TMC announce NER G5 0-4-4T

[Compound2632]

23 minutes ago, tmc said:

Finally 35-250Z depicts loco 2093. This loco was one of the last to be repainted in full NER Green livery with N.E.R. on its tank sides

 

A response to comments made above on what I called the "lively" (apparent) shade of green would be very welcome by those such as myself with this particular model on pre-order.

 

In response to the comment made by @RichardT about the age of the paint on the preserved NER locomotives, I submit this F. Moore painting, which is contemporary with the livery it depicts:

 

 

[Embedded link]

 

That's certainly my expectation of NER green, but of course my expectation is no guide to the authentic colour.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Compound2632

[Steamport Southport]

18 minutes ago, That Model Railway Guy said:

Given that the model is being made by Bachmann, the colour may end up being similar to their NER E1 from a few years ago. I've noticed with my E1 the colour can look slightly different depending on whether it's in my lightbox or on a layout in more natural lighting.

 

Personally I prefer the latter.

 

Nevermind that. Is the Prime Pork van the correct shade of green?

 

  🐷

 

 

 

I'll have to dig out the Yeadons as I want one that will match either an East Anglian or West Yorkshire based example in the 1950s. Even Scottish. No problems with minor surgery or altering livery. 

 

Already got a vague idea of a few numbers. Just a pity they never managed to get to the CLC or WM&CQ like the J72s did.

 

https://www.brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=class&id=600705&type=S&page=alloc

 

 

 

Jason

[Compound2632]

10 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

Nevermind that. Is the Prime Pork van the correct shade of green?

 

You jest, of course, but it does provide a colour reference, of sorts. Googling images of "Hornby prime pork" one sees a wide range of colours depending on lighting conditions. Interestinly, those that are at the yellow end of the spectrum are from Hatton's website - they have perhaps been over-lit in a professional photo booth, like the TMC publicity photos? Other images are closer to the olive-sludge green I'm familiar with.

 

 

[Flying Pig]

9 hours ago, DougN said:

I doubt all of the clerestories were condemned before 1923 which I would have expected them all to be gone by 1940 as they were getting long in the tooth by that stage. 

 

This subject has been discussed before, possibly even earlier on this thread, and I've a feeling pictures were posted showing clerestories in service post-nationalisation.  Worth a search if you're interested.

 

Nevertheless, I would far rather see the later elliptical roofed stock (even as a readily available kit) which, as far as I can judge from photos, ran in numbers well into the 1950s and seems to have been a signature feature of stopping trains in the North East.

[Paul Cram]

6 hours ago, micklner said:

Dia 162 was done by D&S , I doubt if any are available nowdays.

 

D&S also did the Dia116, and Langley do a awful kit which is still available.

An enquiry to Danny may be productive. I got 4  4mm coach kits from him  this year.

[micklner]

1 hour ago, Paul Cram said:

An enquiry to Danny may be productive. I got 4  4mm coach kits from him  this year.

Was that via phone or mail ? . I have sent him at least two s.a.e's  in the past with zero response to either , I gave up. It was also mentioned at about the same time, he had family issues and to not phone him.

[Edwardian]

3 hours ago, thetalkinlens said:

 

I think you have a point on the colour, however just for comparison, a photo I took of 1310 at Tanfield in full sun, which I don't think is too far away from TMC's G5. I think I've seen photos of the NRM's 1621 outside and it looks similar in shade too.

 

 

It's not too far off, and closer than any image I have, but that's the extreme end of how light and yellow this livery was ever likely to appear in lighting conditions for which the North East is not especially known for most of the year!  Is a depiction at the extreme end of the possible ways this livery could appear the best choice?

 

I also take the point about indoor photographs. Nevertheless, I still think the livery sample as it appears in the official photograph has gone off the end of the chart of what a NER green could reasonably be depicted as. I second Compound's point about how that livery was depicted in colour at the time, how it appears in preservation under most lighting conditions, and how it is discuss in the North Eastern Record. One could do worse than look at the Precision Paints shade.  

 

Making the greatest possible allowance and allowing for quite a spectrum of shade depending on lighting conditions and other factors, I still think the livery sample as it appears in the official photograph has strayed too far toward the light, bright and yellow. As I say, it might be less virulent in the flesh and under layout lighting, but I am a little alarmed by the picture we have been shown. 

 

[RichardT]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

In response to the comment made by @RichardT about the age of the paint on the preserved NER locomotives, I submit this F. Moore painting, which is contemporary with the livery it depicts:

The “F Moore” paintings and the similar contemporary coloured plates in the “Railway Magazine” are a useful guide to get you into the ball park, but they are only the best that could be done in printers’ ink reproducing a painted photograph at small page size - the size of the object also affects perception of shade.  

 

And there are at least two different shades of green in the illustration - which is “correct”?

 

This debate over paint shades is a constant and fruitless one, but I suppose inevitable given that the hobby involves the accurate reproduction of detail.

I agree with you that the TMC sample is towards the very lightest end of “right”, but that’s just my view.  We can’t seem to accept the scientific fact that people are not capable of remembering and matching paint shades - despite their vociferous protests to the contrary.

 

In any case, no one is now alive who saw NER green in service. Colour films of the period are massively variable in how they recorded shade. Contemporary paint samples (if they exist) have endured nearly 100 years of ageing.  Examples in reference books use printers’ ink, not contemporary paint.  Referring to the shades sold by model paint manufacturers as a colour reference is the very definition of a circular argument. 

 

All you can do is adopt a shade that “looks right” to you, and which “looks right” for your chosen scale under your chosen layout lighting conditions (another massive variable).  

And if you’re William Stroudley that means your NER locos might come out ochre! ;-)

 

Richard T

Edited July 19, 2022 by RichardT
Spelling again.

[Compound2632]

16 minutes ago, RichardT said:

And if you’re William Stroudley that means your NER locos will come out ochre! ;-)

 

While accepting the truth of much of your argument, it is nevertheless the case that there is a range of possible greens, beyond the limits of which one is into the realms of improbability. It seems to me that a wise manufacturer will meet their customers' expectations (which I would take to be the colour of one of the preserved engines) unless they have very good evidence to the contrary, in which case they should offer an explanation, to educate the customer. If the yellowness seen in the publicity photos is a consequence of the lighting used by their photographer, then they're not doing themselves any favours. They are after all in the business of selling to customers.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Compound2632

[Steamport Southport]

15 minutes ago, RichardT said:

 

And if you’re William Stroudley that means your NER locos will come out ochre! ;-)

 

Richard T

 

Not that nonsense again....

 

I would have thought someone apparently from the NRM would know better. The quote was "An improvement on engine green" and referred to the Highland Railway green livery which Stroudley didn't like. He left for the LBSC not long after it was introduced. 

 

Or are you really suggesting all the employees of the Highland Railway and LBSC was also colour blind in a way that colour blindness doesn't work....

 

I also doubt they would be allowed to work on the railways, even then, if they were actually colour blind as colour blindness was discovered as a condition in the 1700s.

 

It was certainly known about by 1875.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagerlunda_rail_accident

 

 

Jason

Edited July 19, 2022 by Steamport Southport

[AY Mod]

I'd suggest it's not that light in reality as the shots are metered to capture shadow detail. Plus I know someone up there would have something to say if it was actually the wrong shade.

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

I'd suggest it's not that light in reality as the shots are metered to capture shadow detail. 

 

But is that wise, if it gives the wrong overall impression?

[thetalkinlens]

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

 

It's not too far off, and closer than any image I have, but that's the extreme end of how light and yellow this livery was ever likely to appear in lighting conditions for which the North East is not especially known for most of the year!  Is a depiction at the extreme end of the possible ways this livery could appear the best choice?

 

I also take the point about indoor photographs. Nevertheless, I still think the livery sample as it appears in the official photograph has gone off the end of the chart of what a NER green could reasonably be depicted as. I second Compound's point about how that livery was depicted in colour at the time, how it appears in preservation under most lighting conditions, and how it is discuss in the North Eastern Record. One could do worse than look at the Precision Paints shade.  

 

Making the greatest possible allowance and allowing for quite a spectrum of shade depending on lighting conditions and other factors, I still think the livery sample as it appears in the official photograph has strayed too far toward the light, bright and yellow. As I say, it might be less virulent in the flesh and under layout lighting, but I am a little alarmed by the picture we have been shown. 

 

 

I'm pretty much in agreement with you on this I think. My instant reaction when I saw the livery samples was, oh that looks a bit yellow.

 

I've always had a real love for the shades of green the NRM NER loco's are, and it is these which I associate with saxony green with them being the examples I've seen in real life.

 

Some NER models, and the "LNER Darlington green" by Precision Paints is to my eye much further in the blue direction from the NRM loco's. Ironically, before seeing the O livery samples I was concerned it would be too close to this, but as it turns out it looks to be at the other extreme! The green the full size G5 project look to have used in their online presence looks to be more Precision Paints LNER Darlington Green too.

 

It would be interesting to see one of the TMC O's alongside Bachmann's 2173 for colour comparison. If it were the same as 2173, I think I'd be pretty happy with the shade.

Edited July 19, 2022 by thetalkinlens

[tmc]

Hello everyone, just in regards to the colour of the NER example. It's purely down to lighting as a couple of you have already pointed out. We've done a few snap shots in different lighting next to the NER E1/J72 Tank 2173. Please see images below! Hope this clears things up a little, we've not seen any complaints about the NER E1/J72 Tank. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jol Wilkinson]

5 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

 

A beautiful model, and Bachmann continues to be second to none.

 

However, as one parishioner has commented elsewhere, the shade of the green is a bit 'lively'. In the official photograph above I'd even go as far as to say we are approaching Urie levels of ickliness! 

 

I've never been one to insist on exact shades, a futile quest for many reasons, and I suspect there were variations seen on the prototype, so my concern is that the official livery sample photograph shows a green which I suspect is a little beyond an acceptable range for the NER, even in bright sunlit conditions:

 

 

I assume the lighting in the photo gives a false impression, but that just leaves me wanting a better impression of how the model will look. The the official livery sample photograph above is close to pre-order re-think in my book. Close, but I suspect the benefit of the doubt is called for here. Still, I do hope mine is less 'vivid' when I open the box in due course.

 

These things happen; Dapol made a terrible job of representing any kind of Maunsell green on the D Class livery sample. I do wonder if a rethink is on the cards by TMC or if the sample is much less yellow and much less vivid than the official picture suggests. An updated picture, or sample colour in due course would be reassuring.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

"Correct" colours for models is a minefield and one where some RTR manufacturers do seem to have difficulty.

 

The 4mm NER Class G1 4-4-0, pictured in Edwardian's post above, was painted with cellulose paint matched to a Phoenix Precision Paints enamel sprayed sample. The finished model was then sprayed with a satin varnish having approx.. 10% black added, mainly to tone down the white lining of the transfers. Given the long history and development of PPP products I consider that this is as "accurate" as I could get and, allowing for the vagaries of colour photography, colour rendition, lighting, etc. seems to be reasonably consistent with the prototype photos above. Whether the TMC livery is within the same colour "band" and the sample shown is "accurately" portrayed in the photos in this thread will become evident over time.

 

The Hornby and Hattons generic four and six wheel so called LNWR carriages seem to have a main body colour significantly different to the PPP example. This model paint is , from personal subjective examination of three preserved LNWR carriages, including one that was able to be stripped back to the original paint, pretty accurate. Given that such examples and genuine information was available, it is difficult to see how both Hornby and Hattons got it obviously wrong.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Jol Wilkinson
Amended text

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, tmc said:

Hello everyone, just in regards to the colour of the NER example. It's purely down to lighting as a couple of you have already pointed out. We've done a few snap shots in different lighting next to the NER E1/J72 Tank 2173. Please see images below!

 

That's very reassuring; thank you for responding so promptly to the question, especially as some work was needed to do so. What is the change between each image - simply quantity of illumination or a change in colour balance/temperature? It's intriguing how in the topmost image the O looks a bit yellower that the E1 but they converge by the bottom image.

 

5 minutes ago, tmc said:

we've not seen any complaints about the NER E1/J72 Tank. 

 

Except, of course, that it shouldn't be green at all! 

[thetalkinlens]

5 minutes ago, tmc said:

Hello everyone, just in regards to the colour of the NER example. It's purely down to lighting as a couple of you have already pointed out. We've done a few snap shots in different lighting next to the NER E1/J72 Tank 2173. Please see images below! Hope this clears things up a little, we've not seen any complaints about the NER E1/J72 Tank. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It is posts like this which give me huge respect and confidence in TMC.

 

On the colour itself, the final comparison photo, which looks to be the darkest, to my eye is looking pretty close to a good representation of saxony green as worn by the NRM loco's. Looking at the E1, this is also how I have seen the real model to the naked eye, rather than in videos and photos.

 

Photo below of the M1 at Shildon by Andrew Jeffry, who I know so I'm sure he won't mind me posting his photo. I would say is pretty close to the final picture of 2093 in TMC's last comparison shot.

 

[tmc]

25 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That's very reassuring; thank you for responding so promptly to the question, especially as some work was needed to do so. What is the change between each image - simply quantity of illumination or a change in colour balance/temperature? It's intriguing how in the topmost image the O looks a bit yellower that the E1 but they converge by the bottom image.

 

 

Except, of course, that it shouldn't be green at all! 

That’s interesting that you’ve noticed that, after the first picture we changed the direction of the light (as we noticed it was shining straight at the G5) and the shutter speed. 

The rest of the photos all we changed was the shutter speed. 
 

Hope this helps!

Edited July 19, 2022 by tmc

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, tmc said:

Hello everyone, just in regards to the colour of the NER example. It's purely down to lighting as a couple of you have already pointed out. We've done a few snap shots in different lighting next to the NER E1/J72 Tank 2173. Please see images below! Hope this clears things up a little, we've not seen any complaints about the NER E1/J72 Tank. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Excellent.

 

I think that was a worthwhile exercise for some of us, so thanks for that. 

 

Both locos could afford to look darker, but I think the lower shots show them within a sensible NER colour appearance range, given all the variables etc, so I'm reassured. 

 

I'm now confident mine will look like the last shot (it's always dark in Yorkshire!)

[RichardT]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

It seems to me that a wise manufacturer will meet their customers' expectations (which I would take to be the colour of one of the preserved engines) unless they have very good evidence to the contrary, in which case they should offer an explanation, to educate the customer.

Yes, I agree with you about this and, returning to the thread after tea, I find that TMC have done just what you suggested!  Well done TMC - this is the kind of response that generates customer loyalty and trust.  Now, all I have to do is persuade you to convince Bachmann to issue this in N gauge (where I’d be up for at least four) and my cup would runneth over! (And some NER non-corridor carriages to match, but let’s not be greedy…)

 

Richard T

[RichardT]

…and speaking of NER coaches, did someone earlier ask about the survival of NER clerestories?

 

Attached a low-res photo which I believe is of the last day of passenger operation on the Weardale branch in 1953, at Frosterley.

 

You’ll see that the branch train has one clerestory carriage one elliptical roofed one, and one I can’t make out. So they did survive into nationalisation.  (Hint hint hint manufacturers…)

 

[Bishdurham]

May I have a purple one?

 

😇

[Paul Cram]

5 hours ago, micklner said:

Was that via phone or mail ? . I have sent him at least two s.a.e's  in the past with zero response to either , I gave up. It was also mentioned at about the same time, he had family issues and to not phone him.

I spoke to hm at the Kettering O gauge show and followed it with a phone call.

[New Haven Neil]

Here's another with two clerestories at the back of the train, South Shields, obviously just post-nationalisation.

 

 

Edit - if you zoom in, I'd swear that's a hint of lining on the splasher.....

Edited July 19, 2022 by New Haven Neil

[Bernard Lamb]

On 19/07/2022 at 12:50, Blandford1969 said:

The challenge with colour is that it varies by the light conditions, by how long ago it was painted, what the exact mix of the paint was and of course our own perception of colour.  Are there any NER paint samples from the NER era as that is the only way you could compare. Even then the challenge as shown by the QE2 in its purple livery is that you can provide a pantone sample of what you want but matching that to a paint sample can be at times challenging, whichever way round it is done. 

 

If there are any they would be of very little help. Looking at the North Eastern Record Volume 3 it comes up with various comments on paint.

In the TW Worsdell era and beyond:-

Gateshead used Saxony green with vermilion lining and buffer beams.

Darlington's green is said to have had a blue tinge and scarlet lake.

York used a green colour with a yellow tinge. - a vivid grass green - and orange vermilion.

There is no information as to how the paint was mixed.

However RH Inness noted that the NER green was mixed from equal parts of Prussian blue and middle Chrome yellow.

The book contains a sample prepared by the painter who restored 1463 in 1925. This appears very much towards the lighter end of the range to me.

Another point to note is that several locomotive paintings of the period were painted from official grey photographs and not from real life.

I am not trying to confuse folk - honest - just pointing out what a problem it is to come up with a definitive answer.

Give the model three coats of varnish with a touch of blue added might be the best solution. If it looks to bright.

Bernard