Bridge bashing

[Andy Louch]

Not sure if youve seen this one?

 

 

 

"A double-decker bus roof was torn off when it passed under a low railway bridge. The top deck was "completely removed" when it went through the tunnel in Bournville Lane, Birmingham, according to a paramedic who attended".

 

 

 

Full story at: https://www.bbc.co.uk/search?q=bridge++bournville&sa_f=search-product&scope=

 

If it's the bridge I'm thinking about in Bournville Lane, it has been a 'hazard' since I was a kid in the region over 50 years ago! In fact, the regular bus services have always had to be 'single-deckers' since it was known by all drivers (obviously not!!) and not being high enough to allow double-deckers to pass. 

Looking at the damage, the driver tried to pass through at speed!!

 

 

Just noted the advert on the side of the bus....

[chriswright03]

An Ex colleague of mine was diverted away from the bus station by the Police one day.  I seem to recall there was a 'jumper' on a roof somewhere threatening to descend!  So having been told by the officer to go down this road the driver started to think he was going to be late, where to go to get back to the bus station and any number of other things that crop up when you are suddenly removed from a routine.  He could hear the passengers moaning about the diversion and about being late getting into town.

 

As he was driving down this road trying to think of all this stuff and approaching a railway bridge he suddenly realised I am in a double decker and it won't go under there!  Luckily he stopped without the bus making contact.  Questions were asked like should the Police divert a vehicle down a road where it cannot go?  Of course in the end it is down to the driver to know what he is driving and to deal with it accordingly taking everything into consideration.

 

It is quite normal to drive both singles and doubles in one shift or even one half of a shift so therefore quite easily to forget momentarily when you are distracted what you are in.  From the moment he was diverted to the moment he stopped he would have had literally seconds to sort it all out and luckily in the very last second he did but..............................

 

As the driver it would have been his fault and an incident like above could well have occurred.  It only takes a momentary lapse of concentration to wreak havoc.

[Coryton]

 

As the driver it would have been his fault and an incident like above could well have occurred.  It only takes a momentary lapse of concentration to wreak havoc.

 

I suspect that this is the sort of thing that in the airline (and maybe rail?) industry would result in some serious thought about the psychological factors, resulting perhaps in a recommendation that drivers never switch between single and double deck buses in a shift, or perhaps keep to one type of bus for a period of days. Maybe they would recommend ways of making the cab environment significantly different so that it's harder to forget.

 

But of course there's none of this - bus drivers are just expected to get on with it and do the right thing and it's a credit to them that almost all of the time they do.

[F-UnitMad]

I recall an incident between Stafford and Bushbury, minor road passes a large chemical works and ducks under the railway. On this particular occassion after a delay we were given permission to proceed at caution. Standing just past the bridge was a roofless double decker with an ad on the side "Learn to drive with xxxx buses" across the the back of the bus "Driver under instruction"!

A bit late, sorry, but I knew I had a picture of that incident somewhere...

 

 

Want to be in the driving seat?

 

...er, no thanks!!

[caradoc]

Not sure if youve seen this one?

 

 

 

"A double-decker bus roof was torn off when it passed under a low railway bridge. The top deck was "completely removed" when it went through the tunnel in Bournville Lane, Birmingham, according to a paramedic who attended".

 

 

 

Full story at: https://www.bbc.co.uk/search?q=bridge++bournville&sa_f=search-product&scope=

 

If it's the bridge I'm thinking about in Bournville Lane, it has been a 'hazard' since I was a kid in the region over 50 years ago! In fact, the regular bus services have always had to be 'single-deckers' since it was known by all drivers (obviously not!!) and not being high enough to allow double-deckers to pass. 

Looking at the damage, the driver tried to pass through at speed!!

 

Thankfully no-one was killed in this incident, but I find the slightly jokey way the media report such incidents rather concerning; A similar bus/bridge crash at West Street Glasgow, in 1994, resulted in the deaths of five people, three of them children. How long before it happens again ?

[RJS1977]

Quite. I've heard a story of a driver who went down the wrong route in error, and on realising his mistake tried to cut down some tight side streets to get back on the correct one. Taking one particularly tight corner, the front wheels went over the doorstep of a house and he wound up with the middle of the bus grounded on the step and both wheels on that side out of contact with the road!

[RJS1977]

I suspect that this is the sort of thing that in the airline (and maybe rail?) industry would result in some serious thought about the psychological factors, resulting perhaps in a recommendation that drivers never switch between single and double deck buses in a shift, or perhaps keep to one type of bus for a period of days. Maybe they would recommend ways of making the cab environment significantly different so that it's harder to forget.

 

But of course there's none of this - bus drivers are just expected to get on with it and do the right thing and it's a credit to them that almost all of the time they do.

 

Agreed. Ultimately there's little difference between forgetting the height of your vehicle and forgetting which direction you're driving your tram but the approach by industry/Government is completely different..

Edited December 21, 2017 by RJS1977

[Andy Louch]

One thing I find interesting in both incidents; the bus roof etc. has been completely 'wiped off' - not sure on the integral strength of bus upper decks etc. however, I assume that the driver would hear the horrible crunching sounds and realise what was going on? In which case they would stop and then decide it was probably better to carry on rather than try to reverse? Any thoughts from those more knowledgeable please?

My only experience was when I witnessed a brand new Leyland Atlantean dropped onto the quayside whilst we were loading as cargo for Basrah! (About 1978!!) It fell about 20m and was pretty much destroyed. A good lesson learned that you should never walk under a suspended load!!

[Coryton]

Agreed. Ultimately there's little difference between forgetting the height of your vehicle and forgetting which direction you're driving your tram but the approach by industry/Government is completely different..

 

And the approach by the media too. Buses don't seem to come under the "Public transport must be 100% safe no matter how much it costs" view that applies to trains and trams. A road accident is the fault of an individual driver; a rail accident is a failure to have implemented safety systems that make sure drivers can't make mistakes. Interesting.

 

Now I come to think of it, if this were treated in the same way as the rail or airline industry by now we'd have mandatory obstacle detecting radars on the front of all double deck buses.

[Coryton]

One thing I find interesting in both incidents; the bus roof etc. has been completely 'wiped off' - not sure on the integral strength of bus upper decks etc. however, I assume that the driver would hear the horrible crunching sounds and realise what was going on? In which case they would stop and then decide it was probably better to carry on rather than try to reverse? Any thoughts from those more knowledgeable please?

My only experience was when I witnessed a brand new Leyland Atlantean dropped onto the quayside whilst we were loading as cargo for Basrah! (About 1978!!) It fell about 20m and was pretty much destroyed. A good lesson learned that you should never walk under a suspended load!!

 

I presume that the times an entire roof is removed occur because the bus is going too fast to stop within a bus length, which when you think about it isn't all that surprising.

 

This summer Cardiff Bus ran an open top service at weekends. It went under a (rail) bridge that looked as if it could have rapidly converted a normal double decker to an open top. It felt as if you could almost touch the underside of the bridge while seated - an interesting experience. I'm a little surprised this was considered acceptable, but perhaps the clearance was more than it looked and someone standing on the upper deck just before it went under the bridge wouldn't have had their head taken off.

 

There were some interesting comments on another thread about the RAIB discovering the lack of collision protection on buses and failing to get anybody in a position to do anything about it interested.

[Reorte]

Now I come to think of it, if this were treated in the same way as the rail or airline industry by now we'd have mandatory obstacle detecting radars on the front of all double deck buses.

They might be insisted on if they were at all practical but they'd trigger so many false alarms as to be worse than useless (think of all the trees that have bus-shaped sides from being constantly scraped by them). Transponders on bridges or a GPS-based warning system might work.

[RJS1977]

Reading trams were always open top, because the old arched Reading West bridge precluded the use of enclosed double deckers. There was a sign on the bridge telling passengers to remain seated!

[melmerby]

 

 

If it's the bridge I'm thinking about in Bournville Lane, it has been a 'hazard' since I was a kid in the region over 50 years ago! In fact, the regular bus services have always had to be 'single-deckers' since it was known by all drivers (obviously not!!) and not being high enough to allow double-deckers to pass. 

Looking at the damage, the driver tried to pass through at speed!!

27 is the route. I used every day to get to school in the late 50s/early 60s

 

As it is more of a tunnel than a bridge a strike is not going to cause any damage as it carries the railway & the Worcester & Birmingham canal.

Canal end portal:

https://goo.gl/maps/nboci9AXhpx

 

Railway end portal:

https://goo.gl/maps/7J6qQKA2ycC2

 

Keith

[jim.snowdon]

And the approach by the media too. Buses don't seem to come under the "Public transport must be 100% safe no matter how much it costs" view that applies to trains and trams. A road accident is the fault of an individual driver; a rail accident is a failure to have implemented safety systems that make sure drivers can't make mistakes. Interesting.

 

Now I come to think of it, if this were treated in the same way as the rail or airline industry by now we'd have mandatory obstacle detecting radars on the front of all double deck buses.

As indeed we are now seeing in respect of the Croydon guided bus (sorry, tram) incident.

 

A tram is ultimately no different to a guided bus, and had that incident happened on a guided busway I have little doubt that it would have been treated differently.

 

Jim

[chriswright03]

I know far more about driving buses than how they are built but I can say there isn't a lot of strength in the upper deck.  In fact even the slightest of knocks by any of the drivers always left great big damage as the outer skin peals back with ease.  I do believe that most bridge strikes with deckers turn into open toppers for the seaside!

 

Tress are, as someone has also mentioned another nightmare and in Grimsby at one point we were instructed not to use one stop as drivers kept taking a top window out on an offending tree.  The Company told the Council they would not use the stop until they had the tree chopped.  The buses had a bull bar on the front upper deck (tree tw&tter) which helped a little but still upper windows were lost in battles with trees.

 

We did not have any bridge strikes while I was there aside from the near miss described earlier.  We did have a driver who as many did stopped at a small petrol station to use the loo.  Only difference being he drove onto the forecourt!  Managed to damage the bus and write off the canopy in the garage.  Sometimes drivers left their brains behind at the depot and while it would be easy to say they are only human some of them there were doubts about.

 

In respect of the driving school bus I can only say that the instructor was negligent in the extreme assuming of course it was being driven by a pupil and not a regular driver or fitter.

[rodent279]

They might be insisted on if they were at all practical but they'd trigger so many false alarms as to be worse than useless (think of all the trees that have bus-shaped sides from being constantly scraped by them). Transponders on bridges or a GPS-based warning system might work.

This will come, with 5G mobile networks & IoT.

[Reorte]

This will come, with 5G mobile networks & IoT.

Can't see 5G mobile spreading much outside towns.

[Andy Louch]

27 is the route. I used every day to get to school in the late 50s/early 60s

 

As it is more of a tunnel than a bridge a strike is not going to cause any damage as it carries the railway & the Worcester & Birmingham canal.

Canal end portal:

https://goo.gl/maps/nboci9AXhpx

 

Railway end portal:

https://goo.gl/maps/7J6qQKA2ycC2

 

Keith

 

Ha ha, yes the good old 27 - me too!! Were you at Bournville Tech? Apologies for 'topic drift'...

[Coryton]

They might be insisted on if they were at all practical but they'd trigger so many false alarms as to be worse than useless (think of all the trees that have bus-shaped sides from being constantly scraped by them). Transponders on bridges or a GPS-based warning system might work.

 

It would certainly need to be fairly sophisticated. And getting something that worked far enough out that you had time to brake would be tricky too.

 

However, given that we now have autonomous cars, I find it very hard to believe that something suitable couldn't be developed if there was sufficient will to do so.

[rodent279]

Can't see 5G mobile spreading much outside towns.

Oh it will. Maybe not so much the new 5G RAN, but IoT services don't have to be on the back of 5G RAN, they can use 4G if needed, which is gradually overhauling 3G in terms of coverage footprint. 3G will eventually go, data services will be on the 4G network.

[Edwin_m]

You could do it with a simple GPS location system that is programmed to sound an alarm in specific locations (eg the approach to all low bridges). 

[Reorte]

You could do it with a simple GPS location system that is programmed to sound an alarm in specific locations (eg the approach to all low bridges). 

GPS has already been mentioned in this thread wrt lorries bashing bridges. Such GPS systems already exist (I don't know the details; presumably they route find to avoid low bridges, I don't know if they give a warning if the route is ignored) but aren't as widely used as would be ideal because they're more expensive than car ones.

[chriswright03]

GPS has also been mentioned in the thread about the Washington rail crash and stated it is not reliable enough.  In fairness on most Public Service routes for buses there 'should' be no need as driver knowledge should rule BUT evidence shows it can go wrong.  With the skip truck at the start of this thread (oh that is how it started ) the driver would unlikely have local knowledge and maybe was using a Sat Nav not sufficient for his needs or maybe his MkI eyeball needs recalibrating.

[Reorte]

GPS isn't reliable enough for knowing with certainty which line a train is on, so cannot be relied upon in that sort of railway context. That's not quite the same situation where road vehicles and route plannings or warnings are concerned; I'd argue that the level of accuracy might well be essential for use in that kind of railway application, but isn't for avoiding bridge strikes, whether through route planning or warnings. And even if it didn't get it right 100% of the time it would still be a big improvement (whereas relying on it on the railway might result in more mistakes than currently happen).

[chriswright03]

Going off at a tangent again but still GPS.  I recall using one when out walking in The Lakes and it would come up with accurate to within 10' or something.  In the fog on top of a mountain that can lead into the odd problem or two!

 

In fact I seem to recall reading an article in a walking magazine entitled "Death by GPS".