PenrithBeacon Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 But where are the actuals? If, using Bills definition to be an actual Modeller you need to model ‘actuals’, he clearly isn’t an actual manufacturer or producer. I can’t find actually find any on his web site that I can actually put a deposit on let alone buy or express an actual interest in. Therefore Bill Bedford by his own logic, isn’t a manufacturer or producer. Ludicrous! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted December 31, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 31, 2017 Ludicrous! Wasn't he a Roman in 'Up Pompei' Ludicrous Sextus ...IIRC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rope runner Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 This thread is dreadful and should be locked or certain posters given an ultimatum. Just my opinion. Paul A Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted December 31, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 31, 2017 You should have been on E4um. With an attitude like that you would have given up modelling completely. Funny you should mention E4um Bill - it was populated by a large number of navel gazing obnoxious individuals who did nothing to further modelling, they simply attempted to ridicule anyone who wasn't in their elite group (or clique) by posting all sorts of Clueless Lightweight Ars*y Guff while producing nothing themselves. The likes of E4um is best confined to history - despite the ridicule I received on there I was still a major contributor to a succesfull fast running P4 exhibition model and they are still building the same cra model they were putting up as "the best" all those years ago - it could have been good had the moderator not allowed the abusive posts to go unchecked, I wonder who that was ... 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted December 31, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 31, 2017 I'm going on dragons den to sell my idea of a business selling EOI's. I predict a steady 1000% margin with a return on investment within 14 seconds. Mind you maybe there is something admirable about the purist approach which eschews vulgar concepts such as delivering stuff to concentrate on the more noble work of designing things. After all it works for car manufacturers, the reason you'll never see a Porsche is because they have better things to do than fulfill orders. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted December 31, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 31, 2017 This thread is dreadful and should be locked or certain posters given an ultimatum. Just my opinion. Paul A What part is dreadful ? What ultimatum should be given and to whom, I ask as I can't see anything derogatory posted. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crosland Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 How can it be safer than walking into a shop and handing over cash, presenting a cheque or using a credit card? Online shopping is popular because it is convenient for some, suits the lazy and is often the cheapest option. I increasingly avoid online shopping because purchases have been delivered to the wrong address or claimed to be signed for when left outside (including at incorrect addresses). I have other reasons but those are outside the reason for this discussion. Its at least as safe and I would argue easier due in the main to the distance selling regulations. On-line shopping is weighted in favour of the consumer (as a supplier I have absolutely no problem with that), with no quibble returns, etc., ... If goods do not turn up, it's the suppliers responsibility to replace them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clearwater Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 Reading this thread (and I commented up top on how I thought it was an own goal for Bill) and some others (eg C&L), it strikes me that to be a successful small kit producer you need 1) knowledge of how to actually make the product whatever medium it takes rather than merely reproducing what someone else has created 2) a knowledge on how to, at the very least, maintain/update an ecommerce site 3) an understanding of how to market and interact with customers particularly in the physical/ecommerce overlap that is necessary for sole traders. As is frequently commented, Andrew at Wizard does a brilliant job with items coming usually by post within a day or so of ordering. Eileen’s Emporium too. Whilst not an exhaustive list of good service, I’ve found London Road very helpful - missing parts arriving by post within days or post show if not in stock at show. Equally, I’ve found the likes of SE Finecast very helpful albeit their website could be described as fairly basic. The power of the web is phenomenal even for small kit manufacturers. I brought some kits from David Geen at the Aylesbury show in September (indeed his presence was one of my reasons for going to that show). He remarked t me that he was blown away by the demand for his kits. I’m sure that demand was in part driven by knowledge of his pending retirement where that information had been propagated by sites such as this. Taking another small trader, Alan Buttler. He has an excellent product using 3D printing and provides a real presence at shows. Read his thread on here and look how he communicates with customers across instagram; Facebook etc as well as his website. If you order from him, you get regular email updates on progress. First rate service in my view. As far as I’m aware, whatever these successful people may think of their customers or potential custimers, they don’t question whether they are “actual modellers” which could be viewed as a pejorative statement. If you’re looking to sell to the public, you have to project a “how can I help” attitude not a “well you can’t buy from me unless you’ve passed an initiation test.” I think Bill has done the right thing by having an account on here to communicate with his potential customers but very much the wrong thing in getting sucked into a debate about the problems at another trader. I can’t see what upside there is for him in involving himself in that debate without risking his own reputation. David 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted December 31, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 31, 2017 Funny you should mention E4um Bill - Is that still going ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted December 31, 2017 Author Share Posted December 31, 2017 Maybe I should have been more specific. On returning some defective Bill Bedford items to one vendor I was informed (possibly incorrectly) that BB still has input into the range that carries his name and that they were simply a reseller allowing BB more time to work on his own "stuff" by BB not having to waste time sorting out the mail order etc of high turnover items. Whilst it is none of my business what (if any) commercial arrangements exist between BB and resellers it would be convenient to know if the Bill Bedford range still has anything to do with Bill or not? I don't understand why this is at all important to anyone. The Bill Bedford range are mature products that are not likely to be changed in the foreseeable future, so knowing what my role is or is not in the production seems irrelevant. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted December 31, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 31, 2017 I have not implied that you in particular are brown-nosing, however there are others who do brown-nose despite being presented with clear facts in front of them Thanks for clarifying that, then. And to quote yourself "Oh dear" - do not assume that I am a Mr Oh dear, sorry if I got that wrong. I merely thought that giving you an 'honorific' was the polite thing to do, so apologies if I used the wrong one, I made an assumption on being statistically correct (the majority of folk on here being male) but came unstuck. No offence intended in that process. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted December 31, 2017 Author Share Posted December 31, 2017 Funny you should mention E4um Bill - it was populated by a large number of navel gazing obnoxious individuals who did nothing to further modelling, they simply attempted to ridicule anyone who wasn't in their elite group (or clique) by posting all sorts of Clueless Lightweight Ars*y Guff while producing nothing themselves. Much of the stuff on the CLAG website came from that 'elite' group. What came out was much more about ideas that could move the hobby on rather that repeatedly building the same layout in different guises. Some of the ideas worked, and have been accepted, others didn't, and and there are still some where we are waiting for the technology to catch up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 I thought I strayed into the world war 3 thread by accident. I think all should go and have a cold shower or even better go down the pub for a quite beer. Lets all agree to disagree, deal with those we choose to. Crowd fund if that's something we are interested in. But most of all do a bit of modelling 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted December 31, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 31, 2017 Is that still going ? Died a death - fortunately Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adriank Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 I don't understand why this is at all important to anyone. The Bill Bedford range are mature products that are not likely to be changed in the foreseeable future, so knowing what my role is or is not in the production seems irrelevant. Well it is important when you change the design of those products - in my opinion for the worse - and don't inform your resellers of the change so that they continue to advertise the previous version. Not only do you antagonise your customers but also your resellers who suddenly find themselves having to deal with irate customers. And when this is brought to your attention you invoke your usual response of the customer is always wrong. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted December 31, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 31, 2017 Captain I don't think you are attempting to defend the indefensible but I do see you as one of the ones criticising victims for the understandable tone of their posts. Please correct me if I am wrong. Hi Colin, You are correct in that I am not trying to defend the indefensible. I am also not criticising 'victims' for being frustrated and upset at not getting their goods (thinking about it, is 'victim' perhaps too strong a word, I've been in a similar position myself on more than one occasion, and never thought of myself as such, but no matter). What I am criticising is the fact that a small number of posters on both threads (who may or may not have actually ordered stuff from Coopercraft and not received it) have started to go beyond what I could consider 'justifiable frustration/irritation/upset' to something a bit darker. I am aware that Mr Dunn has refused offers of assistance and thus not helped himself, but there are usually two sides to every story, and given my conviction that mental health is quite possibly playing some part in all of this, I simply find the unbending indifference and apparent lack of the slightest hint of compassion on the part of those small number of posters to the plight of another human being experiencing such problems, difficult to accept. I'd be happy to revise my views if further evidence comes to light. Because he does not wish to be part of a good old fashioned RMWeb lynch mob. Craig's kind comment sums it up nicely. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted December 31, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 31, 2017 The snag is, cap'n, you are only making guesses as to what the problems are with Mr. Dunn. The fact is, many have tried to lead that particular horse to water, but we haven't been able to get him to drink It is now, maybe five or six years since this saga started, to start throwing in the salt. You're quite right, Raymw, I can only go on what I do know about the individual. But equally, whilst such facts of the case as are available are probably known to all on this thread, I don't think anyone else knows what's going on inside Mr Dunn's head either. As such, his critics are also making guesses as to his motivations and reasoning. Apart from having met him and talked with him in person on a few occasions, this case is not so dissimilar to another one some years ago, that I had more knowledge of. That individual was not in the same situation of owing customers money and not delivering on products as Paul Dunn is, but it was very clear to me at the time that there were mental health issues at play. But no two individuals are the same, of course. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted December 31, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 31, 2017 Maybe I am? Maybe I'm not? If I knew Bill's criteria for being a modeller, I may be able to make an educated guess? PeckettMedalling-025-Sm.jpg Will it ever run again???? Oh, that is brave of you! Is this one intended to have one of Gordon A's chassis under it, perhaps? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted December 31, 2017 Author Share Posted December 31, 2017 As far as I’m aware, whatever these successful people may think of their customers or potential custimers, they don’t question whether they are “actual modellers” which could be viewed as a pejorative statement. If you’re looking to sell to the public, you have to project a “how can I help” attitude not a “well you can’t buy from me unless you’ve passed an initiation test.” How can I put this? I accept that my customers are by definition modellers. However there are a number of people who have been critical of me who will never be a customer and I suspect the closest they will ever come to modelling is to open some boxes from China. I think Bill has done the right thing by having an account on here to communicate with his potential customers but very much the wrong thing in getting sucked into a debate about the problems at another trader. I can’t see what upside there is for him in involving himself in that debate without risking his own reputation. Thank you, but I'm well aware of my reputation and I can't see that expressing robust views here will change it very much. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted December 31, 2017 Author Share Posted December 31, 2017 Well it is important when you change the design of those products - in my opinion for the worse - and don't inform your resellers of the change so that they continue to advertise the previous version. Not only do you antagonise your customers but also your resellers who suddenly find themselves having to deal with irate customers. And when this is brought to your attention you invoke your usual response of the customer is always wrong. I really don't know what you are talking about - please explain. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted December 31, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 31, 2017 Died a death - fortunately Thanks. I asked as Bill links to it on his website but the link goes nowhere. Maybe it's a 'Zombie" website 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clearwater Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 How can I put this? I accept that my customers are by definition modellers. However there are a number of people who have been critical of me who will never be a customer and I suspect the closest they will ever come to modelling is to open some boxes from China. Thank you, but I'm well aware of my reputation and I can't see that expressing robust views here will change it very much. To be frank Bill, I didn't have much of an opinion one way or the other about you until I've seen you express yourself on this thread. I won't be alone in that view and not everyone is in a small modelling clique who is "aware of your reputation." As I said up the top of this thread, you have to ignore critical voices and in my post above, project a positive image. Alienating a potential market strikes me as a crazy thing to do. Surely shouldn't you be encouraging people to have a go at building stuff and not "just opening boxes"? There's a benefit for you if they do that as you will sell more! 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted December 31, 2017 Author Share Posted December 31, 2017 (edited) Thanks. I asked as Bill links to it on his website but the link goes nowhere. Maybe it's a 'Zombie" website Really? I couldn't find it, maybe you are still using an old cache? BTW the static pages are dated to 2017-07-15 and the dynamic ones to 2017-10-21. So the site is not quite dead yet. Edited December 31, 2017 by billbedford Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted December 31, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 31, 2017 Really? I couldn't find it, maybe you are still using an old cache? BTW the static pages are dated to 2017-07-15 and the dynamic ones to 2017-10-21. So the site is not quite dead yet. Wouldn't be the cache, I typed into Google 'E4um' E4um and the first listing was this page http://www.mousa.biz/lists.html © Copyright 2012, Bill Bedford. Last updated on Nov 12, 2014 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted December 31, 2017 Author Share Posted December 31, 2017 Wouldn't be the cache, I typed into Google 'E4um' E4um and the first listing was this page http://www.mousa.biz/lists.html © Copyright 2012, Bill Bedford. Last updated on Nov 12, 2014 Not any more. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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