New Roco Z21 app

[Alan Kettlewell]

Yep, reverse two wires or turn one or two motors tgrough 180 degrees and you have a different logic.  It needs trial and error.

 

Here's another way.  Turn off all the contacts, then set just two, the straight on route is a good place to start.  Try this by operating the points until it's correct.  

 

Once it's correct, turn on the next sequence.  For the next sequence, only ONE contact needs to be changed ie only one motor should operate.  This will give the curved route.    Once this is grasped, the rest will become clear.

 

Alan

 

[melmerby]

FWIW the Z21 app logic for slips is the same as Traincontroller, Iain will probably confirm iTrain does it similarly.

You need four different logic states to operate the four possible routes (TC):

 

Note none of the four are the same and it will depend as has been pointed out which way around the motors are wired/fitted

[Knuckles]

Ok, just tried that as you said.

 

Same issue, they both move even though I only turn 1 on at a time and try it.  It's not really making any sence.  

[Knuckles]

If it helps the motors are mirrored with actuating levers on the inside and as you look at the layout the red wire/track is closest to operator.

 

Still won't fire 1 only whatever I select, it's both or literally  othing.

[jpendle]

What do you mean when you say that you 'only turn 1 on at a time'?

 

I think that we've been assuming that the two point motors/decoders have already been programmed to address 2 and 3, is that the case?

 

Also when you look at the settings for the 4 different states, only one logic setting should be changing as the diagram shows just one point change per state.

 

So for example

 

The logic might look like this:

 

0 1   0 1

0 1   1 0  Just one motor changes

1 0   1 0 Again just one change

1 0   0 1 One change

 

Regards,

 

John P

[Knuckles]

Yeah it doesn't work.

 

I programmed them as 1 and 2 but everything you've all been saying to do doesn't work.

 

I've tried turning them all off and trying to turn on just one logic at a time.  Even though only 1 is lit up both motors will always fire or non at all.  Every combination yealds the same result.  Both move or nothing at all.

Edited May 5, 2020 by Knuckles

[WIMorrison]

John

 

There have been many references to faults in the app by this poster and every fault has proved not to be a fault.

 

The logic that Alan shows is the default logic for a full double slip and  has worked perfectly for the 3 that I have set up for other people layouts (not available in my scale  )

 

I will admit though that we have only used the app to set up the point motors as thereafter we have used iTrain to control them - which is the same as Keith displays for TC9.

[Knuckles]

I have not said the app is at fault.

 

I'm saying it isn't yet doing as you all describe.

 

 

In case it makes a difference, the smails are wired like I do Tortoises.

 

Pins 1 and 8 go to track bus, 2 and 7 are joined together and go to frog.

Edited May 5, 2020 by Knuckles

[Alan Kettlewell]

I also use Train Controller and the logic is the same, and depends on which way round the motors are fitted, and which way round the wires are attached to the motors.  

 

Alan

 

[Alan Kettlewell]

9 minutes ago, Knuckles said:

Yeah it doesn't work.

 

I programmed them as 1 and 2 but everything you've all been saying to do doesn't work.

 

I've tried turning them all off and trying to turn on just one logic at a time.  Even though only 1 is lit up both motors will always fire or non at all.  Every combination yealds the same result.  Both move or nothing at all.

 

Here's another thing you might test.  Try disabling one of the motors - I mean by turning off the contacts to that motor  in the App.  Then try out a sequence to see if you can get just the one motor to works as  it should.  

 

Alan

 

[Knuckles]

I'm unsure how to do that, I think.  If you mean nock all the lights out first then turn them on 1 by 1 I tried that a few times to no avail.

 

I'm gathering by all the above comments that a motor should always fire when any one of the 0s or 1s are pressed.  If so fair enough.  So far though it's always both firing or nothing happening.

Edited May 5, 2020 by Knuckles

[Alan Kettlewell]

Not quite.  A motor will only fire if that contact (polarity) is changed.  So if on sequence 1 it's set at say 0, then if you set the next sequence also to 0, then the motor doesn't fire.  

 

Hope that helps.

 

Alan

 

[Alan Kettlewell]

I might add that one motor is represented by the left most columns of contacts, the other by the right side.   They are not necessarily the left and right motors as fitted to the turnout.  It can be 'fun' doing all this when the left side contacts work the right motor and vice versa.   

Edited May 5, 2020 by Alan Kettlewell

[WIMorrison]

I suggest that you walk away until tomorrow morning then;

 

1) delete the slip from the app

2) readdress both point motors to the chosen addreses by creating 2 normal turnouts

3) confirm that both motors are switching independently on the correct addresses

4) recreate the slip and type in the numbers that you assigned in point 2

5) hopefully sit back and enjoy but if the motors don’t go the way you want then ensure you use the instruction provided by Roco at the bottom of the screen for configuring the slip and also ensure that you don’t end up with  the logic you show above, the logic can only be a variation of what all has by moving complete lines up or down

 

[Knuckles]

I dunno.  I've been at it well over 4 hours now.  I've given up.  Tried every combination under the sun.  Not once has it done as ye collectively describe where one will fire only at certain settings.

 

Will have 1 more go tomorrow and if it's the same rigmarol I'm fagging out and re-doing the track plan with 2 points end to end.

 

Edit: was replying 2 posts above as only just saw yours.

 

Edit 2:  Will have a go tomorrow.

 

Thanks all for your time; it's appreciated.

Edited May 5, 2020 by Knuckles

[WIMorrison]

55 minutes ago, jpendle said:

What do you mean when you say that you 'only turn 1 on at a time'?

 

I think that we've been assuming that the two point motors/decoders have already been programmed to address 2 and 3, is that the case?

 

Also when you look at the settings for the 4 different states, only one logic setting should be changing as the diagram shows just one point change per state.

 

So for example

 

The logic might look like this:

 

0 1   0 1

0 1   1 0  Just one motor changes

1 0   1 0 Again just one change

1 0   0 1 One change

 

Regards,

 

John P

 

John

 

This cannot ever work - you have the same issue as the poster with the problem because the last 3 logic states you show in the image are the same yet you suggest they will have a different outcome - not possible.

Edited May 5, 2020 by WIMorrison
spelling!

[jpendle]

That's not my image, I attached it to the post and then couldn't delete it.

 

John P

[jpendle]

2 hours ago, Knuckles said:

I'm unsure how to do that, I think.  If you mean nock all the lights out first then turn them on 1 by 1 I tried that a few times to no avail.

 

I'm gathering by all the above comments that a motor should always fire when any one of the 0s or 1s are pressed.  If so fair enough.  So far though it's always both firing or nothing happening.

Ok, so you don't fire the motors by pressing the 0's and 1's. That just changes the logic.

You fire the point motors in "Control Station" mode by pressing the green 'state' icon.

So to get the first 'state' to work, the upper curved route. You press the green icon and see what happens.

If you don't get the slip to the right route then change the logic for one of the motors by pressing one set of 0's & 1's so that. for example. the 0 is highlighted in red rather than the 1.

Then press the green icon again to see what happens.

Repeat the above two steps until the slip matches the icon.

Then move onto the next 'state' icon and do the same.

 

BTW in an earlier post you said you had set these motors to address 2 & 3, then later said they were set to 1 & 2. Also you must program the Smails addresses in Control Station mode otherwise they won't work properly.

 

Also what do you mean by 'knock all the lights out first then turn them on one by one'?

 

Regards,

 

John P

[Knuckles]

Think we got wires crossed.  Everything you described I've been doing, I know the difference between the control station, green state and steering but the problems persist as described.  Changing the logic to 0 or 1 doesn't ever move only 1 motor it's always 2 moving or non regardless of what I press so some routes are impossible.

 

I meant addresses 2 and 3 not 1 and 2, maybe I typed wrong there.

 

I'll retry in morning although I'm suspecting when programmed the motors when touching the double slip icon it might have programmed both to either 2 or 3 rather than 1 each...if so would explain why 2 of them always move.  This thought occured recently as a maybe.

 

Will find out tomorrow hopefully when I try what was suggester earlier using 2 standard turnouts to begin with....or keep if the slips are still a pita.

 

Will report back once trialled the next goes.

Edited May 5, 2020 by Knuckles

[jpendle]

3 hours ago, Knuckles said:

I'll retry in morning although I'm suspecting when programmed the motors when touching the double slip icon it might have programmed both to either 2 or 3 rather than 1 each...if so would explain why 2 of them always move.  This thought occured recently as a maybe.

I think that might be the issue, the app is almost certainly addressing both Smails when they are used for a slip, regardless of the route.

I always program my point decoders using a dummy point in the control station. Then when I draw the actual track layout I just assign the correct address to each point as I go.

I’m using NCE switch 8’s with Tortoises so I’m usually programming 8 addresses to the Switch 8 before I hook it up to the points.

 

Regards,

 

John P

[Alan Kettlewell]

Morning 'Knuckles',

 

I hope you're feeling re-enthused and ready to sort this problem today - can't have fellow modellers pulling their hair out. 

 

So I'm going to kick things off by asking a dumb question!  No offence intended but is it possible you've programmed both your turnout motors to the same address?

 

Sorry, but it might be worth eliminating that possibility before going any further.

 

Cheers ..Alan

[melmerby]

9 hours ago, jpendle said:

That's not my image, I attached it to the post and then couldn't delete it.

 

John P

In Edit Just highlight the image and press delete.

[Knuckles]

Alan Kettlewell:

 

Quote

 

Morning 'Knuckles',

 

I hope you're feeling re-enthused and ready to sort this problem today - can't have fellow modellers pulling their hair out.

 

 

Me: No indeedy, got some morning gusto thankfully.

 

Quote

I'll retry in morning although I'm suspecting when programmed the motors when touching the double slip icon it might have programmed both to either 2 or 3 rather than 1 each...if so would explain why 2 of them always move.  This thought occured recently as a maybe.

 

Alan Kettlewell:

 

Quote

.....but is it possible you've programmed both your turnout motors to the same address?

 

jpendle

 

Quote

I think that might be the issue, the app is almost certainly addressing both Smails when they are used for a slip, regardless of the route.

 

----Ahem...Yep.

Found the issue at last.  Seems when tapping on the DS icon in programming it can't tell the difference between the 1st and 2nd tap...which is pretty dodgy designing in my opinion.   I'd say a mix of design oversight with me being a dun-cough.  No instructions force you to figure it all out though.  

 

So the fix is as WIMorrison suggested:

Quote

 

1) delete the slip from the app

2) readdress both point motors to the chosen addreses by creating 2 normal turnouts

3) confirm that both motors are switching independently on the correct addresses

4) recreate the slip and type in the numbers that you assigned in point 2

5) hopefully sit back and enjoy........ 

 

 

 

So, once I had blades moving one at a time in the logic section like they were supposed to I figured it out in less than 5 minutes as I said I likely would.

 

Many thanks to you all for putting up with me, it's appreciated.  You will all be getting a collective thank you shout out in the next layout update  (or the one after) for anyone who follows my content, will also document this conflab in there so others can hopefully not contract Alopecia through it.

 

----------------

 

There is another issue however, one I anticipated.  As I'm using Peco Code 75 Live Frog H0 Double Slips....out of the two chipped loco's the Pacific is shorting out around the frogs, no doubt where the two insulating breaks are for the closure rails.  I'll be replacing them with Bullhead ones at the earliest opportunity once Peco release them but for now gotta get this sorted before can move on.

 

The issue might be at the frog where the plastic bits are so that might need tweaking instead.

 

Now I usually modify my points to be 'DCC Friendly' or electrically operate like hand built points.  I've hand built P4 points before and a single slip and got them working fine so I'm not a complete n00b here, however I doubt bonding the closure rails to the stock rails will do the trick here.

 

If I increase the insulation where I've circled would that sort it?  I believe so but if not please advise me, if so I'll likely cut into the metal next to the plastic to keep the Wing rails further apart then if it's dead bond closures to the stocks.  Either way what ye think is best?  The DMU goes across it slowly with no bother 8 or 9 out of 10 times but the pacific is useless unless it is in rocket mode.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 6, 2020 by Knuckles

[Salmotrutta]

32 minutes ago, Knuckles said:

Alan Kettlewell:

 

 

Me: No indeedy, got some morning gusto thankfully.

 

 

Alan Kettlewell:

 

 

jpendle

 

 

----Ahem...Yep.

Found the issue at last.  Seems when tapping on the DS icon in programming it can't tell the difference between the 1st and 2nd tap...which is pretty dodgy designing in my opinion.   I'd say a mix of design oversight with me being a dun-cough.  No instructions force you to figure it all out though.  

 

So the fix is as WIMorrison suggested:

 

 

So, once I had blades moving one at a time in the logic section like they were supposed to I figured it out in less than 5 minutes as I said I likely would.

 

Many thanks to you all for putting up with me, it's appreciated.  You will all be getting a collective thank you shout out in the next layout update  (or the one after) for anyone who follows my content, will also document this conflab in there so others can hopefully not contract Alopecia through it.

 

----------------

 

There is another issue however, one I anticipated.  As I'm using Peco Code 75 Live Frog H0 Double Slips....out of the two chipped loco's the Pacific is shorting out around the frogs, no doubt where the two insulating breaks are for the closure rails.  I'll be replacing them with Bullhead ones at the earliest opportunity once Peco release them but for now gotta get this sorted before can move on.

 

The issue might be at the frog where the plastic bits are so that might need tweaking instead.

 

Now I usually modify my points to be 'DCC Friendly' or electrically operate like hand built points.  I've hand built P4 points before and a single slip and got them working fine so I'm not a complete n00b here, however I doubt bonding the closure rails to the stock rails will do the trick here.

 

If I increase the insulation where I've circled would that sort it?  I believe so but if not please advise me, if so I'll likely cut into the metal next to the plastic to keep the Wing rails further apart then if it's dead bond closures to the stocks.  Either way what ye think is best?  The DMU goes across it slowly with no bother 8 or 9 out of 10 times but the pacific is useless unless it is in rocket mode.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Before trying anything to drastic why not put some paint or Tipp-Ex on the potential offending bits to check it is where there is a problem? Then if that works as a temporary measure you can keep the slip "stock" so you can re-sell it once the Bullhead ones arrive. 

[Knuckles]

Good idea, will try that now and report back.