Bachmann Class 117

[robertcwp]

A bit confused by the lack of livery options on a 116. Surely green, blue, blue grey, refurbished white. More than the Cravens dmu in the Bachmann Range. If there is no enthusiasm there , and there has certainly never been a mention of it from Bachmann, only the original Kernow announcement mentioned it , then hopefully Dapol or another will take it up.

 

Because the 117s lasted much longer in service and also carried Network SouthEast and Regional Railways liveries.

 

I would have preferred a 116 but now with a 117 on the way, the top DMU on my wish list is a cross-country unit. Swindon one were more numerous with a wider geographical spread but Gloucester ones also carried Network SouthEast livery and lasted longer.

[dibber25]

Because the 117s lasted much longer in service and also carried Network SouthEast and Regional Railways liveries.

 

I would have preferred a 116 but now with a 117 on the way, the top DMU on my wish list is a cross-country unit. Swindon one were more numerous with a wider geographical spread but Gloucester ones also carried Network SouthEast livery and lasted longer.

 

If we get into the real nitty-gritty of minute detail, how possible is it to produce both a 119 and a 120 just with re-tooled cab ends? I think that may have been the only difference between the Craftsman kits, but then they both used a Lima 117/118 as a donor so the under frame may have been wrong on both. (CJL)

[robertcwp]

If we get into the real nitty-gritty of minute detail, how possible is it to produce both a 119 and a 120 just with re-tooled cab ends? I think that may have been the only difference between the Craftsman kits, but then they both used a Lima 117/118 as a donor so the under frame may have been wrong on both. (CJL)

The underframes were different, the Swindon ones being deeper. Different roof vent arrangement too. 

 

120_LincolnStMarks_stock-for-1227-to-Crewe_26-2-77 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

119_Williton_1970_m by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

We are going off topic here. 

[BR Blue]

We are but its interesting

[Covkid]

A bit confused by the lack of livery options on a 116. Surely green, blue, blue grey, refurbished white. More than the Cravens dmu in the Bachmann Range. If there is no enthusiasm there , and there has certainly never been a mention of it from Bachmann, only the original Kernow announcement mentioned it , then hopefully Dapol or another will take it up.

 

I did buy a Lima 117 back in the early 80s but that was because it was the only dmu around then and from memory it cost about £20 . I suspect a lot of people did the same possibly giving the illusion that the 117 was more popular than it really is . I can’t see that a purely Western Region unit can be more popular than the much more widespread 116. I don’t think the introduction of one will take sales from the other. So hopefully a 116 will eventually prevail. How about it Dapol?

 

At the risk of diverting the thread the 116 liveries can actually be light green, dark green, with lining and without, whiskers or not then yellow panels, full yellows and maybe wraparound yellow cab doors, before you even start on blue and beyond. 

 

The issue is four lamps, three lamps or two lamps and two character headcode boxes or not, these having to be moulding slides.

 

Apologies that this comment is in the Bachmann forum but I think Dapol are actually quite near to the 116 having released the 122, and wonder whether Bachmann might "concede" the Derby build to Chirk.  I certainly hope Chirk are developing the DTS to match the 122, which means they will be much nearer to the 116.    

[The Johnster]

A bit confused by the lack of livery options on a 116. Surely green, blue, blue grey, refurbished white. More than the Cravens dmu in the Bachmann Range. If there is no enthusiasm there , and there has certainly never been a mention of it from Bachmann, only the original Kernow announcement mentioned it , then hopefully Dapol or another will take it up.

 

I did buy a Lima 117 back in the early 80s but that was because it was the only dmu around then and from memory it cost about £20 . I suspect a lot of people did the same possibly giving the illusion that the 117 was more popular than it really is . I can’t see that a purely Western Region unit can be more popular than the much more widespread 116. I don’t think the introduction of one will take sales from the other. So hopefully a 116 will eventually prevail. How about it Dapol?

 

The 117 seems to be repeating the apparent obsession of RTR and kit manufacturers with the 61xx, another type particularly associated with suburban services out of Paddington.  At least one can get away with renumbering a 61xx into the much more numerous and widespread 5101 version.  Of course, this is coming at it a bit backwards, as in reality the 61xx was a version of the 5101, itself a version of the Churchward 31xx which is different to the Collett 31xx; large prairies are a confusing and inbred sort of thing...

[robertcwp]

We are but its interesting

That's because DMUs are interesting.

[caradoc]

A bit confused by the lack of livery options on a 116. Surely green, blue, blue grey, refurbished white. More than the Cravens dmu in the Bachmann Range. If there is no enthusiasm there , and there has certainly never been a mention of it from Bachmann, only the original Kernow announcement mentioned it , then hopefully Dapol or another will take it up.

 

 

Agree, and the 116 also had more liveries, lasted longer, and were more widespread than than the Derby lightweights !

[The Johnster]

OTOH the Cravens and Derby Lightweights were more widespread in their intial allocations, and the Derbys became very widespread in their later lives, which were long because of their rustproof aluminium bodies.  

 

As long as the RTR market for high density dmus is satisfied by Baccy's 117 I cannot see much chance of a 116 or any other pattern of Derby high density, which is leaves South Wales, West Midlands, Lea Valley, Glasgow suburban, Marylebone suburban, and St Pancras suburban modellers a bit out in the cold.  Sorry, guys, but my glass is traditionally half empty.  The problem is how often I turn out to be either right or to have underestimated how bad things are going to be, but at least as a pessimist I cannot be disappointed....

[dogbox321]

OTOH the Cravens and Derby Lightweights were more widespread in their intial allocations, and the Derbys became very widespread in their later lives, which were long because of their rustproof aluminium bodies.  

 

As long as the RTR market for high density dmus is satisfied by Baccy's 117 I cannot see much chance of a 116 or any other pattern of Derby high density, which is leaves South Wales, West Midlands, Lea Valley, Glasgow suburban, Marylebone suburban, and St Pancras suburban modellers a bit out in the cold.  Sorry, guys, but my glass is traditionally half empty.  The problem is how often I turn out to be either right or to have underestimated how bad things are going to be, but at least as a pessimist I cannot be disappointed....

 

KMRC, should have kept their project going instead of giving the research to Bachmann.  The 116 & 118 was part of their plans.  Plus you would probably have them on your layout by now!

 

Regards,

[chrisf]

There were 117s in South Wales. However I have seen a photo somewhere of one with a 116 centre car. Obviously 116 were much more common. What time period where you thinking of?

 

I need to check but IIRC several sets were formed circa 1980 comprising a pair of 117 power cars and a 116 trailer.  There are several photographs in "Diesels in South Wales" by Michael Rhodes.  What i do not know [yet] is why this happened and how long the hybrid sets lasted.  Much in the lore of dmus surpasses all understanding.

 

Chris

[Gwiwer]

KMRC, should have kept their project going instead of giving the research to Bachmann.  The 116 & 118 was part of their plans.  Plus you would probably have them on your layout by now!

 

Regards,

“Giving” might not be the right word.

 

Here’s a thought. If you had invested significantly in a project and learned that another party had plans to do the same would you compete and risk a huge loss or co-operate and at least recoup your outlay?

 

Kernow had suggested that had their 117 gone ahead it might have included slides in the tool to permit later production of similar types. I don’t think there was any promise. KMRC also polled their customer base to ascertain which class and which liveries would be most popular. The 117s on Bachmann’s initial release list are those Kernow intended to produce first. What, if anything, happens later has always been undecided.

[Clive Mortimore]

“Giving” might not be the right word.

 

Here’s a thought. If you had invested significantly in a project and learned that another party had plans to do the same would you compete and risk a huge loss or co-operate and at least recoup your outlay?

 

Kernow had suggested that had their 117 gone ahead it might have included slides in the tool to permit later production of similar types. I don’t think there was any promise. KMRC also polled their customer base to ascertain which class and which liveries would be most popular. The 117s on Bachmann’s initial release list are those Kernow intended to produce first. What, if anything, happens later has always been undecided.

Hi Rick

 

That was not the impression I got last Sunday when I asked about a 116.

[wombatofludham]

Agree, and the 116 also had more liveries, lasted longer, and were more widespread than than the Derby lightweights !

On the liveries front we seem to have evidence of the 116's running in unlined mid green with speed whiskers, lined dark green with small yellow ends, early rail blue with small yellow ends, rail blue with full yellow ends, plus as appropriate PTE branding (WM and Greater Glasgow spring to mind), white with blue stripe, plus the PTE branded units, blue/grey non corridor, blue/grey corridor, with PTE and Tren y Cwm branding, plus parcels liveries.

 

I know the PTE branding on rail blue and blue/grey is probably pushing the variations a bit and might be better suited to regional special commissions or dealer rep specials, but it's a surprising variety and more than as others have said the Cravens and original Derby Lightweights. Add in the different front end configurations (original batch with marker lights, later deliveries with route indicator, refurbished with flush front end) and the multiplicity of corridor and non-corridor conversions and there is probably enough to keep a manufacturer amused and the product fresh for a while at any rate.

 

Over to Dapol...

[Phil Bullock]

On the liveries front we seem to have evidence of the 116's running in unlined mid green with speed whiskers, lined dark green with small yellow ends, early rail blue with small yellow ends, rail blue with full yellow ends, plus as appropriate PTE branding (WM and Greater Glasgow spring to mind), white with blue stripe, plus the PTE branded units, blue/grey non corridor, blue/grey corridor, with PTE and Tren y Cwm branding, plus parcels liveries.

 

I know the PTE branding on rail blue and blue/grey is probably pushing the variations a bit and might be better suited to regional special commissions or dealer rep specials, but it's a surprising variety and more than as others have said the Cravens and original Derby Lightweights. Add in the different front end configurations (original batch with marker lights, later deliveries with route indicator, refurbished with flush front end) and the multiplicity of corridor and non-corridor conversions and there is probably enough to keep a manufacturer amused and the product fresh for a while at any rate.

 

Over to Dapol...

 

How about lined green with speed whiskers? http://www.railcar.co.uk/images/3753

 

Not sure which variety of green however!

 

Phil

[MJI]

Liveries of mine

 

Both 116 & one 117 blue grey, 118 blue, one 117 choc cream, bit of a wide spread but it is my railway. Was a late repaint 118 and my B430 is ex works.

 

All are Lima based and not doing 116 is a real pity as I think it would have sold better.

[The Stationmaster]

How about lined green with speed whiskers? http://www.railcar.co.uk/images/3753

 

Not sure which variety of green however!

 

Phil

 

And it's a Birmingham Division set with three headlights! (hardly surprising in view if the photo location of course  ).

 

PS. That view needs to be in ChrisF's 116 thread I think.

Edited April 9, 2018 by The Stationmaster

[Zunnan]

How about lined green with speed whiskers? http://www.railcar.co.uk/images/3753

 

Not sure which variety of green however!

 

Phil

 

Looks like a few varieties of green. I know photos often make colours appear different and B/W makes things that bit more difficult, but the TC looks to be a darker shade than the lined DMS and unlined DMBS. It may be the TC is simply cleaner than the DMS, but I do wonder if its just the DMBS which is from a different set.

[Phil Bullock]

And it's a Birmingham Division set with three headlights! (hardly surprising in view if the photo location of course  ).

 

PS. That view needs to be in ChrisF's 116 thread I think.

 

Thanks Mike have added link there too

 

Phil

[89A]

Bachmann tooled three different cab fronts for the 108 (Large roof head code indicator destination within window, Small roof destination indicator box with 2 character head code box below windows and Small roof destination indicator with no head code . Apart from the differences in the window / door configuration in the trailer due to the lack of a toilet in the 116 would a similar tooling suite enable the power cars at least to be modelled.

[Legend]

Bachmann tooled three different cab fronts for the 108 (Large roof head code indicator destination within window, Small roof destination indicator box with 2 character head code box below windows and Small roof destination indicator with no head code . Apart from the differences in the window / door configuration in the trailer due to the lack of a toilet in the 116 would a similar tooling suite enable the power cars at least to be modelled.

Kernow originally referred to a suite of tooling to do 116/117/118 but since takeover by Bachmann it’s only ever been referred to as a Class 117. Looks like that’s all we will get. I really think the door is open for another manufacturer, Dapol ? , to step in . I think a 116 would be very popular not least because of their geographical spread and wouldn’t abstract from the 117. Given the price of £270-£295 I cant see people buying them to use instead of 116s, like we did in Lima £25 days, or with a view to carving them up, if it’s a 116 they really want.

[Pteremy]

Actually the Kernow updates of 5/9/15 about stepping back following the Bachmann announcements end with 'We have not forgotten about the Class 116 and Class 118 and further news about these will be added to this web page when it becomes available.' (see their website). That may not count for much given the time that has elapsed since (and without further news). But it is still the case that the 118's essentially only require a revised cab, and the 116's revised cab and trailer body/ies. So not a huge leap to contemplate.

[Zunnan]

Its a bit of a leap to contemplate hacking the cabs off the 117 to transplant 108 small box cabs...and opening out the smoking compartment windows in the TCL to produce a 127 TSL! That'd get close almost exactly the unit I wanted...but for the price its not something I'll do. If a 116 were also on the horizon I'd be able to cobble up a half reasonable 4 car hybrid and only need to hack up one coach for the TSL, which I'd quite happily do!

 

The 117 as things stand for me is a one off purchase, they were never common as a complete set on the route I am developing a model of and want to be able to bring into the '80s. If a 116 were in the offing I'd be in for a small fleet of both. Losing trailers to 4 car units just lets me go down the all driving end 3 car oddball route, but lav and non-lav trailers is the key; and I don't desperately need to convert 127 TSLs (though it would be nice). I don't begrudge Bachmann for doing the just 117 as its the one with the greatest livery variations, it also saves tooling up a fourth vehicle and additional slides for the cab differences. I can see the sense and logic in it and don't dispute that. The only problem is it gets my hopes up for something else to come, and that makes me want to hold off from buying the 117. I wouldn't want Dapol (or anyone else) to go near the 116, I need hybrids, and with the 117 having conductive couplings I'd much prefer any potential future unit to use the same system. Hopefully Kernow commission the 116 from Bachmann once the 117 surfaces; if Bachmann aren't interested themselves.

[Pteremy]

Its a bit of a leap to contemplate hacking the cabs off the 117 to transplant 108 small box cabs...and opening out the smoking compartment windows in the TCL to produce a 127 TSL! That'd get close almost exactly the unit I wanted...but for the price its not something I'll do. If a 116 were also on the horizon I'd be able to cobble up a half reasonable 4 car hybrid and only need to hack up one coach for the TSL, which I'd quite happily do!

 

The 117 as things stand for me is a one off purchase, they were never common as a complete set on the route I am developing a model of and want to be able to bring into the '80s. If a 116 were in the offing I'd be in for a small fleet of both. Losing trailers to 4 car units just lets me go down the all driving end 3 car oddball route, but lav and non-lav trailers is the key; and I don't desperately need to convert 127 TSLs (though it would be nice). I don't begrudge Bachmann for doing the just 117 as its the one with the greatest livery variations, it also saves tooling up a fourth vehicle and additional slides for the cab differences. I can see the sense and logic in it and don't dispute that. The only problem is it gets my hopes up for something else to come, and that makes me want to hold off from buying the 117. I wouldn't want Dapol (or anyone else) to go near the 116, I need hybrids, and with the 117 having conductive couplings I'd much prefer any potential future unit to use the same system. Hopefully Kernow commission the 116 from Bachmann once the 117 surfaces; if Bachmann aren't interested themselves.

 

 

'Leap' as in commissioning the alternatives.

[Zunnan]

Yes, I realise that is the context in which you were posting, it just relates to my current thought processes to get the DMUs I actually require rather than a 'nearly but not quite' that the 117 represents.