Does "D&E" modelling put scale before soul?

[bazjones1711]

Shepcote Lane tippler sidings layout

[Peter Kazmierczak]

It all boils down to want we want from our models. There must be some reason behind our interest in railways, otherwise we could take up knitting or fishing (apologies to knitters and fisher-folk).

 

Is it to please ourselves, others or a mix of both?

Are we interested in operation (whether round and round, shunting or both)?

Does it even have to work/move?

Are we more interested in the making than the "playing"?

Something we remember, an ideal world or total make-believe?

 

By "soul" I presume we mean railway atmosphere. A sense of time and place.

 

We are our own worse critics.

 

Just do it. 

Edited April 1, 2018 by Peter Kazmierczak

[Huw Griffiths]

This is our Crossley scrapyard layout only 4ft long , but does it have soul ? I'll let others decide

 

When I saw it at Pontcanna, it seemed to have a certain magnetism about it.

 

I'm not sure if that's what you mean by "soul" - but it looked good - and it certainly seemed to interest a number of show visitors.

 

By the way, where and when is this layout's next outing?

 

 

Huw.

[bazjones1711]

When I saw it at Pontcanna, it seemed to have a certain magnetism about it.

 

I'm not sure if that's what you mean by "soul" - but it looked good - and it certainly seemed to interest a number of show visitors.

 

By the way, where and when is this layout's next outing?

 

 

Huw.

Hello huw

Crossley scrapyard is due to appear at the Pontypridd show 21st April and at the Barry and Penarth anniversary show 14 th and 15 the July 2018.

Edited April 1, 2018 by bazjones1711

[bazjones1711]

Are we more interested in the making than the "playing"?

 

The answer to the question is a resounding yes for me, the enjoyment / hobby is in the building , weathering , research ect...

When the layouts are at home they have never been used but I am always trying to improve my standards and level of detail ...as for Crossley scrapyard it has only been to one show this year , it has had three invites and is due to be published in Hornby magazine soon

Edited April 1, 2018 by bazjones1711

[br2975]

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,as for Crossley scrapyard it has only been to one show this year , it has had three invites and is due to be published in Hornby magazine soon

There you are. . . . . . Today a Scout Hut in Pontcanna, tomorrow "THE WORLD" !

.

Hope your mouth is feeling better Baz ?

.

Brian R

[bazjones1711]

There you are. . . . . . Today a Scout Hut in Pontcanna, tomorrow "THE WORLD" !.Hope your mouth is feeling better Baz ?.Brian R

I write this from my hospital bed ! Everyone else sleeping, no time for that still on iv drips , tooth out just the infection to go away .

Regards baz

[bazjones1711]

There you are. . . . . . Today a Scout Hut in Pontcanna, tomorrow "THE WORLD" !.Hope your mouth is feeling better Baz ?.Brian R

Ps all due to the efforts of the Rolley brothers and lord and butler for putting on the show who have done an excellent job for the past 3 years

[Pacific231G]

To quote Alfred Hitchcock "What is drama but life with the dull bits cut out"

 

Without commenting on any particular layouts,  I've seen a few that modelled a real location in full and exactly to scale that left me completely cold. The quality of modelling was mostly superb sometimes it seemed down to the last blade of grass  but they just seemed to lack atmosphere. That may have something to do with the way we view the full size world, ignoring the gaps between the bits we're interested in but I suspect it's more about such "true scale" layouts not selecting the parts of the scene that give it life and character and not cutting out enough of the components that don't. That doesn't always apply. At Tolworth last year I really enjoyed Plumpton Green and I believe that was only slightly forshortened but there seemed to be enough going on along the full length of the layout. The fact that it was worked authentically using miniature LBSC block instruments and lever frames in full view  just added to the interest. A nice touch was that the block bells in the adjoinng signal boxes - i.e. the fiddle yards- were replaced by lights so you only heard and saw the Plumpton Green "signal box".

 

To no surprise my favourite layout at Ally Pally this year was Peter Denny's Leighton Buzzard. Despite its size, objectively I know that the platform, barely double the length of the station building, is absurdly short, it conveyed the essential features of a terminus in a country town and that sense was only heightened by it being operated in an apparently realistic way with working block instruments and signalling. 

 

I wonder if the difference in interest is that it is something of a spectrum with "model railways", that model as far as possible the entire operation of a railway, at one end and "railway models"  focussing on individual models with the layout providing a suitable setting  (catwalk?) for the locos and stock to be admired in, at the other. Where we are on that spectrum may determine the type of layout we generally prefer and neither of course neither is the moral superior of the other.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Pacific231G

[Chris M]

It may well be that "soul" is more in the eye of the beholder than anywhere else. If you can feel what the layout is about then it probably has soul to you. 

 

Also it maybe that "soul" is how all the elements of a layout come together. What is appropriate for one layout may be completely inappropriate for another in terms of soul. Perhaps the most important thing is for all elements of a layout to stay true to the "rasin d'etre" for the layout. Even something like a Lego layout, which is completely wrong on all modelling counts, can have a certain charm or soul and be nice to watch for a short time.

 

If a layout is little more than a means of providing a surround for prized locos to run up and down (perhaps a typical engine shed layout) then I usually won't feel the soul but others will. 

[Gilbert]

Not even the brewery? 

 

G.

In defence of Calcutta sidings I also seem to recall the  brick bridge is a superb and atmospheric bit of modelling?

[TEAMYAKIMA]

To quote Alfred Hitchcock "What is drama but life with the dull bits cut out"

 

 

I couldn't agree more!!

 

When we go to an exhibition like Ally Pally we need to see 'drama' and by the word 'drama' I don't necessarily mean buildings on fire, funerals, weddings etc - all the clichés we've seen a hundred times. What I mean by 'drama' is things that replicate everyday life in order to keep our attention when there isn't a train movement to hold our attention - something that shows that the exhibitor understands the location and period of the setting just as much as they understand the railway aspect of the layout.

[Craigw]

I couldn't agree more!!

 

When we go to an exhibition like Ally Pally we need to see 'drama' and by the word 'drama' I don't necessarily mean buildings on fire, funerals, weddings etc - all the clichés we've seen a hundred times. What I mean by 'drama' is things that replicate everyday life in order to keep our attention when there isn't a train movement to hold our attention - something that shows that the exhibitor understands the location and period of the setting just as much as they understand the railway aspect of the layout.

 

True, but when you walk out and about, you do not see that everywhere. In most places you see...nothing out of the ordinary. Modelling nothing can be a good thing to, not everything needs to be bubbling with "detail"  

 

We have become so used to looking at models that at times it pays to look at the real thing. "Boring" locations like Calcutta sidings are a dime a dozen and rarely modelled.

 

There is nothing wrong with being different.

 

Craig W

[Bomag]

I was at York show and two layouts had effectively units, a lot of GM locos and the odd Class 70. Good looking layouts and stock, but boring (like many GW layouts). One layout also apparently runs stock appropriate for sectorisation to privatisation and had a much more varied stock.

[TEAMYAKIMA]

We have become so used to looking at models that at times it pays to look at the real thing. "Boring" locations like Calcutta sidings are a dime a dozen and rarely modelled.

 

 

I have no problem with anyone deliberately setting out to build a boring layout at home - my issue is when people charge me money to view such a layout at an exhibition. Model railway exhibitions should be viewed as being part of the entertainement industry - layouts should entertain the paying public.

Edited April 2, 2018 by TEAMYAKIMA

[newbryford]

I have no problem with anyone deliberately setting out to build a boring layout at home - my issue is when people charge me money to view such a layout at an exhibition. Model railway exhibitions should be viewed as being part of the entertainement industry - layouts should entertain the paying public.

 

Harsh statement.

 

It's your choice to pay money and visit the show. (and were you not there operating another layout anyway - if not, then I've mis-read something somewhere)

There is plenty of information out there to preview a show and find out if it's full of boring layouts or not.

 

What entertains one, will not entertain another (as you've already alluded to in a previous posting regarding your upcoming appearance at a show).

Edited April 2, 2018 by newbryford

[LBRJ]

True, but when you walk out and about, you do not see that everywhere. In most places you see...nothing out of the ordinary. Modelling nothing can be a good thing to, not everything needs to be bubbling with "detail"  

 

We have become so used to looking at models that at times it pays to look at the real thing. "Boring" locations like Calcutta sidings are a dime a dozen and rarely modelled.

 

There is nothing wrong with being different.

 

Craig W

 

The first part of the bold answers the second.

[Craigw]

The first part of the bold answers the second.

 

Did you notice I put quotes around "boring"?

 

The typical is convincing.

 

A contrived 4' long shunting plank might look pretty and have "soul" (whatever that means) but it is far away from reality.

 

If modelling models is your thing, then go for it.

 

Craig W

[Clive Mortimore]

I have no problem with anyone deliberately setting out to build a boring layout at home - my issue is when people charge me money to view such a layout at an exhibition. Model railway exhibitions should be viewed as being part of the entertainement industry - layouts should entertain the paying public.

Wow hang on there, I see many layouts at model railway exhibitions that do nothing for me, where other people really enjoy them. We are exhibiting our modelling not what the public, and at many shows the public are out numbered by fellow modellers, think we should be modelling for them. 

 

As for entertainment, model railway exhibitions are modelling exhibitions not part of the entertainment industry. Go and find a theater show, a rock gig, a musical where for a fiver you can enjoy yourself for four or five hours? We are modellers not showmen. Last time I applied to Equity they said uncoupling 4mm wagons fitted with  three link couplings was not a defined circus trick so I did not qualify. 

 

The Hanging Hill team warming up for a days exhibiting.

[LBRJ]

Wow hang on there, I see many layouts at model railway exhibitions that do nothing for me, where other people really enjoy them. We are exhibiting our modelling not what the public, and at many shows the public are out numbered by fellow modellers, think we should be modelling for them. 

 

As for entertainment, model railway exhibitions are modelling exhibitions not part of the entertainment industry. Go and find a theater show, a rock gig, a musical where for a fiver you can enjoy yourself for four or five hours? We are modellers not showmen. Last time I applied to Equity they said uncoupling 4mm wagons fitted with  three link couplings was not a defined circus trick so I did not qualify. 

 

The Hanging Hill team warming up for a days exhibiting.

 

 

If people did take you up on that, that would be the end of the exhibition end of your hobby though.

[wombatofludham]

I have no problem with anyone deliberately setting out to build a boring layout - my issue is when people charge me money to view such a layout at an exhibition. Model railway exhibitions should be viewed as being part of the entertainement industry - layouts should entertain the paying public.

Depends on the kind of show the exhibition is, and what market it is aimed at. I would argue the "mega2 shows with large amounts of trade stands, large numbers of layouts and demonstration stands are less aimed at Granny and Grandpa Numpty and their grandkids and are aimed more at the hardcore enthusiast. At these shows, I would expect a mix of constant action large layouts and smaller, more intimate layouts displaying the particular interests of the exhibitor. If not of particular interest to me so be it, but I would respect their right to model the operations to please them, and would appreciate the model and not feel that I had been "diddled" just because I hadn't seen a train move.

 

Smaller shows and those held by preserved railways however do tend to be more aimed as a family event, and the public will be expecting more action and less adherence to a strict railway timetable. It's what we do on the Dolgellau layout open days, we've developed a running sequence that combines continuous activity with a slightly unprototypical timetable that sees three different trains running, passing both at Penmaenpool and Dolgellau, with occasionally a fourth train (goods) backed into Dolgellau yard, a level of activity the real line probably only achieved on a couple of summer Saturdays a year, but we are most definitely in the "education through enjoyment" category and are there to entertain the visitors. I think the family Numpty and their grandkids would expect to see trains moving, and lots of little fun details to discover when looking over the layouts, which is why on my former exhibition layout "King's Oak" I had Crossroads being filmed outside the motel of the same name, and why on the Dolgellau layout we have a car crash scene at a level crossing with nurse, doctor and stretcher party moving the injured to the ambulance, and the Liverpool MRC who built the layout modelled the Camping Coach which always gets people asking questions about it.

 

Different forms of entertainment catering for what effectively are two different types of market. I suspect the number of non-enthusiast families visiting Warley or Ally Pally who want non-stop entertainment for their admission must be lower, as a percentage, than the smaller shows with a more mixed audience.

[LBRJ]

Did you notice I put quotes around "boring"?

 

The typical is convincing.

 

A contrived 4' long shunting plank might look pretty and have "soul" (whatever that means) but it is far away from reality.

 

If modelling models is your thing, then go for it.

 

Craig W

 

I noticed.

Did you not notice that I pointed out earlier that a flat straight railway through a non descript town in the east Midlands was probably not the best place  to start to look for charisma?

 

Keir Hardy and his team of EM chaps seem to be able to create charisma by the bucket load with a similar brief.

[Craigw]

I noticed.

Did you not notice that I pointed out earlier that a flat straight railway through a non descript town in the east Midlands was probably not the best place  to start to look for charisma?

 

Keir Hardy and his team of EM chaps seem to be able to create charisma by the bucket load with a similar brief.

 

The very vast majority of the railway system does not have charisma. Mostly, it is track running through the landscape - be that rural or urban.

 

People model what they like and are attracted to certain things.The fact that  you think something is boring or sterile does not actually mean it is.

 

Craig w

[LBRJ]

The very vast majority of the railway system does not have charisma. Mostly, it is track running through the landscape - be that rural or urban.

 

People model what they like and are attracted to certain things.The fact that  you think something is boring or sterile does not actually mean it is.

 

Craig w

 

That is correct, and personally I do not dislike Calcutta Sidings; that got brought in much later.

 

My original point was to ask if too many D&E people still* focussed too much on the traction and stock and not enough on the time and place of the setting they run through.

 

*Back in the day Lima diesels were more like a kit you had to take apart and then rebuild, that's not the case now, and I don't think** sufficient attention is often paid to the world around the trains.

 

** That means it is a personal opinion

[wombatofludham]

The very vast majority of the railway system does not have charisma. Mostly, it is track running through the landscape - be that rural or urban.

 

People model what they like and are attracted to certain things.The fact that  you think something is boring or sterile does not actually mean it is.

 

Craig w

Actually a train running through the landscape is what generates charisma, or more accurately, a sense of engagement. However, I do think a lot of layouts put a bit too much emphasis on the railway and not enough on the surroundings. To be successful, a railway should look like it came after the surroundings, not the surroundings fitted in the awkward bits where you couldn't possibly squeeze yet another siding. My current plans for the shed layout place the railway at the back of the scenery, not in front of it, to emphasise the point that the railway had to thread itself through an existing landscape.

 

As I said earlier, my ideal layout would be about 20-30ft long, open countryside, plain track, probably half a million pounds worth of stock, polychromatic lighting rig to simulate dawn-dusk and night, ambient sounds, no shunting just watching the trains enter their stage, act their socks off creating a sense of place, then going back off backstage. It would bore the operational obsessives off their man-boobs but there would be plenty of engagement of a different sort.

 

I once saw an O gauge layout based on Dawlish Warren but with a variety of stock. It was a series of vignettes, so you had a nude bathing party, a family bathing area, a quieter area, all brilliantly lit and with ambient sounds of seagulls, people and even transistor radio music. The presentation was fabulous, it drew you in and instantly created a sense of place, time and connection. Yet it was trains passing through almost as incidental extras in a play. It still gives me a deal of pleasure just remembering the first time I saw it, so I would argue track running through a landscape can be just as charismatic and engaging as a BLT or grimy motive power depot.