Does "D&E" modelling put scale before soul?

[Craigw]

That is correct, and personally I do not dislike Calcutta Sidings; that got brought in much later.

 

My original point was to ask if too many D&E people still* focussed too much on the traction and stock and not enough on the time and place of the setting they run through.

 

*Back in the day Lima diesels were more like a kit you had to take apart and then rebuild, that's not the case now, and I don't think** sufficient attention is often paid to the world around the trains.

 

** That means it is a personal opinion

 

I do not think focussing on locos and stock is a thing that is peculiar to D&E modelling, though I should add that the D&E modellers (at least in Australia) is skewed towards livery collecting.

 

What separates good modelling from the rest (in my opinion) is attention to detail - I do not mean detail in the form of clutter, rather observing and modelling reality.

 

Too many people seem to model other models, rather than looking at photos or observing the real deal.

 

In my opinion this really shows the diversity of railway modelling.

 

Discussions about atmosphere or soul are tough because everyone has a different opinion.

 

I model the GWR in the 1920s and has been remarked GWR BLT are everywhere.

 

How many are genuinely convincing though?

 

I will name Bodmin and Faringdon as two that convince me.

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

Edited April 3, 2018 by Craigw

[TEAMYAKIMA]

Wow hang on there, I see many layouts at model railway exhibitions that do nothing for me, where other people really enjoy them. We are exhibiting our modelling not what the public, and at many shows the public are out numbered by fellow modellers, think we should be modelling for them.

 

Clive, I think you have slightly misunderstood my use of the term 'paying public' - to me the 'paying public' is everyone who come through the door at an exhibition - I do not mean non-enthusiasts, I mean simply everyone - enthusiast and non-enthusiast. Perhaps the term 'paying public' does have implications and so maybe a better expression to explain my thinking might be a 'paying audience'.

 

In a way all of us on both sides of the debate agree on one thing - much/most of the real railway is now boring. The debate seems to me about how much we are prepared to 'alter that reality' in order to enhance what we put on show to a paying audience.

Edited April 2, 2018 by TEAMYAKIMA

[LBRJ]

oh I agree that there is too much modeling models, and often each replica drifts ever more slightly from reality.

I like all sorts of model railways, from the very derivative to the inch perfect copy; it really is a broad church and long may it stay that way.

 

I also have an eye for matters GW/WR and for me that stand out BLT by far is Ashburton by John Birkett Smith, closely followed by a variation on the theme by Chris Lammacraft (who also did a fab Hemyock) and Iain Rice's wonderful Trerice if we lose the passenger trains

[wombatofludham]

Sorry, but I fundamentally disagree that much or most of the real railway today is boring. If one is a traction obsessive or find the clanking of buffers in a marshalling yard more soothing than a serenade, then one is looking through a very dim microscope and missing out on a lot of other interest.

 

Last time I went back to the Midlands I was early for an appointment so parked up at Rugeley TV to watch the traffic. It might not have been the AC electrics of yore (although the 86s and 90s are still going on multimodal) and passenger traffic might have been Pendolini, Voyagers, Desiros and 170s and not a lot else, but it was fascinating to watch the real railway being relevant and important to the economy. Also to see just how important Rugeley TV is now as a station - I remember when the railways were in managed decline and Rugeley had a train service where you needed a calendar, not a timetable, and I just thought the constant stream of heavily loaded multi-modal freight, and the near Underground frequency of Pendolini and Voyagers was so fascinating, and the number of people using the station was great to see.

Even Fairbourne with it's two hourly service of 158s and the occasional excitement of a yellow peril Class 97, which would send some obsessives to sleep, has it's appeal. The train service is the best ever, and well used, the station buildings still exist, now nicely refurbished as a home, the level crossing has been modernised but there are still bits of the old railway to look at, and that's fun in it's own right. Riding on the train is just as much fun in a 158 as a Park Royal DMU when you look beyond and observe what is around you.

[TEAMYAKIMA]

I do not think focussing on locos and stock is a thing that is peculiar to D&E modelling.

 

What separates good modelling from the rest (in my opinion) is attention to detail - I do not mean detail in the form of clutter, rather observing and modelling reality.

 

 

I can willingly agree with that and, for the record, I can also agree that some layouts have too much 'interesting stuff'  just as in my opinion some can have too little.

 

And on that positive note I must leave this interesting discussion to make progress on my exhibition layout ... the clock is ticking!

[newbryford]

Clive, I think you have slightly misunderstood my use of the term 'paying public' - to me the 'paying public' is everyone who come through the door at an exhibition - I do not mean non-enthusiasts, I mean simply everyone - enthusiast and non-enthusiast. Perhaps the term 'paying public' does have implications and so maybe a better expression to explain my thinking might be a 'paying audience'.

 

In a way all of us on both sides of the debate agree on one thing - much/most of the real railway is now boring. The debate seems to me about how much we are prepared to 'alter that reality' in order to enhance what we put on show to a paying audience.

 

Sorry - how can you say "all of us" when I certainly don't agree with that statement?

 

I will agree that model railways are about "altering reality" as after all, we compromise in one way or another, be it gauge, scale, compression to fi the space, or even powering steam outline models with tiny electric motors.......

[Peter Kazmierczak]

The railway (and its surroundings), from a modellers viewpoint, are different today. Not worse or better, but different. It depends on want your modelling interests are.

 

Take the modern scene. I spent over four hours at Hayes on the GWML on Saturday morning. A constant stream of traffic - New IETs, our old friendly HSTs, still a few Turbos, lots of new electric Cl.387s, Heathrow Express, Heathrow Connect and one freight (Cl.66 Grain - Margam). Varied liveries too. Trains came, went and passed through. But no shunting, no detaching of vehicles - basically a big round and roundy layout.

But it all seemed very cold and clinical. Even the surrounds were impersonal and rather daunting. 

 

But if you want something more operationally interesting then perhaps another location or time-frame might suit. Some of us want something smaller and more cosy - still found today - but not as common as in ye olde days.

[Clive Mortimore]

As Peter has said today's railway is different but still holds my interest when I have time to stand and stare at it. Last summer I was waiting for my son at Lincoln station, a few DMUs mainly single car or pacer thingies in a bright livery with a 66 on a boxes train and a shiny red 60 with some very grotty tankers which I think were carrying TEA as that was written on them. It was sunny day, the station looked lovely with its 5 platforms and its center through roads, OK the signalling is now colour light but that too is modellerable. In fact the scene appeared very modellerable. Loads to model, with a variety of stock, some trains even terminated, sadly no loco change. We just need to open our eyes and see what is there.

 

Round the corner to the station in the Digitrains shop is a model of the station....wow.

[Pacific231G]

Actually a train running through the landscape is what generates charisma, or more accurately, a sense of engagement. However, I do think a lot of layouts put a bit too much emphasis on the railway and not enough on the surroundings. To be successful, a railway should look like it came after the surroundings, not the surroundings fitted in the awkward bits where you couldn't possibly squeeze yet another siding. My current plans for the shed layout place the railway at the back of the scenery, not in front of it, to emphasise the point that the railway had to thread itself through an existing landscape.

 

As I said earlier, my ideal layout would be about 20-30ft long, open countryside, plain track, probably half a million pounds worth of stock, polychromatic lighting rig to simulate dawn-dusk and night, ambient sounds, no shunting just watching the trains enter their stage, act their socks off creating a sense of place, then going back off backstage. It would bore the operational obsessives off their man-boobs but there would be plenty of engagement of a different sort.

 

I once saw an O gauge layout based on Dawlish Warren but with a variety of stock. It was a series of vignettes, so you had a nude bathing party, a family bathing area, a quieter area, all brilliantly lit and with ambient sounds of seagulls, people and even transistor radio music. The presentation was fabulous, it drew you in and instantly created a sense of place, time and connection. Yet it was trains passing through almost as incidental extras in a play. It still gives me a deal of pleasure just remembering the first time I saw it, so I would argue track running through a landscape can be just as charismatic and engaging as a BLT or grimy motive power depot.

Hi Mark

If your dream layout appears at an exhibition, and I hope one day it will, I suspect I will look at it for as few minutes, admire the modelling and then move on to something that interests me more. That's absolutely fine because I'm certain that others will really enjoy it and  above all it will have given you enormous pleasure and satisfaction to build and show it. However, If the scene your trains are running through is sufficiently engaging then I probably will linger; it wasn't the fairly simple operation that made Pempoul a continuing must see for me and it's probably not the trains, superbly modelled though they are, that most attract me to Pendon. 

 

There is, thank goodness, no "correct" way of building a model railway any more than there is a correct way of appreciating railways themselves. It's not even neccessary to be a railway enthusiast to enjoy railway modelling though most of us probably are.

 

What I don't agree with is the idea that the main purpose of an exhibition is to "entertain the paying public" in the sense of just providng something for them to watch. When I'm the paying public, I go to an exhibition to be informed, educated and entertained in roughly that order. I want to meet fellow modellers and discuss layouts I'm interested in as well as seeing them in operation and hopefully getting some inspiration for my own modelling. I see the entrance fee simply as the cost of bringing those layouts together plus a modest profit for the organisers to make it worth their while doing so. 

Edited April 3, 2018 by Pacific231G

[TEAMYAKIMA]

I think one of the reasons for disagreement in this thread is the lack of examples of what 'soul' is. I will take the liberty of using my own work to give one example of what I consider 'soul'.

 

Whilst my layout is not British I do have a couple of British diesels for the showcase ............. so here is one posed on my layout showing what I mean by soul .... the railway moving within an 'interesting' urban landscape .......................

 

 

 

 

 

[TEAMYAKIMA]

 

What I don't agree with is the idea that the main purpose of an exhibition is to "entertain the paying public". When I'm the paying public, I go to an exhibition to be informed, educated and entertained in roughly that order. I want to meet fellow modellers and discuss layouts I'm interested in as well as seeing them in operation and hopefully getting some inspiration for my own modelling. I see the entrance fee simply as the cost of bringing those layouts together plus a modest profit for the organisers to make it worth their while doing so. 

 

David

 

Yet again we get to different interpretations of words. You have said that you cannot agree with my statement and yet I can totally agree with your version. To me 'entertaining the paying public' certainly includes 'educating and informing' them and for good measure engaging with them.

Edited April 3, 2018 by TEAMYAKIMA

[Pacific231G]

David

 

Yet again we get to different interpretations of words. You have said that you cannot agree with my statement and yet I can totally agree with your version. To me 'entertaining the paying public' certainly includes 'educating and informing' them and for good measure engaging with them.

Hi

Yes it is simply a different interpretation of words and I've amended the post to reflect that. It wasn't really your use of the phrase that I was disagreeing with but the sentiment I have seen expressed on RMWEB that the job of layout exhibitors is to provide a continuous stream of "entertainment" to an audience who simply watch the action, much as you might in a concert or a theatre (though they do have intervals and don't usually perform non-stop for seven hours) Some layouts- notably the big roundy rounds- may do that, but expecting every layout to provide continuous action at all times- and that expectation has been expressed here before- seems a rather blinkered but apparently quite prevalent view. 

Edited April 3, 2018 by Pacific231G

[newbryford]

I think one of the reasons for disagreement in this thread is the lack of examples of what 'soul' is. I will take the liberty of using my own work to give one example of what I consider 'soul'.

 

Whilst my layout is not British I do have a couple of British diesels for the showcase ............. so here is one posed on my layout showing what I mean by soul .... the railway moving within an 'interesting' urban landscape .......................

 

DSC_0151.JPG

 

And I consider that Calcutta sidings has an interesting landscape. And it has moving trains.

 

So we can disagree what soul means to different people.

What you might call interesting is boring to others. What you call boring is interesting to others

 

I think the one thing that we can agree on is that you'll never please all of the people all of the time.]

 

Good luck with your layout at the exhibition

[grahame]

When I'm the paying public, I go to an exhibition to be informed, educated and entertained in roughly that order. I want to meet fellow modellers and discuss layouts I'm interested in as well as seeing them in operation and hopefully getting some inspiration for my own modelling.

 

Which goes to show that we are all different as my primary reasons (again in rough order) for attending an exhibition is to be inspired, to see something new and to have the opportunity to purchase modelling needs from traders.

 

G

[TEAMYAKIMA]

I think the one thing that we can agree on is that you'll never please all of the people all of the time.

 

Good luck with your layout at the exhibition

 

Thank you.

 

Going back to the discussion, perhaps I can again use my layout as an example of what I'm trying to get at when I've used the term 'entertaining the paying public' - and which I am explaining quite badly.

 

I am talking about 'niche' layouts ( and in that group I include D&E layouts) reaching out to a wider audience than their 'niche' market - making their niche hobby interesting, intriguing, inspirational, educational to those outside their niche interest group.

 

My layout is Chinese HO and that means that in an exhibition 'paying public' of perhaps 10,000 people there might be 5 or 6 with some kind of interest in my layout - no exhibition manager is going to invite me to their show! So I have deliberately set out to engage with the audience and explain, educate and interest them by explaining the prototype and what the model represents.

 

So we have a full-time dedicated group member standing outside the layout to answer visitor questions and go further by pro-actively engaging with visitors and giving them information.  And, although my layout is fictional, there will be photos of prototype locations that are replicated on the layout. In short we will try to widen the layout's appeal to those who have absolutely no interest in Chinese railways whatsoever. Thereby 'entertaining' them.

[HillsideDepot]

At a risk of going off at a tangent, the idea of "paying public" at an exhibition is an interesting one. What are they paying for? Not 'what do they think they are paying for', but what are they actually paying for? I'd suggest it is:

• Hall hire
• Insurance
• Direct expenses of the exhibitors (transport, lunches, and maybe accommodation)
• Possibly a surplus which will be donated to charity or returned to the organising club to subsidise its own activities.

What they most definitely are not paying for are the costs the layout owners have incurred in building and stocking the layouts on display. Exhibiting can be great fun, it does have a social side, but it is also hard work. And no one would expect to re-coup the costs of the actual layout.

 

Now, does that mean that people can build boring layouts? Yes, if they want to. Should exhibition managers book them? Ah, now there's the question! One would hope that the exhibition manager knows their "market". A steam layout wouldn't go down too well at DEMU Showcase, but likewise a 7mm one wouldn't be popular at TINGS. But that doesn't make either layout "wrong", just in the wrong setting. 

 

Is the modern railway boring? The only possible answer to that is whatever we each find interesting. But for me seeing a HST arrive at my local station following the build up of announcements or passengers shuffling from benches and waiting rooms, of platform staff walking to the platform extremity is still interesting. The shear bulk of the power car as it comes past, the hissing and whining of the coaches are a prelude to a relative quiet before the whistle blowing, door slamming, of departure until finally the Guard gives it two on the buzzer, the power cars wind up and the train departs, station staff exchanging a wave and perhaps a word with the Guard as he travels past, leaning from the drop light.

 

Of course little of that can be played out on a model, as it is as much about the people as it is the train. But is that any different to any other era? No.

 

To take another example, I've recently been watching some of the live rail cam feeds which are available on YouTube from the United States. Now, there are a couple of locations where there is great interest from the streets which the railroad runs through, but at other locations I find myself fascinated by the freight traffic passing before me. Have a reasonable idea of what many of the cars are carrying, but no knowledge of where they are running to or from - where the US steel works, car factories etc are. But in a way that takes my back to my childhood when train watching here was similar. Whilst I can look back now and wish I'd taken in more of what I was seeing, the trains were enough excitement. And in a way knowing that it was 8B78 from X to Y and the loco would only work as far as Z would have removed some of the "magic". Is it boring? You'll have to decide for yourself.

 

However what I do find annoying is the attitude that seems to say "it's not what I would model, so no one should exhibit it." That may not be what is meant, but it is sadly often how it comes across. After all, if we all liked the same who'd want to go to an exhibition where all the layouts were exactly alike? 

[Steven B]

I noticed.

Did you not notice that I pointed out earlier that a flat straight railway through a non descript town in the east Midlands was probably not the best place  to start to look for charisma?

 

 

 

I wouldn't have called the outskirts of a North Wales town a good place to look for charisma yet the team behind Mostyn have managed it. In many respects Mostyn and Calcutta Sidings are very similar - layouts with a procession of very well modelled trains running on very well modelled track. Each has a few sidings for added interest.

 

Mostyn as a layout has (in my eyes at least) much more soul/charisma than Calcutta Sidings. As I mentioned previously Calcutta Sidings is perhaps a little too clinical in its excecution - a little too perfect. Some shading in the tarmaced areas where it's been repaired or damged, some grubby dirt around the base of the buildings etc would lift the non-railway side of the fence. A few weeds (or evidence of weedkiller trains) & left overs from engineering works would enhance the track side.

 

That said, if my modelling efforts looked anything like Calcutta Sidings I'd be very happy.

 

Steven B.

[grahame]

I am talking about 'niche' layouts ( and in that group I include D&E layouts)

 

I'm not really sure what this in implying. If it is suggesting that all D&E layout's are niche then I wouldn't agree. If it is referring to those few D&E (and obviously some steamy ones) that could be considered niche then perhaps okay.

 

But I wouldn't expect just niche layouts to engage with the public although they probably need to make greater effort. And, of course, that doesn't mean they have more soul.

 

IMO I tend to find that the most souless layouts are those exclusively featuring RTR stock and RTP buildings in a fantasy location, and that certainly doesn't exclusively mean D&E.

 

G

Edited April 3, 2018 by grahame

[bazjones1711]

Crossley scrap

[Titan]

Crossley scrap

IMG_20180330_172246.jpg

 

That looks fantastic. Are they about to start work on the class 60?

[Gilbert]

.

That said, if my modelling efforts looked anything like Calcutta Sidings I'd be very happy.

 

Steven B.

 

Agreed

[TEAMYAKIMA]

 

I wouldn't expect just niche layouts to engage with the public although they probably need to make greater effort.  wouldn't expect just niche layouts to engage with the public although they probably need to make greater effort. 

 

Agreed

Edited April 3, 2018 by TEAMYAKIMA

[TEAMYAKIMA]

And, of course, that doesn't mean they have more soul.

 

 

 

Agreed

 

And on that positive note I must move on and get on building that layout - Bristol is only a month away.

 

I feel I have finally found a set of words that truly express my views and I must say that this discussion has been interesting and thought provoking. In conclusion I wish all D&E modellers well and look forward to seeing more D&E layouts at shows.

 

If anyone wants to say 'hello' at Bristol please do so - after all we will be running 50% diesel!

[Enterprisingwestern]

I have no problem with anyone deliberately setting out to build a boring layout at home - my issue is when people charge me money to view such a layout at an exhibition. Model railway exhibitions should be viewed as being part of the entertainement industry - layouts should entertain the paying public.

 

If that's true, then I for one am in the wrong "hobby".

 

Mike.

[Northmoor]

Even Fairbourne with it's two hourly service of 158s and the occasional excitement of a yellow peril Class 97, which would send some obsessives to sleep, has it's appeal. The train service is the best ever, and well used, the station buildings still exist, now nicely refurbished as a home, the level crossing has been modernised but there are still bits of the old railway to look at, and that's fun in it's own right. Riding on the train is just as much fun in a 158 as a Park Royal DMU when you look beyond and observe what is around you.

I think you and I should jointly build a layout as we seem to have an identical dream specification - 20-30' of not very much!

 

Completely agree with what you've written above.  I must admit I don't find the national railway network quite as interesting now as in my youth, but I'm very glad is it as it is now and not as we, 30 years ago, thought it might be. Perhaps that's why many modellers look back nostagically to the 1970s and 80s; it isn't just harking back to our youth.  Travelling on railways was exciting because we all suspected they might not be like this for much longer.  After all the previous 30 years had been managed decline, so why shouldn't the next 30?  It wasn't completely irrational - I remember the publication of the Serpell Report.