Car park fire Liverpool

[stewartingram]

Part of the reason for the exemption of older vehicles from the MOT testing regime is the difficulty in drafting legislation that can encompass both modern and older vehicle technology. Legislation that covers modern braking systems on cars designed to exceed 100 mph would be a fail on older systems perfectly safe and adequate on the vehicle to which they are fitted. As the legislation evolves to encompass modern technology it starts to leave behind different, yet still safe systems.

 

Many examiners are unfamiliar with older vehicle systems and, as it stands, it is a bit of a lottery in finding a station which will do a test and then getting consistent results. One examiner, sticking strictly by the rules, will fail a vehicle whereas another will make an assessment and allowance for it’s age, and pass it.

 

The detail is as yet unclear but owners will still be able to submit their vehicles for an annual test. I have a vehicle which will be exempt next year. It is my intention to have it tested or checked over by a third party once a year.

 

The vehicle that caught fire in the Liverpool car park was a fairly modern Range Rover. Vehicle fires happen on near new cars, the scope of this particular incident is rare.

 

So please, let’s not start a panic over the idea of MOT exempt, older vehicles spontaneously combusting on a routine basis.

 

.

 

Modern cars are so much more complex than older ones, I would say the potential for fire is thus greater (though still small).

My everyday car is a Rover 75. VERY complex electrically, though as a home mechanic with fantastic backup from an enthusiastic owners club, I manage ok. Not for the faint hearted though!. Just to illustrate, the car has a small "box" at the rh end of the bottom of the dashboard. This contains the lighting switches (side/head/fog lights, etc). If it goes faulty can you replace it with another? No. A replacement won't work unless you connect up the bespoke Rover computer (T4) and program it. (We have some within the club btw). Due to its position, IF there is a leak of water down the windscreen pillar (say a leaking rubber), which is rare - but every car design will get it sometime, the box can get wet internally. This WILL lead to a fire (we have known cars go up because of this). Only way to then stop it is to lift the bonnet (the catch is just below the said box), & undo the battery terminals. Unlikely to get done quick enough to save the car. I wouldn't mind betting some Range Rover models have the same unit too.

 

Stewart

Edited January 2, 2018 by stewartingram

[Fat Controller]

The steel reinforcing has expanded with the heat and shattered the concrete.

'Spalling'

[Dunsignalling]

So you think that every car running round that has a valid MOT is safe then?  An MOT 'if' done properly states that the car was safe at that time but it does not say it is going to be for the next year or that the day after someone isn't going to fit a radio badly.  I expect the owners of 'most' classic cars are far more likely to make sure their pride and joy is maintained to a higher standard than some of the cars being driven about.  Don't forget to the Government anything over 10 years old is a banger now and should be scrapped.

And, of course, the newer the car, the more it dependent it is upon electrical wizardry (in some cases, there is nothing else).

 

I gather that, in some, the electrics work on a similar basis to DCC so that everything becomes and remains live whenever a key-holder is within range, awaiting the computer's instruction to activate individual items. At least, on a "banger" when something is switched off it really is off.

 

One wag suggested there is only one type of car made nowadays, the MG TW (More-To-Go-Wrong) and that very little that is made today will remain functional long enough to wear out mechanically or succumb to rust. .

 

John

Edited January 2, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[APOLLO]

My blood ran cold the other day watching one of those traffic police programmes in which an almost brand new Range Rover with electronic everything had immobilised itself, solidly in gear so that it couldn't even be pushed/towed clear, in the third lane of a motorway..................   

 

Didn't a brand new class 800 did the same the other week on the GW main line ?

 

Brit15

[Dunsignalling]

Didn't a brand new class 800 did the same the other week on the GW main line ?

 

Brit15

But that at least had signals to protect it. The unfortunate woman in the Evoque had to bail out onto the central reservation and hope the Police would arrive before a high-speed pile-up occurred.

 

John

Edited January 2, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[melmerby]

 Whilst we don't have the corrosion problems of the UK, believe me that vehicles can deteriorate just as fast from every other cause.

Not a problem in the UK anymore.

Body protection is so good these days that everything else will fail first!

My last two vehicles I have had for ten years each both had non corroded bodyshells at that age and no visible signs of rust on the paintwork but the first had several mechanical problems and the second went in a diesel scrappage scheme.

 

Keith

[Bernard Lamb]

 

 

They don't just result in fires, either. My blood ran cold the other day watching one of those traffic police programmes in which an almost brand new Range Rover with electronic everything had immobilised itself, solidly in gear so that it couldn't even be pushed/towed clear, in the third lane of a motorway..................   

 

John

 

A friend of mine has a Range Rover.

He lives in Cologne but has to get it serviced in the UK as in Germany they are unable to check the computer systems.

He took it to the dedicated service centre for a few minor updates.

They did not have the software for certain checks and so had to connect with the factory.

It sat in the workshop for 16 hours while the computer ran through the systems.

The garage were furious as their workshop was blocked. My friend had to cancel and rebook his ferry.

The garage only charged him for the parts and an hours time as that was all it should have taken..

Modern cars are indeed complex. To the point that even the experts at the service centre did not have a clue as to how to diagnose the unseen problem without help from the factory.

As you point out John, once the electronics develop a fault everything stops working. My friend would have taken the car home and come back another time, but once the programme was running nobody wanted to risk stopping it, for fear that they might up everything.

Bernard

[Fat Controller]

Didn't a brand new class 800 did the same the other week on the GW main line ?

 

Brit15

In the days when Radio 4 had a regular transport programme, I remember one of the presenters road-testing the then-new Renault Espace. On the outside lane of the M25, he lost all electrics. Not only was the car immobilised, but the vehicle locked its doors and windows. He eventually got out by pushing out the sun-roof. All this was broadcast live, at least for the first few minutes; considering the circumstances, the language was quite restrained.

[stewartingram]

A friend of mine has a Range Rover.

He lives in Cologne but has to get it serviced in the UK as in Germany they are unable to check the computer systems.

He took it to the dedicated service centre for a few minor updates.

They did not have the software for certain checks and so had to connect with the factory.

It sat in the workshop for 16 hours while the computer ran through the systems.

The garage were furious as their workshop was blocked. My friend had to cancel and rebook his ferry.

The garage only charged him for the parts and an hours time as that was all it should have taken..

Modern cars are indeed complex. To the point that even the experts at the service centre did not have a clue as to how to diagnose the unseen problem without help from the factory.

As you point out John, once the electronics develop a fault everything stops working. My friend would have taken the car home and come back another time, but once the programme was running nobody wanted to risk stopping it, for fear that they might ###### up everything.

Bernard

As I said up there ^^ about my Rover 75. With the support of the enthusiasts in the owners club, we DO actually KNOW more than the dealers (and there are still some good ex-Rover men around) and have solved many problems from within the club., often at odds with the so-called experts which we prove wrong!

 

Stewart

[stewartingram]

But that at least had signals to protect it. The unfortunate woman in the Evoque had to bail out onto the central reservation and hope the Police would arrive before a high-speed pile-up occurred.

 

John

Oxymoron?

 

Evoque + unfortunate?

Not in my book, she made the choice, silly woman.

 

Stewart

[Guest]

In the days when Radio 4 had a regular transport programme, I remember one of the presenters road-testing the then-new Renault Espace. On the outside lane of the M25, he lost all electrics. Not only was the car immobilised, but the vehicle locked its doors and windows. He eventually got out by pushing out the sun-roof.

 

Good to have something like this handy in the car...

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Gankarii-YZM-012-UK-Life-Emergency-Hammer/dp/B01GIEV3WA

[Edwin_m]

Although a sprinkler couldn't have put this fire out, I guess it might have prevented it spreading to other vehicles. 

[PatB]

I remember being quite miffed when my FC Land Rover spontaneously ignited on Bedminster Bridge roundabout one wet night. Given that I'd just rewired it and also that it contained almost nothing to burn I felt that it did it purely to inconvenience me .

[chris p bacon]

I remember being quite miffed when my FC Land Rover spontaneously ignited on Bedminster Bridge roundabout one wet night. Given that I'd just rewired it and also that it contained almost nothing to burn I felt that it did it purely to inconvenience me .

 

I think I see the issue there. . . ..

[Wheatley]

From a point of complete ignorance about the fire, how can cars in a car park catch fire ? 

 

BBC reports quotes a witness who said it started in "an old Land-Rover". As the owner of one of those I can confirm that they can ignite quite happily all by themselves once you get enough oil, fabric-covered wiring, DIY mods/repairs and dodgy connections in the same place. Which is why mine has a big chunky battery isolator fitted, with the isolator key chained to the ignition key so you can't leave it unattended and switched on.

 

I'm intruiged to see how many insurance claims 1400 burnt out vehicles will generate ...

Edited January 2, 2018 by Wheatley

[Dunsignalling]

In the days when Radio 4 had a regular transport programme, I remember one of the presenters road-testing the then-new Renault Espace. On the outside lane of the M25, he lost all electrics. Not only was the car immobilised, but the vehicle locked its doors and windows. He eventually got out by pushing out the sun-roof. All this was broadcast live, at least for the first few minutes; considering the circumstances, the language was quite restrained.

At least he was on a road with little chance of his car being hit by anything travelling fast.

[TheSignalEngineer]

I remember heading down the A34 past Trentham Gardens in 1971 when our Bedford CA van filled with smoke. We bailed out and fortunately it didn't burst into flames. When it cooled down we opened it up and found that a leaking injector line was spraying diesel onto the exhaust manifold. 

 

Standard S&T cure of a bit of green insulating tape round the pipe and we nursed it back to the Road Motors Depot at Stoke.

[Dunsignalling]

BBC reports quotes a witness who said it started in "an old Land-Rover". As the owner of one of those I can confirm that they can ignite quite happily all by themselves once you get enough oil, fabric-covered wiring, DIY mods/repairs and dodgy connections in the same place. Which is why mine has a big chunky battery isolator fitted, with the isolator key chained to the ignition key so you can't leave it unattended and switched on.

 

I'm intruiged to see how many insurance claims 1400 burnt out vehicles will generate ...

1400 minus the number of uninsured ones?

[Guest]

1400 minus the number of uninsured ones?

 

Plus a couple of spurious whiplash claims. 

[PatB]

I think I see the issue there. . . ..

 

Well, I thought I'd done a better job than the last person to try it . Whilst it's a long time ago now, I don't recall actually having to replace much afterwards so it can't have been as bad as it felt at the time.

[davefrk]

Been reported on another site that it was a P38 Range Rover which were last built in 2002 so maybe classed by the bigoted media as an old Landrover, it was also suggested that it looked like a fire caused by LPG or gas, quite a number of bigger vehicles have been converted to gas power due to the cost of running a 4.2ltr  engine.

I suspect this is all purely unsupported info but the picture does show such a vehicle although to me the ball of fire looks to be at the next vehicle along so who knows. I seen plenty burned out vehicles on my travels and just last week a patch of road near us was showing the fire damage done by a car fire so it does happen, usually French wiring though..

 

Dave Franks.

[peanuts]

BBC reports quotes a witness who said it started in "an old Land-Rover". As the owner of one of those I can confirm that they can ignite quite happily all by themselves once you get enough oil, fabric-covered wiring, DIY mods/repairs and dodgy connections in the same place. Which is why mine has a big chunky battery isolator fitted, with the isolator key chained to the ignition key so you can't leave it unattended and switched on.

 

I'm intruiged to see how many insurance claims 1400 burnt out vehicles will generate ...

it being liverpool double it and times by ten

[royaloak]

So you think that every car running round that has a valid MOT is safe then?  An MOT 'if' done properly states that the car was safe at that time but it does not say it is going to be for the next year or that the day after someone isn't going to fit a radio badly.  I expect the owners of 'most' classic cars are far more likely to make sure their pride and joy is maintained to a higher standard than some of the cars being driven about.  Don't forget to the Government anything over 10 years old is a banger now and should be scrapped.

Indeed, I have several friends with new or nearly new cars that dont check anything or carry out any maintenance on their cars, they dont even check the oil level or tyre pressures, this culminated in Mels Fiat 500 seizing its engine because it burnt all the oil between services.

 

A lot of people now class a car as a throw away commodity, just like a kettle or vacuum cleaner, when it breaks they just buy (or lease) another one.

Edited January 2, 2018 by royaloak

[royaloak]

it being liverpool double it and times by ten

You are assuming they are all insured!

 

Have you tried stealing a car in Liverpool thats taxed?*

 

I am sure they will get the usual bogus claims, after the 150 ran into the HST at Plymouth station GWR received over double the number of claims than there were people on the train including from a family of 4 who said they were on the HST, even though it had recently arrived from the Depot and still had its doors locked.

 

 

 

Edit-

* I would have typed the same thing about any other City including the one i live in, please dont take it seriously.

Edited January 2, 2018 by royaloak

[Titan]

You are assuming they are all insured!

 

Have you tried stealing a car in Liverpool thats taxed?

 

No, he is assuming that there are as many as 28,000 people in the whole of Liverpool that actually have insurance! 

 

Having said that as almost all were visitors to the horse show I suspect that a high proportion of them were Range Rovers/Discoveries etc. from outside Liverpool...