interest insight about the main line and keeping the slow traffic off it, thanks very much.  Of course you could have a set of locomotives, carriages and wagons to back date Shap to LNWR days…, would make an interesting change..  But I think you’ve got your hands full modelling the 1950s…

The layout has  an interesting source of LNWR locos  available.. its the wagons and coaches which would be a problem..

 

Baz

[Tortuga]

…and the first two wagons are Highs loaded with containers!

[46256]

I recall a similar picture in the book From the Footplate, the route of the Devonian . I have the book but is in store pending house move. If I recall it has one of the Saltley trio of 9fs in the same spot as the black five awaiting departure . I’ve just been reading an entry, on another blog, by an ex Saltley footplate crew member. In diesel days a class 45 or 25 was rostered. There were two trains daily,  booking on at 0300 hrs to staff the 03 50 departure from Water Orton. The second 15 00 for 1545 departure, arriving at Carlisle at 23 40. The departure from Carlisle was 16 03 arriving at Washwood heath at 23 33 hrs. 

Edited January 11 by 46256

[46256]

I believe this may be the class 25 working mentioned. I’ve tried to work out the four figure headcode 

 

4 fast freight

S scotland

 

67 train number.

In any event on the fast lines at Water Orton heading towards Derby and North East

Edited January 11 by 46256

[Chamby]

Whilst locomotive depot allocations are undoubtedly a valuable indicator of what might have operated where and when, for those not aware there is another resource available that pools train spotters notes of the loco’s that were logged at a particular shed on a specific day.  The shedbashuk website therefore gives a useful indication of how far some locos travelled from their home shed, and where they were turned and serviced at the far end of their runs.
 

www.shedbashuk.blogspot.com

 

 

[5 C]

3 hours ago, Chamby said:

Whilst locomotive depot allocations are undoubtedly a valuable indicator of what might have operated where and when, for those not aware there is another resource available that pools train spotters notes of the loco’s that were logged at a particular shed on a specific day.  The shedbashuk website therefore gives a useful indication of how far some locos travelled from their home shed, and where they were turned and serviced at the far end of their runs.
 

www.shedbashuk.blogspot.com

 

 

That's really interesting and useful, thank you.

 

Looking at the shed of my RMWeb username, it shows both 9F's and WD's on dates in the 1960's. Plenty of 8F's and ex-LNWR G2's as I would have expected.

 

I have numerous reference book photographs of the area but apart from a polished up 9F on a railtour on the Shropshire Union Line, I've no other picture reference of those types in the area.

[LNER4479]

Continuing on at Upperby.

 

New boards corked and painted.

 

The central, removable piece already has track alignment pins in (3ft radius), so here I'm using these as a 'springboard' to plot the new alignment pins in either direction.

 

As always, entering the versines (offset of a pin from the two with side) as I go along.

 

Can you see them? To the right of the length of track with the coaches on.

 

And repeat, down at the Bog Junc end.

 

So we're ready for more tracklaying? Well ... yes ... but there's some pointwork still to finalise at Upperby Juncs yet.

 

[LNER4479]

15 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

... but there's some pointwork still to finalise at Upperby Juncs yet.

 

Talking of which ...

 

Yikes! An indication of the work involved. Note the two square holes to accommodate point motor plus switch. I pre-wire these - my days of being scrunched up underneath baseboards, trying to solder upwards in a restricted space are over (says he, boldly but naively).

 

Phew - that's better. The slips in the foreground are next ...

 

[LNER4479]

The square-headed mice have been at it again.

 

More point motor installation, more wiring ...

 

... and another 'phew!' moment when it all goes back in, this time for keeps.

 

Underneath - for now - it's a rat's nest, pending installation of permanent control panel. But at least with pre-wiring done it's not quite as bad as it could be.

 

I was thinking that this could be the most complex part of the layout to wire up ... but I keep reminding myself of the southern end of Citadel station, or Carlisle No.5 as it's better known.

 

Talking of which ...

[LNER4479]

There was a delivery last month.

 

 

[LNER4479]

Only one item in the van ...

 

 

But it looks interesting!