OO gauge GWR Mogul and Prairie

[Oldddudders]

3 minutes ago, melmerby said:

No doubt cribbed from RCTS part nine.

Unkind. David is a sincere sort of chap. After all, he founded the Railway Children charity to help street urchins in India and elsewhere. Sometime SM at Crewkerne, I think, and a very senior BR manager when I briefly worked with him. 

[melmerby]

2 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Unkind. David is a sincere sort of chap. After all, he founded the Railway Children charity to help street urchins in India and elsewhere. Sometime SM at Crewkerne, I think, and a very senior BR manager when I briefly worked with him. 

The information was already in print, in what's considered the definitive works. Why does anyone need to do that bit again?

I thought that was how most information rich books come about these days, collating the information from various already published works.

I can't see there is anything wrong in doing that.

[Neal Ball]

2 hours ago, Chuffer Davies said:

Hi Neal,

I think you will find that 'the book' is actually a series of paperbacks which many consider to be the definitive reference for Great Western modellers.  They are:  The Locomotives of the Great Western Railway series.  The one that the moguls appear in is:

 

There is a table of allocations which includes a column for when outside steam pipes were fitted to specific locomotives.

 

The books are long out of print but can usually be obtained 2nd hand from most specialist railway book suppliers.

 

Frank

Thanks Frank, I have a couple of these books..... but don’t very often pick them up, favouring the more recent coffee table style photo books.

 

I will go and look up the Reading allocated ones and order plates accordingly.

 

2 hours ago, Harlequin said:

 

Hi Neal,

 

The book that Clearwater and I were referring to is, "Great Western Moguls & Prairies" by David Maidment, published by Pen & Sword.

 

I also have this one thanks Phil.

 

Thanks very much guys for all the information it’s been very useful.

[Miss Prism]

Neal:

https://www.brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=class&id=126002&type=S&page=mods

 

[Harlequin]

26 minutes ago, melmerby said:

No doubt cribbed from RCTS part nine.

 

12 minutes ago, melmerby said:

The information was already in print, in what's considered the definitive works. Why does anyone need to do that bit again?

I thought that was how most information rich books come about these days, collating the information from various already published works.

I can't see there is anything wrong in doing that.

 

It's a good book that collects information together in a very accessible form, including new material (the author's personal experience of many of the classes) and notes about which are preserved where.

The RCTS publications are listed in the Bibliography (as Clearwater pointed out to me.)

 

[Marshall5]

4 hours ago, Neal Ball said:

There have been various comments about outside steam pipes throughout the thread. People refer to a book, to shew when these were fitted etc.

 

Can someone advise which book they are talking about please. 
 

A few moguls were based at Reading in the 1930’s and I intend to renumber mine to suit. But need the correct reference.

 

Thanks, Neal.

I certainly referred to the information in my copy of David Andrews' "Churchward 2-6-0's' in response to a question in this thread several weeks ago.  If you let me know which Moguls are of interest I'll happily look up the dates for you.

Cheers,

Ray.

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

No doubt cribbed from RCTS part nine.

Apart from Olddudders response about David Maidment, who I also knew and respected, one thing you need to remember is that the RCTS series is now pretty long in the tooth and for a start you also need to check part 13 for errata and additional information.  Similarly the RCTS booklets while good on information (up to the date they were last revised and republished) are very poor on illustrations.  In fact having not long since been looking at various details on one GWR Class there were definitely certain things which the RCTS booklet did not cover and there was one which could only be tentatively dated from  good quality photos.

 

Overall I'm sure that many subsequent authors have used the RCTS booklets as source information but that does not mean that some of them haven't taken the opportunity to add further information.  

Edited December 31, 2020 by The Stationmaster
typo

[melmerby]

Sorry so many seemed to be upset.

It wasn't meant as a criticism of someone for using that info as I pointed out in the second post as that's how I expect many books to be these days.

The information isn't often available first hand so re-compiling in different forms brings new perspectives to a subject.

 

8 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

 one thing you need to remember is that the RCTS series is now pretty long in the tooth and for a start you also need to check part 13 for errata and additional information.

 

BTW Part 14 also has a few more updates.

[boxbrownie]

16 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 

Remind me - how much was a Romford 40:1 gear set back in the day? A few bob?

 

Yes, back in the 70’s when a new semi 2 bedroom house in the SE was £10K..........

[Neal Ball]

3 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

Neal:

https://www.brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=class&id=126002&type=S&page=mods

 

 

Thanks @Miss Prism- although that has added to my confusion!

 

I happily sought my locos from the Wild Swan London Engine sheds book - based on their notes at the back for 1936 allocations and found 6 locos based at Reading. Took out outside steam pipes ones and checked on Fox Transfers to check availability.....

 

Then looking at the BR database, it looks as if all my choices / depot allocations were different.

 

In the end I am settling on an OOC based loco, one that Fox do the cab side numbers for..... however as its in a different Lot number, I need to do more checking.

 

Thanks to everyone who has replied. I need to do more research and then see if I can find a photo of said loco.

 

Happy New Year guys.

[JST]

I have just read the CVs for my factory fitted version which IMHO ruins perfectly out of the box. The only CVs I have changed are the address and CV3 to slow down the acceleration rate.

 

 

The Mogul will usually be hauling 4 coaches or light freight on my branch line  but here is a video of her pulling away with ten coaches (my normal express number) on the mainline:-

 

 

 

...and here is a short clip of her running at 1 mph with the ten coaches. Others may not see this as perfect but for me it will do!

 

 

 

 

 

[Miss Prism]

I can't point to a specific instance of a loco reverting from outside-piped back to inside-piped, but there were a fair number of Standard 4 boilers that had smokebox patches previously used on outside-piped locos, so I presume it might have happened. (The Standard 4 boilers were however used on other classes as well.)

 

[melmerby]

6 minutes ago, JST said:

I have just read the CVs for my factory fitted version which IMHO ruins perfectly out of the box. The only CVs I have changed are the address and CV3 to slow down the acceleration rate.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi, thanks for that info.

 

Any chance of posting some of the other CVs such as those in the 50s?

I notice some of those above are different to that shown in DecoderPro as default.

 

BTW what do you read the CVs with?

[JST]

No problem, will do. I read decoders with Railmaster Pro via the Hornby Elite.

[JST]

Oops! Posted in error!

Edited December 31, 2020 by JST

[melmerby]

44 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

I can't point to a specific instance of a loco reverting from outside-piped back to inside-piped, but there were a fair number of Standard 4 boilers that had smokebox patches previously used on outside-piped locos, so I presume it might have happened. (The Standard 4 boilers were however used on other classes as well.)

 

Would there be any reason to go back to inside piped?

I assume outside pipes were a result of the redesigned cylinder block, so to me it seems likely once the earlier type had been removed they would have been scrapped, rather than refurbished.

Is that a reasonable assumption?

[JST]

Melmerby,

 

Here are some more CVs (up to 094) which may or may not be of help. Sorry about the clunky way of doing it but the Dell Windows 10 computer on which I run Railmaster is in the railway loft and my Mac is here in the office so I just took photos of the Dell screen.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[melmerby]

Just the job, thanks.

I can compare them with those I have set for mine using the MX618N18 and see whether I can improve the performance.

To be honest it isn't bad but not as good as e.g. the Hornby Prairie, which other than being a bit of a lightweight runs very nicely.

 

[melmerby]

Just now, melmerby said:

Just the job, thanks.

I can compare them with those I have set for mine using the MX618N18 and see whether I can improve the performance.

To be honest the Dapol Mogul isn't bad but not as good as e.g. the Hornby Prairie, which other than being a bit of a lightweight runs very nicely.

 

 

[MG 7305]

It is a must to have the RCTS GWR Locomotives series 1-14.  Every book on the subject published afterwards is firmly based on these but with added pretty pictures.   These volumes answer almost all questions about GWR locomotives unless such a question is number, date and allocation number specific which must can only be confirmed by dated specific records.  The inestimable value they provide is the background and cross reference information you glean from reading them.  Go on, you know you want to.

 

Best regards Julian

[melmerby]

53 minutes ago, MG 7305 said:

It is a must to have the RCTS GWR Locomotives series 1-14.  Every book on the subject published afterwards is firmly based on these but with added pretty pictures.   These volumes answer almost all questions about GWR locomotives unless such a question is number, date and allocation number specific which must can only be confirmed by dated specific records.  The inestimable value they provide is the background and cross reference information you glean from reading them.  Go on, you know you want to.

 

Best regards Julian

They are getting very expensive on the S/H market now.

 

I bought the first 9(?) when they were still in bookshops, courtesy of the OPC republishings.

The later ones apart from 13 I have had to buy from specialist booksellers and have been way over the cover prices.

My go to place for S/H railway books, Bookcase of Carlisle, have never had any AFAIK.

 

I would agree about the pictures in RCTS, they are way too small also the definition is not very good.( a consequence of the A5-ish size and the way they are printed to keep the cost reasonable)

Photos in large format books often taken from glass negatives in earlier times can be quite superb.

Edited December 31, 2020 by melmerby

[spamcan61]

1 hour ago, MG 7305 said:

It is a must to have the RCTS GWR Locomotives series 1-14.  Every book on the subject published afterwards is firmly based on these but with added pretty pictures.   These volumes answer almost all questions about GWR locomotives unless such a question is number, date and allocation number specific which must can only be confirmed by dated specific records.  The inestimable value they provide is the background and cross reference information you glean from reading them.  Go on, you know you want to.

 

Best regards Julian

A fair few copies of most volumes around of you cast your net wide enough:-

 

https://www.addall.com/SuperRare/UsedRare.cgi?author=Railway+Correspondence+and+Travel+Society&title=locomotives+of+the+great+western+railway&keyword=&isbn=&order=PRICE&ordering=ASC&binding=Any+Binding&min=&max=&exclude=&match=Y&dispCurr=GBP&timeout=15&store=ABAA&store=Alibris&store=Abebooks&store=AbebooksAU&store=AbebooksDE&store=AbebooksFR&store=AbebooksUK&store=Amazon&store=AmazonCA&store=AmazonUK&store=AmazonDE&store=AmazonFR&store=Antiqbook&store=Biblio&store=BiblioUK&store=Bibliophile&store=Bibliopoly&store=Booksandcollectibles&store=Ebay&store=EbayUK&store=EbayFR&store=LRB&store=ZVAB&via=classic

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, spamcan61 said:

A fair few copies of most volumes around of you cast your net wide enough:-

 

https://www.addall.com/SuperRare/UsedRare.cgi?author=Railway+Correspondence+and+Travel+Society&title=locomotives+of+the+great+western+railway&keyword=&isbn=&order=PRICE&ordering=ASC&binding=Any+Binding&min=&max=&exclude=&match=Y&dispCurr=GBP&timeout=15&store=ABAA&store=Alibris&store=Abebooks&store=AbebooksAU&store=AbebooksDE&store=AbebooksFR&store=AbebooksUK&store=Amazon&store=AmazonCA&store=AmazonUK&store=AmazonDE&store=AmazonFR&store=Antiqbook&store=Biblio&store=BiblioUK&store=Bibliophile&store=Bibliopoly&store=Booksandcollectibles&store=Ebay&store=EbayUK&store=EbayFR&store=LRB&store=ZVAB&via=classic

Some of the mint ones are quite expensive, the less than mint seem quite reasonable. I paid £40 & £32 for my two difficult to find ones the others only a few pounds each, quite a few were bought new at the published price

Looking at the publishing dates it took 42 years to complete! (1951-93)

 

Definitely worth having for everything about GWR engines. Even the war records of those taken into WD care

 

Edited December 31, 2020 by melmerby

[Les1952]

2 hours ago, melmerby said:

Some of the mint ones are quite expensive, the less than mint seem quite reasonable. I paid £40 & £32 for my two difficult to find ones the others only a few pounds each, quite a few were bought new at the published price

Looking at the publishing dates it took 42 years to complete! (1951-93)

 

Definitely worth having for everything about GWR engines. Even the war records of those taken into WD care

 

 

I came to them after having collected a few of the RCTS LNER books, and found them more than a little disappointing.  True there is a lot of detail in them, but when you compare them with the LNER series you find out just how much is missing.  But there seems not to have been a GWR equivalent of Willie Yeadon.

 

Les

[melmerby]

15 hours ago, Les1952 said:

 

I came to them after having collected a few of the RCTS LNER books, and found them more than a little disappointing.  True there is a lot of detail in them, but when you compare them with the LNER series you find out just how much is missing.  But there seems not to have been a GWR equivalent of Willie Yeadon.

 

Les

Definitely more a collection of data with incidental photos.

I suppose it went with the austerity of the period when they were started. (1951)

These days they would no doubt be more pictures in a bigger format.

Maybe somebody could take on that task and re-publish them?

Problem is the internet has taken a lot of the market away for such specialist publications.