Time to bring back design clever?

[Colin_McLeod]

If you're that desperate, keep an eye on Ebay.

 

Kitmaster BP coaches pop up quite regularly, even as unbuilt kits.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/KITMASTER-33-MODEL-RAILWAY-PULLMAN-CAR-DECALS-UNMADE-COMPLETE-SEE-PHOTOS/202198412695?hash=item2f13f6ed97:g:A6oAAOSwKXdaUACJ

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Thanks John. I already have a six car Triang Blue Pullman that includes two Kitmaster kitchen cars. What would have been nice is to supplement my Bachmann six car set with two matching Bachmann coaches.

 

Colin

 

 

PS. I'm not "desperate". It's more in the "would be nice to have" category.

[The Stationmaster]

Since Hornby and other big players contract out manufacture to factories in China it is only a small step to realise anyone with the funding can do the same, hence the emergence of the small companies such as Accurascale entering the scene with small production runs of quality items.

 

But odd though it might seem some (if not more) of the small companies have probably produced and sold more of some of their commissioned items than Hornby have produced and sold off some of their 'mainstream' items.  The entire initial production run of the Hornby 2 BIL for example was reportedly only 750 (although there were later issues - with Hornby's typical problem of too many being produced at Year 2).

[Dunsignalling]

I'm making an assumption here John that you are referring to Railroad. Which is a fair call after all these are supposed to be what gets the newbies in.

Definitely. I'll revisit the post to avoid any ambiguity.

 

John

[Dunsignalling]

Did "Design Clever" (Dumbing Down?) ever completely disappear ?

 

Hornby's BR Mk1 coaches introduced only a few years ago have moulded pipework on the roof and moulded grabrails at the ends while Bachmann's (tooled up many years ago) have fitted wired detail.

 

The prices of the latest releases of Hornby's Mk1 coaches have almost caught up with Bachmann's price, which has also just gone up.

 

Although the Hornby coaches can have the moulded detail removed and improved to match Bachmann coaches without disturbing the nice paint and lining of the sides.....why do all that work on a whole rake if Bachmann give you that detail ready made.

 

I never understood Hornby's approach with the Mk1 coach and now it is hardly cheaper. They may feel they can depend on brand loyalty to sell these.

Hornby's current Mk1s were introduced as Railroad and defined as Design Clever at the time. The ones fitted with metal wheels (and in some cases, lights), apparently qualify as main range.

 

I don't believe it either, but I accumulated all the Mk1s I'll ever need fifteen years ago, from Bachmann, so it doesn't matter what I think. . 

 

John

Edited February 20, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[Dunsignalling]

Sorry Colin, I can't fully agree to that.

 

I'm in the other camp. We need to hold the producers to account. Otherwise, any producer will sell off any old tat, and at top dollar too. Who wouldn't? My evidence is this:- Which TOAD brakevan would you choose? The 30+- year old Airfix/Bachmann model, or the Hornby version, which is fairly faithful to the real thing?

 

I should point out that like you, I would also like some of the fairly rare exotica to grace my railway room. However, having finally having an opportunity to purchase said exotica, I'd expect it to be top notch.

 

I'd guess that deep down, you owe it to yourself. We all do.

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

Bachmann's Toad is the old Mainline one; until the new Hornby one came out (and possibly still) the ex-Airfix one was their province.

 

That said, I seldom view the old ones from less than a yard away. They look perfectly OK, moulded handrails and all, from there and I won't be rushing to replace them.

 

John

[cctransuk]

Thanks John. I already have a six car Triang Blue Pullman that includes two Kitmaster kitchen cars. What would have been nice is to supplement my Bachmann six car set with two matching Bachmann coaches.

 

Colin

 

 

PS. I'm not "desperate". It's more in the "would be nice to have" category.

 

If you can live with the length / finish discrepancy between the Tri-ang and Kitmaster vehicles, surely a carefully matched pair of Kitmaster coaches in a Bachmann rake would be fine?

 

After all, at least the Kitmaster coaches are the correct length.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[brushman47544]

If you can live with the length / finish discrepancy between the Tri-ang and Kitmaster vehicles, surely a carefully matched pair of Kitmaster coaches in a Bachmann rake would be fine?

 

After all, at least the Kitmaster coaches are the correct length.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

What about electrical issues such as internal and directional lights etc.? Weren't they released as DCC fitted that work on DC, so Triang and Kitmaster coaches would need to have electrical circuitry for an 8 car train to run?

[The Johnster]

Bachmann's Toad is the old Mainline one; until the new Hornby one came out (and possibly still) the ex-Airfix one was their province.

 

That said, I seldom view the old ones from less than a yard away. They look perfectly OK, moulded handrails and all, from there and I won't be rushing to replace them.

 

John

 

 

My local shops still have stocks of the Hornby ex-Airfix/Dapol toad, at £16.99 as opposed to the newer version at £21.99.  I think the latter is a fair price for a very good model (not perfect; I can't get at the interior to detail it), but the inferior earlier model is, to my view, overpriced. 

 

I assume it is no longer in production and any remaining stocks are destined for train sets, and will soon disappear from the catalogue; H need to be trimming back on this sort of thing.  I have 2 older toads on the layout, a really antediluvian Mainline and an identical modern Bachmann; compared with my newer Hornby and Oxford toads with proper separate handrails they do not show up too badly in respect of handrail appearance except from close up or in the sort of light that casts side shadows when the moulded versions are very obvious.  The only difference between the Mainline and Bachmann vans is that the Bachmann has metal spoked wheels.  They are scheduled for replacement by further H or Ox vans, but the main 'driver' for this is not the handrails, but my intention to eliminate vehicles with brake blocks that do not align with the wheels; this looks very wrong to me and is unacceptable in a modern model; take note Bachmann!

[The Johnster]

Doing this doesn't tend to reduce prices though does it?  We ended up with sub-par models like the 42xx/5205 locos at normal prices.

 

Hang on a minute!  The original 'design clever' 42xx/5205 chassis came in for some criticism, as did some of the detail on these locos, but I have a 42xx bought last year (Lord and Butler offer, £80, seems reasonable to me) with a newer chassis and better detail.  I am very happy with it, slow running is superb, the loco looks like a 42xx even close up, and sort of plods about the layout like a real 42xx as well.  The current price seems a little steep, but well within what I regard as normal for a modern RTR good quality loco of this size; I certainly do not regard mine as 'sub-par' in any way!

 

I would agree that the 'design clever' era, cost focussed to the deficit of decent modelling as it was, was a failure and best forgotten, but the current 42xx/5205/72xx is not such a model and cannot be blamed for anything!

[Andy Mac]

These are commercial companies not charities, the market is what holds them to account in order to satisfy their shareholders or owners as the case may be. Yes they will strive to increase their market share but their strategies will not suit everyone.

I think Jeff sums this all up nicely.... Hornby/Bachmann are all companies out to make as much profit for their owners shareholders as possible.... they are not charities out to provide models at cost price... take for example Hornby mk2e, a railroad and main range model... i’d Suggest the main range model will only cost a tiny percentage more to produce than the railroad model, due to the extra printed details, steel wheels and other minor improvements. now Hornby price that model at the maximum price they think that the market will sustain... i’m Pretty sure the price has no correlation to the cost to produce....I think it would be the same if they sent their 156’s/59’s older models to the railroad range, they’d still sell them for the maximum they could.

 

My idea of design clever is what the SLW class 24 is.... it’s a high detail/cost model...however the chassis is future proofed to be used as a class 25 chassis, thus reducing the cost to SLW of introducing a (hoped for) hypothetical class 25 model. Obviously, again, this doesn’t mean we get a cheap class 25, but a model that is hopefully able to be brought to market at a price point that will sell well and provide maximum returns...

 

Design clever should be about thinking ahead to reduce future costs, possibly invest just a little bit more into R&D to provide a common chassis/body that will cover a couple of classes or sub classes with minimal additional costs. If the R&D is done correctly, then there shouldn’t be any compromises in detail.....

 

I think we have to accept that model Railways went out of fashion in the 80’s, and that there just isn’t the same numbers of youngsters involved now, so the manufactures, smaller companies, crowd funders all seem to target high detail, high spec models as the areas where they can make a return, from the likes of me, a middle aged guy, with some spare disposable income who was toy trains obsessed as a youngster, who came back to the hobby after a long absence.

 

Andrew

[Tarnish1]

It will be interesting to see if the existing "Design Clever" P2 is re-issued when the new Prince of Wales is completed! See https://www.p2steam.com/ 

[Black 5 Bear]

It will be interesting to see if the existing "Design Clever" P2 is re-issued when the new Prince of Wales is completed! See https://www.p2steam.com/ 

 

I would say a re-release is a racing certainty.

The later versions had various tweeks, one being turned metal buffers on the loco, this made a world of difference from the fragile plastic moulded ones.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

There will be more than enough market for a competing 'current standard' model once the P2 starts steaming around the network (hoping that mainline steam operation is still possible).

[Mark Dickerson]

Design clever should be about thinking ahead to reduce future costs, possibly invest just a little bit more into R&D to provide a common chassis/body that will cover a couple of classes or sub classes with minimal additional costs. If the R&D is done correctly, then there shouldn’t be any compromises in detail.....

 

I think we have to accept that model Railways went out of fashion in the 80’s, and that there just isn’t the same numbers of youngsters involved now, so the manufactures, smaller companies, crowd funders all seem to target high detail, high spec models as the areas where they can make a return, from the likes of me, a middle aged guy, with some spare disposable income who was toy trains obsessed as a youngster, who came back to the hobby after a long absence.

And yet, and yet, Hornby still persist with Smokey Joe, so it must continue to sell to someone. Might it not be wholly unreasonable to suggest something (common?) a lot closer to scale chassis- and body-wise for new Railroad releases, too?

[rob D2]

In answer to the topic.....No.

[peteskitchen]

I would say a re-release is a racing certainty.

The later versions had various tweeks, one being turned metal buffers on the loco, this made a world of difference from the fragile plastic moulded ones.

 The part that I find the worst on this model is the rotary valve gear and associated rodding. It looks awful in bendy moulded black plastic. It that was addressed somehow it would improve the look no end to me, oh and also fit a better motor, The one that's in can sound dreadful if you get a noisy one.

[Legend]

Design Clever should be present at all times . Its not new most manufacturing companies have Continuous Improvement Programmes . Taking cost out adds to their profit, or in some cases they pass it on in price reduction to gain market share. As Andy Mac points out with his SLW 24 comparison really everything should be designed clever. The really clever part , though, is to do it without the customer noticing and knowing if the compromise is going too far. That's where Hornby failed, and certainly announcing it was a major mistake.

 

So its not so much design clever, we should have that anyway , its more about the % of market that's prepared to spend lots of money on separately fitted details etc and the % market that will accept moulded detail etc , enough for a reasonable reproduction but at an attractive price . So really the argument is detail v cost which one is paramount to you . And of course each of us is different.

[Steamport Southport]

In terms of pricing, are we now finding out just how much all those Christmas train sets, fictional but brightly coloured PO wagons and zillions of GWR 101s and Smokey Joes cross-subsidised the upper end of the model range? Now that the "toy" market has all but disappeared, apart from maybe a bit of Thomas, we've (well, not quite we, 'cos I can't afford current main range prices) got to cough up what the better models actually cost.

 

Me, I'd just be happy if online secondhand prices were a bit less stupid, on average, because those of us outside the UK don't have access to swapmeets or exhibition trade stands where the in-person bargains can be found.

 

I would dispute that the toy market has disappeared. What were two of the biggest sellers last year according to Hornby's website? The Christmas Train set and the Fathers Day wagon. Both aimed at those playing trains on the carpet or the novelty market.

 

Besides most people who buy trainsets aren't modellers using model shops, they are people buying them from places like Argos, mail order catalogues and online from places like Amazon. Just putting Flying Scotsman train set into Google and there are dozens of offers, very few of which are model shops. The top offer is Tesco.

 

 

Personally I don't want design clever or "toy trains" to make an appearance back in the main range. I thought we had got rid of most of that rubbish back in the 1970s when Airfix and Mainline appeared. Then we started getting better models from Hornby with things like wire handrails and separately attached items. Let's not go back to the bad old days. By all means keep the Railroad range for the poorer/older models, but I still want fully detailed, full specification models. If it costs more then so be it. A decent kit usually costs more that the RTR price anyway and then you have to build it.

 

 

Jason

[G-BOAF]

Sorry but for me, the worst aspects of the P2 are the awful moulded cab handrails (basically the lack of daylight behind them) and the lack of wheel bearings. If I wanted to add  handrails I would have to repaint the whole loco (huge work beyond my capabilities).

 

But then they put sliding cab roof vents, which are very much a 'nice to have', like sprung buffers, as opposed to handrails which are essential. What weird priorities!

 

Even a poor/cheap motor is rectifiable (see Bachmann's Std5 and original A1s), with basic engineering skills and 1 hour, and needs to be functional rather than elegant. A repaint requires significant skill and near perfection.

 

Again I say that the better solution would have been no handrails at all on the railroad model (better than green-painted lines of plastic as per now), and (assuming a low price point on the full fat model is still a priority), a bag of painted knobs and some wire for the modeller to fit.

 

If Hornby persist with the railroad/main range P2, I can only hope that Bachmann tool up a P2 when 2007 is completed (and maybe then they can justify a roller-bearing LNER tender for both it and Tornado!)

 

EDIT - I note that the O/P has been very quiet - ever since page 2. Has he run having lit the blue touch paper...??

Edited February 21, 2018 by G-BOAF

[The Johnster]

Someone commented about Smokey Joe.

 

Smokey Joe and his chums are a fundamental part of Hornby's base strategy, a perfect 'cute' pug with a quirky name that will sell itself in kiddies starter sets.  Cheap and easy to produce, 4 wheels for chubby little fingers to put back on the track, robust, reliable.  A finescale model to appeal to 'proper' modellers (or those who like to think buying good quality RTR is enough to qualify them as this) would cost the best part of £100, not unreasonably in this day and age, and while micro-layout enthusiasts of Scottish dockside layouts would be up for it, who else would?  It is not an industrial loco, and does not resemble one.

 

That H still churn it out in volume proves the point; it is very easily obtainable second hand for pocket money (mostly I suspect on the older Scalextric based chassis, with top speed to match), and my local shop has whole shelves of them.  The Thomas range continues to make profit for them as well; redacted lo-fi stuff with roots in the Triang era.  This is why H are the household name in the UK market; people who have never heard of Bachmann have heard of Hornby, though the older generation wrongly associate it with Hornby Dublo and 'proper British, dammit' engineering from the good old days, whatever they were.

[PatB]

I've just had a look at Hornby's website and, unless I'm being thick, there doesn't seem to be anything in the Railroad loco range between Smokey Joe at GBP40.99 rrp, and the D49 and Compound at GBP85.99 rrp. That's a huge gap, not only in price but also in type of motive power. Why no Jinty, for example? Or Pannier? For many years the Triang Jinty was almost the archetypal beginners loco and is something that would actually be useful on the layout of the beginner who wants something vaguely prototypical but can't afford full-fat.

 

Edit: I've just had another look and, OK, there's the imminent 27xx pannier and the out of stock 14xx to fill the gap. Stiil not exactly a comprehensive selection.

Edited February 21, 2018 by PatB

[Dunsignalling]

Design Clever should be present at all times . Its not new most manufacturing companies have Continuous Improvement Programmes . Taking cost out adds to their profit, or in some cases they pass it on in price reduction to gain market share. As Andy Mac points out with his SLW 24 comparison really everything should be designed clever. The really clever part , though, is to do it without the customer noticing and knowing if the compromise is going too far. That's where Hornby failed, and certainly announcing it was a major mistake.

 

So its not so much design clever, we should have that anyway , its more about the % of market that's prepared to spend lots of money on separately fitted details etc and the % market that will accept moulded detail etc , enough for a reasonable reproduction but at an attractive price . So really the argument is detail v cost which one is paramount to you . And of course each of us is different.

I, for one, only consider buying locos with moulded handrails if they are prototypes that were finished in unlined black. Anything else stays firmly on the shelf, so no DoG or P2 in my fleet, not even the spurious "main range" versions.

 

Replacing the crappy things and applying a coat of satin black courtesy of Halfords is well within my abilities. A full application of a more complex livery is something I can't do to a standard comparable with the factory finish (even the simplified Railroad standard) and a professional job will cost more that the most expensive Railroad loco.

 

Maybe I'm untypical, but I already have so many locos that I can easily keep going without any more for the rest of my natural if I consider whatever new ones are on offer to be inadequate. 

 

John

Edited February 22, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[G-BOAF]

I personally have saved a lot of money by simply buying the Railroad version of a model and adding detail as I see fit.

 

 

How many hours does this take? How much would this cost if you were paying yourself (even the minimum wage), plus cost of materials/postage etc. All adds up.

No such thing as a free lunch, and every such thing as a false economy.

[phil-b259]

I've just had a look at Hornby's website and, unless I'm being thick, there doesn't seem to be anything in the Railroad loco range between Smokey Joe at GBP40.99 rrp, and the D49 and Compound at GBP85.99 rrp. That's a huge gap, not only in price but also in type of motive power. Why no Jinty, for example? Or Pannier? For many years the Triang Jinty was almost the archetypal beginners loco and is something that would actually be useful on the layout of the beginner who wants something vaguely prototypical but can't afford full-fat.

 

Edit: I've just had another look and, OK, there's the imminent 27xx pannier and the out of stock 14xx to fill the gap. Stiil not exactly a comprehensive selection.

 

Erm, Hornby are on record as suffering from a lack of production facilities and perhaps more importantly cash. The current catalogue is very much slimmed down in terms of quantity of models compared to a decade ago when Hornby did not have cashflow issues and China could readily produce whatever Hornby wanted.

 

As such if you want more 'Railroad' stuff in this years catalogue, which 'high quality' / 'main range' products are you going to delete to make room? (Note pretending this is not the case greatly diminishes the creditability of your observations)

Edited February 21, 2018 by phil-b259

[Legend]

The discussion over the P2 to me just highlights there are two clear markets

 

Those above who won't have a P2 at any costs because of moulded cab handrails , plastic rotary gear . Clearly they want a very detailed model and are prepared to pay.

 

Others, myself included, who are quite happy with the P2. Admittedly I went for the full fat one because I wanted the correct LNER lining instead of just white lines . I also seem to be lucky in that it runs well and silently. Oblivious to any other faults.

 

No one is right or wrong but it does mean we need two clear standards of models at defined price points.  I must admit to have been wrong in the past. I always thought cost was the major factor and that there was a ceiling . While I still think its the most significant factor  in the general model railway market there are clearly a much higher proportion of modellers prepared to splash the cash for what they want than I estimated. When I see people sign up for an APT I think anywhere from £550-£1000 depending on variant, or someone else buying 10 Class 26s in one go, got to be over £1000 of kit there, for what is a hobby, then there clearly is cash around.

 

So should they bring back design clever . Yes it should always have been there . What' s the alternative Design Stupid?   Bring in models at a decent price point for the general market.   But at the same time have the highly detailed range of models for those who want it . I think there are 2 markets there , I just don't know the % of each.  Clearly you can make less models of the high spec range but at a higher profit margin  but hopefully still have reasonable profit margin on the volume sales in the general market  . If you look at manufacturers I think Bachmann are clearly targeting the high spec added function market.  Hornby are still confused but are ideally placed to do both as long as clearly defined.