Bridge bashing

[chriswright03]

I can't help but think the view that training is too expensive is a perception based on an incomplete picture..

 

According to one of my training colleagues, the average cost of obtaining a class 1, C+E licence for a driver with no 7.5t entitlement is circa £4000, that includes the training, medical and tests for each subsequent stage. That takes a driver from a car to the heaviest, largest and with some loads, by far the most valuable vehicles on our roads. Those roads are shared by everyones wives, kids; brothers, sisters; mums, dads, Uncle Tom Cobley and all. Their safety is dependent on the skill of that driver, what price on that? In reality, the cost of training is fairly modest.

 

However, take the cost in relation to earning capacity, and it could be argued there is a discrepancy. We all benefit from the highly competitive nature of the haulage industry, no two ways about it, it's dog eat dog, the low costs filter through to every single thing you buy in the shops and the result is driver's pay rates which nowhere near reflect the level of responsibility they carry, remember again, every road user's safety is dependent on their skill. The cost of training, which until fairly recently was viewed as being the sole responsibility of the prospective trucker, takes a significant proportion of first year earnings, something many find hard to swallow. Thankfully most larger hauliers do now accept that if they want to have a sustainable business, they have to train drivers who don't have a licence and if they want to keep them, they have to pay them a decent living, little point in having fought for work to keep their 1000 lorries on the road if there's nobody to drive them.

 

There's a perception that Eastern European drivers are taking jobs from UK drivers, the truth is there's very few here who want to drive for a living, those Europeans wouldn't be there if there were more UK nationals who wanted to drive trucks. Aside from the unsocial hours, nights out, frequently poor facilities for drivers (especially women), pressure to meet delivery schedules against the spectre of congestion, not to mention the threat of substantial fines, for instance how many of us go to work each day with the threat of a £300 fine for a relatively minor misdemeanour (failure to move the tacho mode switch to rest when taking a break).

 

When pay rates stacking shelves in supermarkets, which will pretty much guarantee you'll be in your own bed every night and don't cost you a bean if you make a mistake, are comparable with a professional trucker who will probably have paid several thousand pounds for his licence, who'd be a trucker?

An excellent view of the situation if I may say so.  As I said earlier wages for driving a truck these days are nowhere near what they used to be in the 1970's and 1980's.  Tendering for contracts is usually a race to the bottom so the money left for wages suffers.

 

Your point about the skill of the driver and safety is well made as well but reminds me of a topic often discussed when I was on the buses.  We drove arguably the most precious cargo about all day long.  Those same children, partners and relatives.  On a double decker that is just short of 100 people and for that most are paid just above the minimum wage for such a massive responsibility.  Actually Public Service is usually paid more than Private Hire so that coach on the motorway driving for hours on end is highly likely driven by someone earning basic wage.

 

I actually don't know the cost of obtaining a PCV licence as my one was paid for by the Company with an agreement that we paid back £1000 over the first year (I think) and it was repaid to us if we stayed after that.  I imagine the cost of starting from scratch would be considerable these days as well.

[RANGERS]

An excellent view of the situation if I may say so.  As I said earlier wages for driving a truck these days are nowhere near what they used to be in the 1970's and 1980's.  Tendering for contracts is usually a race to the bottom so the money left for wages suffers.

 

Your point about the skill of the driver and safety is well made as well but reminds me of a topic often discussed when I was on the buses.  We drove arguably the most precious cargo about all day long.  Those same children, partners and relatives.  On a double decker that is just short of 100 people and for that most are paid just above the minimum wage for such a massive responsibility.  Actually Public Service is usually paid more than Private Hire so that coach on the motorway driving for hours on end is highly likely driven by someone earning basic wage.

 

I actually don't know the cost of obtaining a PCV licence as my one was paid for by the Company with an agreement that we paid back £1000 over the first year (I think) and it was repaid to us if we stayed after that.  I imagine the cost of starting from scratch would be considerable these days as well.

 

I'd entirely agree about the status of PCV drivers, the cost of obtaining a licence from a basic car licence to the full D+E is around £2,500 but the pay rates outside of London are often around £8-8.50 an hour and yes, the private hire sector is at the lower end of the scale. The shortage of drivers there is no less, probably even worse than the LGV industry but the conditions are often much worse with the seasonality of touring and short school terms dictating long hours when there is work and no guarantee of any when there isn't.

 

School contracts underpin many coach operations but such are the rates paid by hard pressed local authorities, the only way it can be made to pay is with a "dads army" of drivers who are part-time, paid a couple of hours morning and night and laid off in the middle of the day, often retired and happy to work that pattern.. That works to a degree, and I don't question their skill or safety as many are among the best on the road, but it calls into question how society values its children.

[chriswright03]

I know at my old depot the answer whenever I asked the Union members what they wanted as a pay rise was always £10 an hour.  That was 3 years ago and they only managed that last year.  I know also from my Ex Union colleagues that they are having a Branch meeting today about pay talks and I very much doubt they will be on more that £10.50 after a pay deal.

 

I left there as I had a repetitive strain injury from constantly using my right arm for the handbrake and doors and it showed no signs of improvement. I immediately started at a Private Hire company doing as you say school contracts in a mini bus hence no problem with the arm.  I occasionally did Private Hire in a coach and my wage at that time was the national  minimum.  OK for me as I have my Police pension but for everyone else it was a struggle and those that were eligible would be on tax credits I guess.

 

For the responsibility that comes with the job the wage is very poor and as a result the turn over of staff is huge with people leaving to do something else less stressful, more money or not getting up at stupid o clock. 

[highpeakman]

I can't help but think the view that training is too expensive is a perception based on an incomplete picture..

 

According to one of my training colleagues, the average cost of obtaining a class 1, C+E licence for a driver with no 7.5t entitlement is circa £4000, that includes the training, medical and tests for each subsequent stage. That takes a driver from a car to the heaviest, largest and with some loads, by far the most valuable vehicles on our roads. Those roads are shared by everyones wives, kids; brothers, sisters; mums, dads, Uncle Tom Cobley and all. Their safety is dependent on the skill of that driver, what price on that? In reality, the cost of training is fairly modest.

 

However, take the cost in relation to earning capacity, and it could be argued there is a discrepancy. We all benefit from the highly competitive nature of the haulage industry, no two ways about it, it's dog eat dog, the low costs filter through to every single thing you buy in the shops and the result is driver's pay rates which nowhere near reflect the level of responsibility they carry, remember again, every road user's safety is dependent on their skill. The cost of training, which until fairly recently was viewed as being the sole responsibility of the prospective trucker, takes a significant proportion of first year earnings, something many find hard to swallow. Thankfully most larger hauliers do now accept that if they want to have a sustainable business, they have to train drivers who don't have a licence and if they want to keep them, they have to pay them a decent living, little point in having fought for work to keep their 1000 lorries on the road if there's nobody to drive them.

 

There's a perception that Eastern European drivers are taking jobs from UK drivers, the truth is there's very few here who want to drive for a living, those Europeans wouldn't be there if there were more UK nationals who wanted to drive trucks. Aside from the unsocial hours, nights out, frequently poor facilities for drivers (especially women), pressure to meet delivery schedules against the spectre of congestion, not to mention the threat of substantial fines, for instance how many of us go to work each day with the threat of a £300 fine for a relatively minor misdemeanour (failure to move the tacho mode switch to rest when taking a break).

 

When pay rates stacking shelves in supermarkets, which will pretty much guarantee you'll be in your own bed every night and don't cost you a bean if you make a mistake, are comparable with a professional trucker who will probably have paid several thousand pounds for his licence, who'd be a trucker?

 

Just to clarify my comment: I was making the point that the cost of getting an HGV licence made it difficult for many people who would like to make it a career.

 

That is not the same as saying that the training to the required standard is not worth the the money. I certainly do accept that the training is worth the cost. I also accept that we require drivers of the highest standard and, as I said in my earlier post, most drivers already achieve that. It is just about how we find the money to train the drivers to that high standard.

 

In our case my son already had a part time job which he could not afford to lose and, if he took a week off from that to do the training he may well have lost it - not fair or legal (probably) but realistic. He definately would have lost his weeks wages and when that was added to the cost of the course, medical, etc. plus either travel or local accomodation (there was no course nearby) then it all became very difficult. The solution which I had hoped for was that there might have been some form of scheme of training/apprenticeship from transport companies (or even government assistance) to help defray those costs in some way. Perhaps even a company/government loan to be paid back when earning (like University - why not also with other occupations?).

 

I guess the answer is the same whatever scheme you look at - drivers struggle to pay for training, companies struggle to pay for training of drivers and the government doesn't like paying for such things.

Edited December 17, 2017 by highpeakman

[RANGERS]

Just to clarify my comment: I was making the point that the cost of getting an HGV licence made it difficult for many people who would like to make it a career.

 

That is not the same as saying that the training to the required standard is not worth the the money. I certainly do accept that the training is worth the cost. I also accept that we require drivers of the highest standard and, as I said in my earlier post, most drivers already achieve that. It is just about how we find the money to train the drivers to that high standard.

 

In our case my son already had a part time job which he could not afford to lose and, if he took a week off from that to do the training he may well have lost it - not fair or legal (probably) but realistic. He definately would have lost his weeks wages and when that was added to the cost of the course, medical, etc. plus either travel or local accomodation (there was no course nearby) then it all became very difficult. The solution which I had hoped for was that there might have been some form of scheme of training/apprenticeship from transport companies (or even government assistance) to help defray those costs in some way. Perhaps even a government loan to be paid back when earning (like University - why not also with other occupations?).

 

I guess the answer is the same whatever scheme you look at - drivers struggle to pay for training, companies struggle to pay for training of drivers and the government doesn't like paying for such things.

 

I do sympathise with your son, the situation is such that training for any vocation is largely privately funded, either by the trainee or the employer and in the transport industry, the view is that drivers (employees in general, try finding a certified transport manager) should just appear when they're needed. The endless discussions I've had with employers bemoaning the lack of drivers, engineers or managers and when you ask what they do about training, they look at you like you've sworn at them!

[duncan]

the big difference is that a employer paying for the training gets tax relief on the cost, the individual (paying for the training to put him in the position to get the job) doesn't

[RANGERS]

the big difference is that a employer paying for the training gets tax relief on the cost, the individual (paying for the training to put him in the position to get the job) doesn't

 

And also no VAT to pay, unlike the individual.

[PatB]

I do sympathise with your son, the situation is such that training for any vocation is largely privately funded, either by the trainee or the employer and in the transport industry, the view is that drivers (employees in general, try finding a certified transport manager) should just appear when they're needed. The endless discussions I've had with employers bemoaning the lack of drivers, engineers or managers and when you ask what they do about training, they look at you like you've sworn at them!

 

It's not just in the UK. Here in Oz I've sat in meetings in which representatives of the transport industry have bemoaned the difficulty of finding good drivers. It's really made me want to grab them by the collective throat and yell "Well, what do you expect when you haven't been making any for the past 30 years you bunch of mercenary parasites!?". Doing so as a Public Servant, though, is apt to get you a severe talking to from one of the scarier members of the Minister's staff so I never did .

[Reorte]

AFAICT it's a wider problem than just the transport industry, businesses expecting ready-made pre-packaged employees to be available for order on demand rather than having to do the training they need.

[Coryton]

AFAICT it's a wider problem than just the transport industry, businesses expecting ready-made pre-packaged employees to be available for order on demand rather than having to do the training they need.

 

It's not clear to me how much an individual business can do.

 

In a harshly competitive, race-to-the-bottom world, there are many areas when no matter how much a business might want to do the right thing, if they do they will just end up being undercut by the rest.

 

And there is also a limit to how much companies can try to work together to improve matters without ending up in trouble for price-fixing.

 

Didn't something like that happen when supermarkets tried to give dairy farmers a better deal? (Though as I don't know the details quite possibly I've fallen for propaganda on that one).

[Reorte]

It's not clear to me how much an individual business can do.

 

In a harshly competitive, race-to-the-bottom world, there are many areas when no matter how much a business might want to do the right thing, if they do they will just end up being undercut by the rest.

 

And there is also a limit to how much companies can try to work together to improve matters without ending up in trouble for price-fixing.

 

Didn't something like that happen when supermarkets tried to give dairy farmers a better deal? (Though as I don't know the details quite possibly I've fallen for propaganda on that one).

A very fair point. Wish I knew what the answer is! It all sounds rather short-termist but there's no point in having long term plans if you can't survive the short term.

[Coryton]

A very fair point. Wish I knew what the answer is! It all sounds rather short-termist but there's no point in having long term plans if you can't survive the short term.

 

I don't think "the market" is a terribly good mechanism for considering the long term.

[chriswright03]

Getting a little OT now but as part of the initial problem could well have been down to lack of training I think we may get away with it.

 

Problem with paying for training yourself to drive a lorry is that once you have passed your test you are going to have to find a Company that is prepared to take the risk of an inexperienced driver in one of their vehicles with a combined value of load and truck to be in the hundreds of thousands.  I know some that have left the buses and managed it but at least they came with the experience of driving something bigger than a car.

 

Most public service companies have their own training schools and all are constantly short staffed so it is far easier to get a job driving buses than trucks.

 

I would say the first time a new driver takes out a fully loaded truck worth who know what will be somewhat daunting.  I know the first time I drove a double decker was with passengers and that was quite scary for me but I hope not so much for them.

[Siberian Snooper]

I think that probably the most cost effective way to obtain  professional driving licence is in the armed services as you get put through a pretty good driving course and you get paid for it and by the time you leave your preferred service, you have some experience as well. I would say that a good third of the drivers I worked with were ex services and most of the rest and I include myself, were on government retraining schemes. This was back in the mid '90s, I think the goal posts moved not long after I got a job. I think that the biggest reason for a high turnover of staff is the anti- social hours and the constant roster changes. As far as private hire / coach drivers are concerned is that the company pays carp wages, as you are expected to make it up in tips, this may have been the case in days of yore, but these days, I think that the tipping culture has pretty much disappeared, plus  the ability to do a little extra has gone with the advent of the changes to the driving hours and tacho  regulations.

[Coryton]

I think that probably the most cost effective way to obtain  professional driving licence is in the armed services as you get put through a pretty good driving course and you get paid for it and by the time you leave your preferred service, you have some experience as well. I would say that a good third of the drivers I worked with were ex services and most of the rest and I include myself, were on government retraining schemes. This was back in the mid '90s, I think the goal posts moved not long after I got a job. I think that the biggest reason for a high turnover of staff is the anti- social hours and the constant roster changes. As far as private hire / coach drivers are concerned is that the company pays carp wages, as you are expected to make it up in tips, this may have been the case in days of yore, but these days, I think that the tipping culture has pretty much disappeared, plus  the ability to do a little extra has gone with the advent of the changes to the driving hours and tacho  regulations.

 

From what I've heard, the tipping culture is very much alive and well on coach holidays.

 

I know someone who joined the TA just to get their driving license. Then left.

Edited December 18, 2017 by Coryton

[duncan]

All very well if you pass the medical, eg eyesight !

[Siberian Snooper]

From what I've heard, the tipping culture is very much alive and well on coach holidays.

 

I know someone who joined the TA just to get their driving license. Then left.

 

From what I gather it's only the older generation that tip and then only what they can afford, a lot are on state pensions, so only a quid or so. Very few tip on day trips these days and the perks of organising additions to the itinerary, where the driver got kick backs from the venue have also more or less disappeared.

[F-UnitMad]

 

Problem with paying for training yourself to drive a lorry is that once you have passed your test you are going to have to find a Company that is prepared to take the risk of an inexperienced driver in one of their vehicles with a combined value of load and truck to be in the hundreds of thousands.

Years ago, that was true. Despite passing my Class 1 first go, I had to drive rigids (class 3) for 2 years without damaging one before they allowed me in an Artic, & even then my first few runs were locals.

But nowadays Companies are desperate, & that's no longer the case. To illustrate:- A visiting driver held up the whole of our yard one night a few years ago, as he spent 15 minutes getting nowhere close to putting his fully-loaded Scania 44-ton truck on a loading bay. I was the Yard Shunter that night & eventually had to do the reverse for him. "You make it look so easy - I only passed my test last Friday!" was his comment to me. It was a Wednesday night - his third day on the job.

I replied that when he'd done it for 20 years, he'd make it look easy too.

 

 

Edited December 18, 2017 by F-UnitMad

[Coryton]

From what I gather it's only the older generation that tip and then only what they can afford, a lot are on state pensions, so only a quid or so. Very few tip on day trips these days and the perks of organising additions to the itinerary, where the driver got kick backs from the venue have also more or less disappeared.

 

I expect you're right about it being the older generation....and also about day trips.

 

But for longer trips I believe they still do quite nicely, especially if somehow not all of it gets reported to the tax man.

 

These trips are probably on the pricey side for those struggling on just the state pension.

[chriswright03]

All very well if you pass the medical, eg eyesight !

Which is why I no longer drive PCV's having been diagnosed with Glaucoma.

 

I miss it and had I not had to surrender my PCV licence I would still be doing it.  My job was basically taking kids of all ages via a mini bus to schools in Alford, Lincs.  Odd occasions I would be on a different run but the Alford one would be my normal one.  It showed me that the saying about old dogs and new tricks was wrong though.  I learnt to filter out the inane dribble spouting from the same kids on the same journey every day so even though it was like Groundhog day I was in a little world of my own.

 

I did a number of coach day trips and whilst some tips were received it certainly would not be sufficient to boost poor earnings.

 

When I left the bus world after a boring time doing nothing I found a job in Funeral Services.  So still transporting people about but they moaned less (thankfully).

[cheesysmith]

Which is why I no longer drive PCV's having been diagnosed with Glaucoma.

 

I miss it and had I not had to surrender my PCV licence I would still be doing it.  My job was basically taking kids of all ages via a mini bus to schools in Alford, Lincs.  Odd occasions I would be on a different run but the Alford one would be my normal one.  It showed me that the saying about old dogs and new tricks was wrong though.  I learnt to filter out the inane dribble spouting from the same kids on the same journey every day so even though it was like Groundhog day I was in a little world of my own.

 

I did a number of coach day trips and whilst some tips were received it certainly would not be sufficient to boost poor earnings.

 

When I left the bus world after a boring time doing nothing I found a job in Funeral Services.  So still transporting people about but they moaned less (thankfully).

 

But the cargo is no longer self loading

[chriswright03]

Indeed but sometime self unloading.

 

https://www.aol.co.uk/cars/2017/12/07/terrified-motorist-films-a-body-bag-flying-out-of-hearse/?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl1%7Cdl-headline&pLid=45127426_uk

 

Apologies for anyone who does not have a dark sense of humour.

[SRman]

...

 

When I left the bus world after a boring time doing nothing I found a job in Funeral Services.  So still transporting people about but they moaned less (thankfully).

 

 

You might enjoy Eric Sykes mostly silent "Mr H is Late" - one copy of it is here on Youtube, but there are others of the same thing (quality may vary, so look around to find the best one): https://youtu.be/F48xci7h2PE

[PatB]

Indeed but sometime self unloading.

 

https://www.aol.co.uk/cars/2017/12/07/terrified-motorist-films-a-body-bag-flying-out-of-hearse/?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl1%7Cdl-headline&pLid=45127426_uk

 

Apologies for anyone who does not have a dark sense of humour.

 

Road luge .

[Andy Louch]

Not sure if youve seen this one?

 

 

 

"A double-decker bus roof was torn off when it passed under a low railway bridge. The top deck was "completely removed" when it went through the tunnel in Bournville Lane, Birmingham, according to a paramedic who attended".

 

 

 

Full story at: https://www.bbc.co.uk/search?q=bridge++bournville&sa_f=search-product&scope=

 

If it's the bridge I'm thinking about in Bournville Lane, it has been a 'hazard' since I was a kid in the region over 50 years ago! In fact, the regular bus services have always had to be 'single-deckers' since it was known by all drivers (obviously not!!) and not being high enough to allow double-deckers to pass. 

Looking at the damage, the driver tried to pass through at speed!!