Does "D&E" modelling put scale before soul?

[Benjamin Brady]

Sorry, but I fundamentally disagree that much or most of the real railway today is boring. If one is a traction obsessive or find the clanking of buffers in a marshalling yard more soothing than a serenade, then one is looking through a very dim microscope and missing out on a lot of other interest.

 

Last time I went back to the Midlands I was early for an appointment so parked up at Rugeley TV to watch the traffic. It might not have been the AC electrics of yore (although the 86s and 90s are still going on multimodal) and passenger traffic might have been Pendolini, Voyagers, Desiros and 170s and not a lot else, but it was fascinating to watch the real railway being relevant and important to the economy. Also to see just how important Rugeley TV is now as a station - I remember when the railways were in managed decline and Rugeley had a train service where you needed a calendar, not a timetable, and I just thought the constant stream of heavily loaded multi-modal freight, and the near Underground frequency of Pendolini and Voyagers was so fascinating, and the number of people using the station was great to see.

Even Fairbourne with it's two hourly service of 158s and the occasional excitement of a yellow peril Class 97, which would send some obsessives to sleep, has it's appeal. The train service is the best ever, and well used, the station buildings still exist, now nicely refurbished as a home, the level crossing has been modernised but there are still bits of the old railway to look at, and that's fun in it's own right. Riding on the train is just as much fun in a 158 as a Park Royal DMU when you look beyond and observe what is around you.

 Good morning

 

  Glad I read this thread , thought we were in the minority here ,  are latest creation is exactly that ,watching the trains go by , yes we did build it to entertain people , we all love seeing the classic layouts as we do , but we thought for once we would target the family audience , with  this layout , if you took a child to the railway today you would see those trains on our layout and they can correspond to what they have seen ,

 

   90% of the trains have had work done on them , so are not RTR , also all trains are in correct formations , some taken from the PSB at Carlisle . ok the OHLE is not great but being improved for next exhibition .

 

  Learnt a lot and Mk 11 is on its way , we enjoying running present day trains in the countryside ,

 

  More so we might have a west of England ( Cornwall ) mainline soon, again running through the countryside , watch this space .

 

Thanks All

[Classsix T]

If you are a die-hard steam fan with rose tinted specs who hates 'boxes on wheels' and anything post 1968 then it stands to reason that you very probably wont see anything at all in a diesel layout, no matter how high a standard the modelling is. Hardly rocket science. It's very possible that the builder of Calcutta Sidings might walk away from your layout as well, especially if it is full of kettles. The thing is , will he ever be afforded the opportunity to comment on your layout in the same way as you have on his.?

An unfair critique on someone voicing a personal opinion. Not helped by then pontificating on said modeller's public offerings that I myself have found fascinating, though I share not his desire to replicate scale or prototype, being interested merely as a Japanophile.

 

Does the builder of Calcutta care? I very much doubt it.

 

C6T.

[wombatofludham]

I would hope that any thinking railway modeller would look at all layouts at an exhibition whether they chime with their interests or not. Even on models you personally don't like the subject of (and I can't fathom why some enthusiasts are so narrow focussed when there is so much to find out about, I'm interested in just about everything to a greater or lesser degree from early Georgian and Victorian railways to Continental and light rail) there will be things to stop and look at, and get inspiration from, and appreciate the artistry, technicality and presentation of the layout regardless of the moving objects.

 

It seems incredibly narrow minded just to dismiss a layout simply because it's not in their sphere of interest.

[Clive Mortimore]

I would hope that any thinking railway modeller would look at all layouts at an exhibition whether they chime with their interests or not. Even on models you personally don't like the subject of (and I can't fathom why some enthusiasts are so narrow focussed when there is so much to find out about, I'm interested in just about everything to a greater or lesser degree from early Georgian and Victorian railways to Continental and light rail) there will be things to stop and look at, and get inspiration from, and appreciate the artistry, technicality and presentation of the layout regardless of the moving objects.

 

It seems incredibly narrow minded just to dismiss a layout simply because it's not in their sphere of interest.

I do. Even layouts that are supposed to be of my interest.

 

I have started at least 7 diesel depot layouts 4 have been exhibited and two appeared in the model press. So you would think I would look at other diesel depot layouts. Many turn me off because of the lack of research. Fuel tanks that hold less than the three TTA s sat next to them. Northlight ex steam depots.....most of these were re-roofed before the 1955 modernisation plan. Un-workable track plans.

 

I have done quite a bit of research into OLE and I am where possible willing to share this with other people, so when I see a layout with OLE you would think I would stop and stare at it. No the first thing I do is count the number of mast, if more than 14 and there is no mid point anchor or an over lap I walk away no matter how wonderful the rolling stock is, the scenery, signalling or what have you.

[Mike Storey]

Another view of the role of exhibitors at MRE's in the April edition of RM - p 323. The author, Chris Gardner, is a professional musician and the gist of the article is about putting on a show.

[Clive Mortimore]

Interesting comment Mike. I get the idea although I have not read that particular article. However I did spend some time on club committees and as exhibition manager. A lot of modellers no matter how good seem to miss the point that the moment you open the exhibition door to the public you are then in the entertainment business and not dedicated railway modelling. The general public sure as hell have a lot of other attractions to spend their hard earned cash on. The competition is keen.

 

Some of the really successful events now seem to combine a wider range of the model hobby with boats, aircraft model engineering in a number of forms, road vehicles bringing in a wider spectrum of trade support. I undersdtand that is anathema to the purist but we have to liove in the real world if we are to further the aims of our hobby in all its forms.

 

regards

I think the title of model railway EXHIBITION says what is going on.

Do you go to an art exhibition and expect the artist to tell you jokes?

Do you go and see a exhibit in a museum and expect a 3000 year old mummy to dance for you?

 

Exhibit "Publicly display (a work of art or item of interest) in an art gallery or museum or at a trade fair."

 

Entertain "Provide (someone) with amusement or enjoyment."

 

Both Oxford Dictionary

 

I hope people when they visit a model railway exhibition do get enjoyment but that is a bonus.

 

I have lugged my layout to what is supposed to be a model railway exhibition which turned out to be a craft fair. Myself and the other railway modellers felt right out of place and as if we were in a freak show. I now steer well clear of mixed events.

 

 

Meet the gang, the boys are here, the boys to entertain yoouuuuuu.......

[Mike Storey]

Both Mr Rag, sorry, Oily, and Clive, sorry, Mr Mortimore, demonstrate the clash of opinion.

 

One of our issues, IMHO (and knock me down with a feather if I'm wrong), is that most of us in this hobby are introverts. That may not be entirely apparent from the bonhomie and passionate debate often evident on here. But we are often only truly at ease with others of the same mould, and there are many of us that prefer to work alone.

 

So the challenge of publicly presenting the end result of many hundreds of hours of our toil, which we expect to be appreciated in its own right, is not necessarily our strength. There are few artists, sculptors, photographers or similar, that stick around at their exhibitions to plug their work, unless they are trying hard to flog it. (The latter is a key difference).

 

I guess we each have to understand why we want to exhibit our wares in the first place. I did it only six or so times, and only one of those was all my own work, before I gave up, thinking it was just not worth the snide comments, incredible effort and huge cost (despite direct expenses refunded). But many continue to do this, willingly and enthusiastically. If you choose to do so, and thank goodness you do, then there has to be a compromise between art for art's sake and giving the public (whatever that is) what they want. Many get this right, but many do not.

 

Wot I do kno, is that the standard of layouts these days is light years ahead of those exhibitions I slavishly attended in my youth, as is the standard of presentation, operation and the approachability of layout operators. The ones who stand out are the ones that remind me of my youth......

Edited April 6, 2018 by Mike Storey

[Zomboid]

.

Do you go to an art exhibition and expect the artist to tell you jokes?

Do you go and see a exhibit in a museum and expect a 3000 year old mummy to dance for you?

 

Those things are impossible. If the artist was in attendance and standing next to their work then it's not unreasonable to expect to interact with them.

 

That has nothing whatsoever to do with whether that work has soul or not, though.

[Mike Storey]

Those things are impossible. If the artist was in attendance and standing next to their work then it's not unreasonable to expect to interact with them.

 

That has nothing whatsoever to do with whether that work has soul or not, though.

 

True - they would probably be dead.

[jjb1970]

Talking of being dead and exhibition rage, I've just taken delivery of one of these which has replaced my trusty megger tester for exhibition use:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34131334

 

You have all been warned.

[Pacific231G]

Talking of being dead and exhibition rage, I've just taken delivery of one of these which has replaced my trusty megger tester for exhibition use:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34131334

 

You have all been warned.

I'm sure there are people in the USofA who firmly believe that the Second Amendment gives individual citizens the right to posses thermonuclear weapons.

[newbryford]

I'm sure there are people in the USofA who firmly believe that the Second Amendment gives individual citizens the right to posses thermonuclear weapons.

 

It may be the only solution to some unwanted odours at exhibitions....

 

Anyway, now that this has turned into yet another "what do I want to/not want to see at exhibitions" thread........

[Clive Mortimore]

Both Mr Rag, sorry, Oily, and Clive, sorry, Mr Mortimore, demonstrate the clash of opinion.

 

One of our issues, IMHO (and knock me down with a feather if I'm wrong), is that most of us in this hobby are introverts. That may not be entirely apparent from the bonhomie and passionate debate often evident on here. But we are often only truly at ease with others of the same mould, and there are many of us that prefer to work alone.

 

So the challenge of publicly presenting the end result of many hundreds of hours of our toil, which we expect to be appreciated in its own right, is not necessarily our strength. There are few artists, sculptors, photographers or similar, that stick around at their exhibitions to plug their work, unless they are trying hard to flog it. (The latter is a key difference).

 

I guess we each have to understand why we want to exhibit our wares in the first place. I did it only six or so times, and only one of those was all my own work, before I gave up, thinking it was just not worth the snide comments, incredible effort and huge cost (despite direct expenses refunded). But many continue to do this, willingly and enthusiastically. If you choose to do so, and thank goodness you do, then there has to be a compromise between art for art's sake and giving the public (whatever that is) what they want. Many get this right, but many do not.

 

Wot I do kno, is that the standard of layouts these days is light years ahead of those exhibitions I slavishly attended in my youth, as is the standard of presentation, operation and the approachability of layout operators. The ones who stand out are the ones that remind me of my youth......

Hi Mike

 

I am far from an introvert, I am not shy in front of TV cameras, live interviews on radio, speaking in committee rooms in Parliament or standing up in front of the Royal College of Nursing congress delivering a controversial motion. So engaging with the public, having a giggle with them, discussing my modelling with them, allowing them to fondle my half made  stuff on demo stands is nothing but I am exhibiting not entertaining.

[newbryford]

, allowing them to fondle my half made  stuff on demo stands is nothing but I am exhibiting not entertaining.

 

That's what you think...... - especially when it comes to the fondling part.....

 

 

Mick

[wombatofludham]

At the risk of getting everyone's back up, including the English Language Defence Force, I present the concept of "Infotainment".

 

It's what we do with the Dolgellau layout. Inform and entertain. Inform on the history, by pointing out where the different elements are in relation to real life by way of "before and after" photos hung above the layout, and by having photos and other artefacts displayed in the room, and entertain by making the trains make lots of noise, run to a ridiculously impossible Metro style timetable and occasionally derail to enable the Hand of God to descend and put our suicidal Collet Goods back on the rails (well we are in a Chapel after all, and God is acknowledged to be a railway enthusiast).

 

Perhaps in one way or another all exhibitions are infotainment. People get enjoyment from watching the models, marvelling at the skills involved, and where layout operators engage, possibly learn something into the process.

[LBRJ]

We seem to have wandered off into exhibition land again -That's not what  I am on about in the OP. 

Indeed, at the occasional exhibition I do attend (its S4 North soon ) I would rather see all the different things I am not into so much -  it is the huge variety that makes this hobby so good

But while we are there, if you are showing your layout of your own free will its never a bad thing to smile chat and be courteous to the paying punter (as almost everyone I ever talk to is)

[grahame]

We seem to have wandered off into exhibition land again -That's not what  I am on about in the OP. 

 

Yes, maybe. But after 7 pages of contributions it would appear that the original OP premise that D&E modelling puts scale before soul is well and truly nailed: it most certainly does not any more so than any other type or genre of railway modelling. And I guess having discussed, voted on and dismissed the motion the thread is bound to wander off in other directions, just like most other threads.

;-)

 

G

[TEAMYAKIMA]

Yes, maybe. But after 7 pages of contributions it would appear that the original OP premise that D&E modelling puts scale before soul is well and truly nailed: it most certainly does not any more so than any other type or genre of railway modelling. And I guess having discussed, voted on and dismissed the motion the thread is bound to wander off in other directions

 

I really genuinely had not wanted to get involved in this thread again, but I cannot agree with that statement. What I think we have agreed on is that there are two schools of thought ; one agreeing and one disagreeing and that further discussion is pointless as the one camp will never persuade the other camp over to its view.

 

The other thing I think we have agreed is that there is disagreement as to what the purpose of exhibiting is and that the 'target market' of various layouts (of all genres) varies - from families to extreme enthusiasts - and all variations have value, they are just DIFFERENT.

[TEAMYAKIMA]

At the risk of getting everyone's back up, including the English Language Defence Force, I present the concept of "Infotainment".

 

It's what we do with the Dolgellau layout. Inform and entertain. Inform on the history, by pointing out where the different elements are in relation to real life by way of "before and after" photos hung above the layout, and by having photos and other artefacts displayed in the room, and entertain by making the trains make lots of noise, run to a ridiculously impossible Metro style timetable and occasionally derail to enable the Hand of God to descend and put our suicidal Collet Goods back on the rails (well we are in a Chapel after all, and God is acknowledged to be a railway enthusiast).

 

Perhaps in one way or another all exhibitions are infotainment. People get enjoyment from watching the models, marvelling at the skills involved, and where layout operators engage, possibly learn something into the process.

 

Absolutely, brilliant - you have summed up my views perfectly!

[grahame]

The other thing I think we have agreed is that there is disagreement as to what the purpose of exhibiting is and that the 'target market' of various layouts (of all genres) varies - from families to extreme enthusiasts - and all variations have value, they are just DIFFERENT.

I think you've fallen in to the trap of assuming it's about exhibiting (and D&E layouts exhibited) whereas the OP doesn't mention that. Sure there will be some who think D&E modeling puts detail before soul but you could not possibly know how all modellers approach their modelling and the results they achieve, especially for those who do not exhibit or might not even build layouts. And the fact that there are D&E layouts that are not souless as well as steamy ones that are souless rather confirms that the premises is incorrect (especially for all D&E).

 

G

[dj_crisp]

Hmm just read some of this thread and learned the following....

 

1. Scale is far easier to measure (with a tape measure)

2. Soul is very much to the individuals taste and everyone's different.

3. I'm never going to exhibit my stuff as it will never be true to scale (after all I bodge most of it) or have enough soul for some.

4. I've learnt I'll never get anything right on my railway... (I like buddleia as it can add a bit of colour but when did the line side invasion occur... lol)

5. I like my EWS 60.. and I like my NSE 50s. They appear together in my household

 

Cheers

Will

[jjb1970]

I'm sure there are people in the USofA who firmly believe that the Second Amendment gives individual citizens the right to posses thermonuclear weapons.

Quite right too. The constitution talks about the right to bear arms, doesn't talk about limits on magazine size, rate of fire, nuclear yield etc. If a red blooded American patriot wants to own a stealth bomber and thermonuclear devices then it's their constitutional right. However, common sense must prevail and personally I'd draw the line at women who use stiletto heels as offensive weapons, that's just going too far.

[wombatofludham]

Hmm just read some of this thread and learned the following....

 

1. Scale is far easier to measure (with a tape measure)

2. Soul is very much to the individuals taste and everyone's different.

3. I'm never going to exhibit my stuff as it will never be true to scale (after all I bodge most of it) or have enough soul for some.

4. I've learnt I'll never get anything right on my railway... (I like buddleia as it can add a bit of colour but when did the line side invasion occur... lol)

5. I like my EWS 60.. and I like my NSE 50s. They appear together in my household

 

Cheers

Will

Good for you, model railways are a hobby, not a Papal punishment for the heresy of running RTR. One day I intend to bring my APT-E to Dolgellau, driven by Dr Who. That should set the cat amongst the pigeons.

 

You've also hit the nail with the Buddleia. My shed layout will hopefully represent 1967-2006 and I too am agonising over the Buddleia debut as I would quite like to have the odd bit sprouting from the brick embankment but to be honest I only recall it being a major issue post 1995-6, so I'm not sure whether to incorporate it or not. One good thing about it though is it gives me a good excuse to waste inordinate amounts of time trawling Flickr to try and pinpoint the time when Buddleia became a common feature sprouting from brickwork!

[TEAMYAKIMA]

I think you've fallen in to the trap of assuming it's about exhibiting (and D&E layouts exhibited) whereas the OP doesn't mention that.

 

Yes, I agree with you up to a point, but to a great extent the issue only means anything with regards to an exhibition layout. What anyone does on his own home layout is totally and utterly his/her own business and so others (like me) only have a right to comment on layouts that are exhibited to the public.

[Mike Storey]

Good for you, model railways are a hobby, not a Papal punishment for the heresy of running RTR. One day I intend to bring my APT-E to Dolgellau, driven by Dr Who. That should set the cat amongst the pigeons.

 

You've also hit the nail with the Buddleia. My shed layout will hopefully represent 1967-2006 and I too am agonising over the Buddleia debut as I would quite like to have the odd bit sprouting from the brick embankment but to be honest I only recall it being a major issue post 1995-6, so I'm not sure whether to incorporate it or not. One good thing about it though is it gives me a good excuse to waste inordinate amounts of time trawling Flickr to try and pinpoint the time when Buddleia became a common feature sprouting from brickwork!

 

I can utterly assure you that Buddlea was becoming a major "problem" lineside, at least on the SR, from the late 1970's at least. That is from having to hack my way through it on engineering jobs, trying to locate mileposts, rarely used telephone posts, boundary fencing, even gates on one occasion, etc. and from pleading with the P/Way to come and hack it back on sidings that we wanted to start using again. It was fairly easy to get rid of in those days, due to the weedkiller solutions we could still legally use. The real problems began when the roots grew into brickwork or around or under trunking, and then when the efficacy of weedkillers was reduced by legislation, as well as the reduction in budgets for lineside vegetation control, but those only became major issues over the following decade, Buddlea did not grow everywhere and there also different types - the most invasive is not the tallest.

 

It was definitely growing out of the brickwork of the road overbridge at Queenborough in 1982. So plant it at your leisure!