Time to bring back design clever?

[Colin_McLeod]

Is part of the problem (if there is a problem) that "design clever" (a good thing) seems to mean "design cheap and compromised" (not a good thing).

[Steamport Southport]

Someone commented about Smokey Joe.

 

Smokey Joe and his chums are a fundamental part of Hornby's base strategy, a perfect 'cute' pug with a quirky name that will sell itself in kiddies starter sets.  Cheap and easy to produce, 4 wheels for chubby little fingers to put back on the track, robust, reliable.  A finescale model to appeal to 'proper' modellers (or those who like to think buying good quality RTR is enough to qualify them as this) would cost the best part of £100, not unreasonably in this day and age, and while micro-layout enthusiasts of Scottish dockside layouts would be up for it, who else would?  It is not an industrial loco, and does not resemble one.

 

 

I reckon a new Caley Pug would sell quite well. Even better if they designed it so you could also make the NBR version and the industrial version (Neilsons built an industrial version of them). There's one preserved on the Chasewater Railway. https://chasewaterstuff.wordpress.com/2010/06/18/bits-pieces-more-about-neilson/

 

Found over a wide part of the country from Scotland, NW England, The Midlands (Crewe, Burton, Bromsgrove) and even near to Wales via Shrewsbury. Quite a few of the early withdrawals ended up in industry.

 

Seeing as "cute" seems to sell then I can't think of many more suitable prototypes.

 

 

Jason

[Steamport Southport]

I've just had a look at Hornby's website and, unless I'm being thick, there doesn't seem to be anything in the Railroad loco range between Smokey Joe at GBP40.99 rrp, and the D49 and Compound at GBP85.99 rrp. That's a huge gap, not only in price but also in type of motive power. Why no Jinty, for example? Or Pannier? For many years the Triang Jinty was almost the archetypal beginners loco and is something that would actually be useful on the layout of the beginner who wants something vaguely prototypical but can't afford full-fat.

 

Edit: I've just had another look and, OK, there's the imminent 27xx pannier and the out of stock 14xx to fill the gap. Stiil not exactly a comprehensive selection.

 

Hornby have a Jinty in their Railroad range. £25 in Hattons for the S&DJR version.

 

But if you shop around you can get brand new locomotives from £23. You can get tender locomotives for less than £60. The Compound is £45.

 

 

Quite a few reasonably priced Railroad models here. Other retailers are available. I'm using Hattons as an example as their website is more user friendly than most others.

 

http://www.hattons.co.uk/stocklist/1000389/1000588/1000640/0/Hornby_OO_Gauge_1_76_Scale_Steam_locos/prodlist.aspx?sort=5&showPreowned=false&pageid=1

 

 

 

Jason

[G-BOAF]

I seem to recall when Design Clever was first announced, Hornby made the argument that moulding technology had improved considerably since the 1990s when moulded detail was last used. In particular they said that undercuts were better and as such, moulded detail would look better.

It didn't, and in fact looking at this picture of the 8P, there seems to be NO undercuts on the moulded pipework.

 

https://locoyard.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/locoyard-review-Hornby-br-standard-8p-class-71000-duke-of-gloucester-cab-roof.jpg

Might look OK when hurtling round the layout, but when standing on shed, looks awful. I'd hazard a guess that most locos spend more time static on display or posing in a yard, than at the head of a train...

 

With locos now able to be acceptably sold at around £200 I think it is time for a properly tooled 8P to exist alongside the railroad loco...

Edited February 21, 2018 by G-BOAF

[tomparryharry]

To me, the design clever concept seems a backward step.

 

If design clever delivered  to a cheaper cost, then the  producer would keep quiet. After all, why need to let on?

 

Design Clever appears to me as a PR concept that hasn't done Hornby any favours. Solid moulded pipework on what, after all is Hornby's flagship model, bit sad really.

 

On the other hand, people will still grimble if the finished cost RRP is £12:50, hand delivered in a Rolls Royce, with accompanying Handel's Messiah....

 

Ian.

[Free At Last]

How many hours does this take? How much would this cost if you were paying yourself (even the minimum wage), plus cost of materials/postage etc. All adds up.

No such thing as a free lunch, and every such thing as a false economy.

Never have a go at doing a jigsaw puzzle then. Those ones that take some people days or even weeks to do would cost a fortune if you had to pay yourself. It would be cheaper to just buy a picture then rip it up.

I have never considered charging myself for something I enjoy doing.

[amwells]

No one is right or wrong but it does mean we need two clear standards of models at defined price points...

 

So should they bring back design clever . Yes it should always have been there . What' s the alternative Design Stupid? Bring in models at a decent price point for the general market. But at the same time have the highly detailed range of models for those who want it . I think there are 2 markets there.

Couldn’t agree more. I also think they need to be distinctly branded. Railroad is an odd term for a UK market, but the Hornby name needs to be attached to the ‘general market’ offering. There are alternatives in Hornby’s portfolio (e.g. Triang or Lima) but the fact is that most people associate *toy* trains with the name Hornby. Mainly due to their excellent marketing of years gone by which was appropriate for the time. So for me, the Railroad name should be dropped.

 

That leaves the detailed / premium range in need of a name. They have one - Bassett Lowke? The detailed end of the market is more knowledgable about alternative manufacturers and so brand loyalty is less relevant. It would be a big shift, but there is evidence of that brand differentiation in their die cast offerings... OOC, Vangaurds, Corgi etc (even if the die cast catalogues themselves still appear confused)

[Legend]

Couldn’t agree more. I also think they need to be distinctly branded. Railroad is an odd term for a UK market, but the Hornby name needs to be attached to the ‘general market’ offering. There are alternatives in Hornby’s portfolio (e.g. Triang or Lima) but the fact is that most people associate *toy* trains with the name Hornby. Mainly due to their excellent marketing of years gone by which was appropriate for the time. So for me, the Railroad name should be dropped.

That leaves the detailed / premium range in need of a name. They have one - Bassett Lowke? The detailed end of the market is more knowledgable about alternative manufacturers and so brand loyalty is less relevant. It would be a big shift, but there is evidence of that brand differentiation in their die cast offerings... OOC, Vangaurds, Corgi etc (even if the die cast catalogues themselves still appear confused)

Tri-ang isn’t actually available to them. Back in early 70s when Lines Bros empire went bust Tri-ang toys , which I think made prams and tricycle type toys was sold off. At the same time the model railway business was sold to Dunbee Combex Marx . They had to revert to the Hornby name because Tri-ang was no longer available .Thats why through a succession of owners it’s always been Hornby . Sorry for being pedantic! Agree Railroad is too American and it would have been ideal if they called the mainstream range Tri-ang and the super detailed Hornby.

[grahame]

I've just had a look at Hornby's website and, unless I'm being thick, there doesn't seem to be anything in the Railroad loco range between Smokey Joe at GBP40.99 rrp, and the D49 and Compound at GBP85.99 rrp.

Erm, yes there is. A class 73ED at £70.99, a class 55 at £65.99 and a whole host of non-railroad locos within that price band.

 

G.

[PatB]

Erm, Hornby are on record as suffering from a lack of production facilities and perhaps more importantly cash. The current catalogue is very much slimmed down in terms of quantity of models compared to a decade ago when Hornby did not have cashflow issues and China could readily produce whatever Hornby wanted.

 

As such if you want more 'Railroad' stuff in this years catalogue, which 'high quality' / 'main range' products are you going to delete to make room? (Note pretending this is not the case greatly diminishes the creditability of your observations)

 

Don't care. Can't afford any of them anyway .

 

Seriously though, it was more an observation than a complaint. It just strikes me as odd that the supposed budget range has such a big hole in it in what I would have thought would be a popular price range. The loco range, overall, also isn't terribly coherent in terms of stocking a reasonably prototypical small layout from it. I suppose it might be possible to do something with the County and the 27xx (if it happens) but the rest is a bit of a dog's breakfast of eras and regions. It's reminiscent of Triang c1968.

[The Blue Streak]

EDIT - I note that the O/P has been very quiet - ever since page 2. Has he run having lit the blue touch paper...??

 

Well to be fair (and I was one of those who gave him a bit of a savaging) I suppose We have all pulled the pin out of a grenade occasionally and then legged it after tossing it.

 However it has provoked some discussion on the matter and the one thing that seems to be a common train of thought is that never again should the lines between the more cost effective models and the top end versions be blurred. It should be cheap cheerful (and robust) or top quality (where people accept a premium price to go with it)  no mixing and matching .

 

I've just had a look at Hornby's website ......................... Smokey Joe at GBP40.99 rrp,

 

See now, I find that astounding. People will whinge about 200 quid rrp for an exquisite example of a big Pacific with all the fruit, but not even blink (well I haven't heard an outcry) at paying 40 quid for that little 0-4-0 with the 150mph scalextric motor and clunky running over any points a young'en might end up with.

 

Surely most people would buy a good second hand Pannier tank or similar and probably a few wagons or even a pre loved railroad 4472 for similar money.  Although thinking further about it, I suppose Mum or dad in the Dept. store with Junior and with no knowledge of such things would just think a train set is a train set and extra loco's are all the same 

Edited February 22, 2018 by The Blue Streak

[PatB]

Hornby have a Jinty in their Railroad range. £25 in Hattons for the S&DJR version.

 

But if you shop around you can get brand new locomotives from £23. You can get tender locomotives for less than £60. The Compound is £45.

 

 

Quite a few reasonably priced Railroad models here. Other retailers are available. I'm using Hattons as an example as their website is more user friendly than most others.

 

http://www.hattons.co.uk/stocklist/1000389/1000588/1000640/0/Hornby_OO_Gauge_1_76_Scale_Steam_locos/prodlist.aspx?sort=5&showPreowned=false&pageid=1

 

 

 

Jason

Well it doesn't appear on Hornby's website as part of the current range. I was talking about current models and rrps, rather than what individual stockists might do regarding older stock and discounting. Whilst that might be a factor in a manufacturer's policy, I don't see that it can be relied upon to fill holes in a range.

 

Erm, yes there is. A class 73ED at £70.99, a class 55 at £65.99 and a whole host of non-railroad locos within that price band.

 

G.

 

Not where I'm looking there weren't, although a certain amount of searching has now thrown up the ED and the Deltic, along with a Bubblecar, none of which appeared when I first opened the Railroad D&E loco page, but turned up in the 8 page list of all locomotives. Which list, incidentally, refused to be sorted by anything other than "recommended".

 

OK, I'll concede that there isn't quite such a big hole in the range as I thought wrt pricing. I do still maintain that doing anything sensible with what's listed would be challenging. Maybe that's what this will be about .

 

And I agree with The Blue Streak that 40 quid rrp for Smokey Joe is a bit daft, given that the tooling would have paid for itself several decades ago and the amount of hand assembly involved is about as minimal as you'll get.

Edited February 22, 2018 by PatB

[kernowtim]

Retail price on the railroad deltic is almost £100, for a 40 year old ex lima model with a single piece body!!! More expensive than the dcc sound fitted class 47..

Maybe the railroad range could be rebranded as Dublo, has a certain ring to it...

[Dunsignalling]

I strongly suspect that the only way that the line between Railroad and the Hornby main range will ever be properly delineated is for them to be separate companies.

 

The other thing that nobody seems to be addressing is that the price rises that have been rolling through, since the demise of Design Clever (with capital letters), don't and won't just affect main range products. 

 

Let's say that Hornby were to start on a new large Design Clever loco today. On the basis that, this time around, the tooling allowed for the main range version to properly deserve the tag, we'll give that a c.£200 RRP.

 

When the P2 and DoG were produced, the price differential between the Railroad and (alleged) Full Fat versions of those was no more than 20%.

 

Bringing that up-to-date, I suspect that a lot of people's choices might be adjusted upward were they to be offered a true main range loco for c.£200 with the less detailed basic-finish version coming in c.£160.    

 

John

Edited February 22, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[Clearwater]

I don’t think the comments on branding stack up. On other threads, there are numerous anecdotes from retailers that some customers in model shops , so those who’ve taken the trouble to find a specialist places, will choose a Hornby branded item over a Bachman branded model of the same prototype even where the latter is a better model. Hornby’s key asset is their brand. To dilute it by selling models under a different name Is unlikely to be successful. A massive brand awareness campaign could be run but that would be disproportionately expensive and why do that when your existing brand says “model train” to the majority of consumers?

[Legend]

When the P2 and DoG were produced, the price differential between the Railroad and (alleged) Full Fat versions of those was no more than 20%.

 

Bringing that up-to-date, I suspect that a lot of people's choices might be adjusted upward were they to be offered a true main range loco for c.£200 with the less detailed basic-finish version coming in c.£160.    

 

John

Yes must admit that was my decision process on P2 . Because I wanted the full lining , I went for the main range version which from memory was about £20 dearer. But again there has to be a clear differential, maybe fully detailed £200 and Railroad £120 price levels. But i’d Be looking at two completely separate ranges in most cases . Having the same loco in both , I think the Hall is the main example, is a mistake.

 

The Smokey Joe at £40 is annoying . Not for us , but for folk that aren’t as clued up eg the wee Granny spending £40 of her pension for a present for grandson on something that’s given away free if you join the collectors club .

[Legend]

I don’t think the comments on branding stack up. On other threads, there are numerous anecdotes from retailers that some customers in model shops , so those who’ve taken the trouble to find a specialist places, will choose a Hornby branded item over a Bachman branded model of the same prototype even where the latter is a better model. Hornby’s key asset is their brand. To dilute it by selling models under a different name Is unlikely to be successful. A massive brand awareness campaign could be run but that would be disproportionately expensive and why do that when your existing brand says “model train” to the majority of consumers?

I think you could get round this by Hornby Elite and Hornby Express as examples . Maybe Hornby Dublo , but then I’d imagine a fight over whether this should represent the high detail range or “Railroad” . The red box needs to be retained for sure, probably more important for the “Railroad” range than the super detailed one which should so good that it sells on its own merits. Most of us have fond memories of our first Trainset and, as time goes on , for most of us it would have been a red box.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Legend

[Widnes Model Centre]

Retail price on the railroad deltic is almost £100, for a 40 year old ex lima model with a single piece body!!! More expensive than the dcc sound fitted class 47..

Maybe the railroad range could be rebranded as Dublo, has a certain ring to it...

 

The latest Deltic's RRP is £65.99p, R3590.

 

A lot of shops were selling it for between £100 and £81.00 for a considerable time, including the box shifters.

 

A quick check on prices today sees a few at the £90 on Ebay, one at £99.99p plus postage., one of the much lauded shops on here, selling at £83, another discounter at nearly £97. Then some below the £65.99p rrp. No wonder you were under the impression is was nearly £100. It certainly pays to price check!

 

Edit for typo.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Widnes Model Centre

[Bernard Lamb]

Yes must admit that was my decision process on P2 . Because I wanted the full lining , I went for the main range version which from memory was about £20 dearer. But again there has to be a clear differential, maybe fully detailed £200 and Railroad £120 price levels. 

 

The problem with the P2 was that there was no main range version. There was the cheapo and the not quite so cheapo.

There has never been a version with proper hand rails, painted cab fittings and who knows what other missing bits and pieces.

I went for the better version, detailed the cab and then chickened out when it came to the vertical rails on the inside of the smoke deflectors.

I think you have it about right with the price difference at current prices. However that should be accompanied with a much wider difference in the specifications.

The P2 has to be the definitive example of where design clever went wrong.

Bernard 

[Dunsignalling]

Yes must admit that was my decision process on P2 . Because I wanted the full lining , I went for the main range version which from memory was about £20 dearer. But again there has to be a clear differential, maybe fully detailed £200 and Railroad £120 price levels. But i’d Be looking at two completely separate ranges in most cases . Having the same loco in both , I think the Hall is the main example, is a mistake.

 

 

There lies the rub. I strongly suspect that tooling versatile enough to produce a basic £120 model as well as a fully detailed one to justify a £200 price-tag would be so difficult and expensive to produce that it might cause both prices to increase.

 

Probably cheaper, and better, as you suggest, to tool each separately whilst perhaps using a common mechanism.

 

Unfortunately, given that the resources for new tooling are limited, that would cut the number of new models that can be produced. Commercially, if we assume that Hornby make more per item from a £200 loco than they could from a £120 version of the same thing, and can sell enough full-price locos to obtain a return that satisfies their shareholders, why would they bother with the £120 ones at all?

 

Hornby is a business not a charity, Money talks and more money talks louder. The only justification for diverting resources from high-end to budget-end would be if the latter produced better margins. Were that the case, it would already be happening, so it clearly isn't. 

 

There is, perhaps another way, though.

 

When previous upgrades have taken place, the old, worn tooling gets refurbished and re-used after a while for a budget range release (Schools etc.)

 

Maybe the choice should be, you can have state-of-the-art, now and it costs what it costs, or wait five or six years for a cheaper option.

 

A bit like Ford used to do where, when a new Anglia came out, the obsolete one became the "new" Popular.   

 

John

Edited February 22, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[Clearwater]

I think you could get round this by Hornby Elite and Hornby Express as examples . Maybe Hornby Dublo , but then I’d imagine a fight over whether this should represent the high detail range or “Railroad” . The red box needs to be retained for sure, probably more important for the “Railroad” range than the super detailed one which should so good that it sells on its own merits. Most of us have fond memories of our first Trainset and, as time goes on , for most of us it would have been a red box.

But that’s effectively what they do today with Hornby and Hornby railroad. Going down that route has extra costs but no discernible benefit. As an aside, look how they brand their non train ranges eg they don’t brand Airfix as Airfix/Hornby...

 

Hence my point, looking to differentiate “design clever” /different levels of detail with wholly separate brands won’t work.

[Dunsignalling]

The problem with the P2 was that there was no main range version. There was the cheapo and the not quite so cheapo.

There has never been a version with proper hand rails, painted cab fittings and who knows what other missing bits and pieces.

I went for the better version, detailed the cab and then chickened out when it came to the vertical rails on the inside of the smoke deflectors.

I think you have it about right with the price difference at current prices. However that should be accompanied with a much wider difference in the specifications.

The P2 has to be the definitive example of where design clever went wrong.

Bernard 

Main range Schools (all-new) vs. Railroad Schools (derived from the old one) is about the right degree of separation in my book.

 

Current King Arthur vs Sir Dinadan would probably be taking things a little too far.

 

John

Edited February 22, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[tomparryharry]

Hornby Express has a certain ring to it. Perhaps Hornby might take your idea and use it to good effect.

 

The idea of awaiting the reduced-cost model might backfire. After all, in these cost-conscious days, to wait 5-6 years will screw up the returns.

 

Time to quietly ditch Design Clever, methinks. If Hornby stick to top-quality product, then their future is assured.

 

Now Hornby. Let's talk about that nice 'extra full-fat, gold top' pannier to complement your very nice Great Western Guards van. Go on, you know you want to.....

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

[Legend]

Unfortunately, given that the resources for new tooling are limited, that would cut the number of new models that can be produced. Commercially, if we assume that Hornby make more per item from a £200 loco than they could from a £120 version of the same thing, and can sell enough full-price locos to obtain a return that satisfies their shareholders, why would they bother with the £120 ones at all?

 

John

Because there’s possibly a large market that would be untapped where they can still make money. Ok maybe it’s 30%margin instead of 60% but it’s still worth having , because it maybe where the volume is, it may be 10000 over time instead of the 3000 for SWS. Agreed if they are constrained for manufacturing capacity it makes more sense to go for the higher margin items in the short term, but that’s where most of the competition is Bachmann, Heljan, Dapol. It would also be a short term strategy to concentrate on the high end rather than have an introductory offer ,albeit the introduction is probably to someone in their late 30s/40s rather than the 7 year old.

 

Hornby do think there is a market there , or at least did. Thats why they introduced Railroad in the first place

 

It is the business side of this that fascinates me . I really hope Pat Hammond writes a book on Hornby over the last 10-15 years it would be fascinating getting an insight to the decision process

Edited February 22, 2018 by Legend

[Dunsignalling]

Hornby Express has a certain ring to it. Perhaps Hornby might take your idea and use it to good effect.

 

The idea of awaiting the reduced-cost model might backfire. After all, in these cost-conscious days, to wait 5-6 years will screw up the returns.

 

Time to quietly ditch Design Clever, methinks. If Hornby stick to top-quality product, then their future is assured.

 

Now Hornby. Let's talk about that nice 'extra full-fat, gold top' pannier to complement your very nice Great Western Guards van. Go on, you know you want to.....

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

The problem is that producing cheap versions of locos to sell at prices that satisfy the price critics and  "main-range" ones that are good enough to satisfy the more discerning, from a common set of tooling, is an impossible dream. 

 

The 80% price differential suggested by Legend in his post almost certainly implies a bigger desirability-gap too. Once we recognise that getting "high-end" and "cheap" from the same tools isn't going to happen, any justification for covering the same prototypes in both ranges disappears.

 

If one wants (for instance) an Ivatt Duchess, they're in the main range if you want a cheap Duchess, the old one is in Railroad. If there isn't an old one, it won't be in Railroad, simple.

 

Equally, there are possibilities for Tri-ang era practices in Railroad that wouldn't be acceptable in the main range. Yes, I do mean, approximated locos with very basic levels of detail on existing mechanisms. The ex-Lima Deltic is exactly that so it's obviously OK. ex-Lima 94xx and J50 on Jinty chassis, anyone?

 

Marketing wise, I think something like "Hornby" for the Railroad range to keep it easy for newcomers to find, and "Hornby Gold" for the good stuff (and the correct place for new product, which shouldn't be sold short) would reflect the true market split rather better.

 

John

Edited February 22, 2018 by Dunsignalling