Tornado fails on ECML

[uax6]

Oh I totally agree, and working out what has gone wrong is usually a very interesting voyage of discovery.

It will be interesting to know if this sort of failure happened when the original members were in service.

 

Waiting with baited breath to know the real cause (and I hope the report is as good as the Vivarail one into their engine fire)..

 

Andy G

[stewartingram]

Any truth in the rumour it was cast in Chinese mazak?

 

Stewart

[Wickham Green]

After this bit fell off it?

Did that 'bit' definitely FALL off ? - or was it gas-axed off, perhaps ?

[Titan]

Did that 'bit' definitely FALL off ? - or was it gas-axed off, perhaps ?

 

You actually think that actually is sufficiently likely as to even be worth mentioning?

[Zomboid]

The way 90mph running was always pitched by DBC was that it would to avoid delays. If you look at the RTT, it was actually pathed at 75mph, but authorised for 90.

 

My understanding was always that, in the future, the ability to run at 90 was mainly to be used to recover time if delayed, because even if other trains around it are just traveling 75, any small delay, combined with the lack of acceleration compared to today’s units, would mean a 75mph running train could easy fall behind, especially on paths in and out of London.

 

Similarly, Transpennine Express class 350/4s are pathed for 100mph, but are authorised for 110mph if it is more that 10mins late.

Similarly I heard that on high speed lines trains are timed at 280km/h and permitted to run at 300 to make up time.

 

Could be nonsense of course...

[APOLLO]

 

LMS 2968 wrote

 

 

 

There are actually three parts there: the lower end of the combination lever, broken off at the top below the valve spindle; part of the crosshead drop arm; and the union link between them. The two pins at the ends of the union link are intact with nuts still fastened. I'll agree that the top end of what was the combination lever appears to have been blued by a prolonged heating. 

 

Trying to identify this from Google Images, I can't find any diagrams / photos of Tornado's inside valve gear (from where the above part reportedly fell off)

 

I have found these diagram / photo of the outside valve gear showing a similar part - the Union Link / Combination Lever. (shown disconnected & hanging down in the photo).

 

 

 

Is this correct, does the inside motion of Tornado have similar mechanicals ?. The workings / arrangements of inside motion are a mystery to me.

 

Brit15

Edited April 16, 2018 by APOLLO

[chris p bacon]

You mean it's not a Mashima 1620....

[Wickham Green]

You actually think that actually is sufficiently likely as to even be worth mentioning?

Oddly, I DO think it possible that one ( RH ) end broke and was flailing about like a madman so had to be cut off - hence the obvious heating - before the loco was deemed fit to travel ....................... It looks - to my untutored eye - that the left-hand end is unlikely to have carried enough heat through lack of lubrication that it could have seized suddenly enough and firmly enough to cause the right hand end to fracture.

[Mallard60022]

 

LMS 2968 wrote

 

 

Trying to identify this from Google Images, I can't find any diagrams / photos of Tornado's inside valve gear (from where the above part reportedly fell off)

 

I have found these diagram / photo of the outside valve gear showing a similar part - the Union Link / Combination Lever. (shown disconnected & hanging down in the photo).

 

 

 

Is this correct, does the inside motion of Tornado have similar mechanicals ?. The workings / arrangements of inside motion are a mystery to me.

 

Brit15

Valve, Combination and Union Link would seem right. Coincidentally the first call I heard on Saturday was "... some sort of Valve failure...." so that was either excellent interpretation of the result of the incident, or more likely good ID of the failed bits in the 4'.

As I am a long while Covenentor of the Trust, I'm going to offer the A1 Trust a donation towards the repair and replacement of required parts. Anyone else interested so we can continue to enjoy the sight and sound of this magnificent machine?

P

Edited April 16, 2018 by Mallard60022

[Mallard60022]

Oddly, I DO think it possible that one ( RH ) end broke and was flailing about like a madman so had to be cut off - hence the obvious heating - before the loco was deemed fit to travel ....................... It looks - to my untutored eye - that the left-hand end is unlikely to have carried enough heat through lack of lubrication that it could have seized suddenly enough and firmly enough to cause the right hand end to fracture.

Crosshead Arm Failure BTLOI? Am I willing to put money on that? My tiny bit of 'experience' at the Bluebell isn't enough for me to place a decent bet.

P 

[JeremyC]

Oddly, I DO think it possible that one ( RH ) end broke and was flailing about like a madman so had to be cut off - hence the obvious heating - before the loco was deemed fit to travel ....................... It looks - to my untutored eye - that the left-hand end is unlikely to have carried enough heat through lack of lubrication that it could have seized suddenly enough and firmly enough to cause the right hand end to fracture.

I think that unlikely for two reasons. One if it had been cut off it would not have been lying in the 4 foot some distance behind the train and two I would expect it to have been removed immediately from the 4 foot.

I suspect it will be a while before Tornado is back, apart from any enquiry they can't just go to a dealer and get a spare off the shelf.

Edited April 16, 2018 by JeremyC

[JimC]

I've seen a post elsewhere stating, roughly, that the inside valve seized, most likely with lubrication as an issue, and the rest was consequent. From my experience of internal combustion failures that all seems entirely credible. A lubrication failure, blockage or fractured pipe for example, would appear to be one possible root cause, but there are numerous others.

 

The complete loss of the components shown suggests to me that there might be a fair bit of other damage between the frames, so I don't doubt the A1 trust would welcome folks looking in their wallets.

Edited April 16, 2018 by JimC

[Wickham Green]

I think that unlikely for two reasons. One if it had been cut off it would not have been lying in the 4 foot some distance behind the train and two I would expect it to have been removed immediately from the 4 foot.

I suspect it will be a while before Tornado is back, apart from any enquiry they can't just go to a dealer and get a spare off the shelf.

I don't know whether this is necessarily the one and only piece of "debris from the loco further back in the 4'" - if it IS, I agree, it's not been gas-axed off ................ its always best to photograph the 'evidence' - of whatever sort - before disturbing it.

[uax6]

Also where would the gas axe come from?

 

Andy G

[JeremyC]

I don't know whether this is necessarily the one and only piece of "debris from the loco further back in the 4'" - if it IS, I agree, it's not been gas-axed off ................ its always best to photograph the 'evidence' - of whatever sort - before disturbing it.

I agree, but my point was solely that if it had been gas-axed off it would have been immediately removed (well once it had cooled :-))

Edited April 16, 2018 by JeremyC

[JimC]

 

 

Is this correct, does the inside motion of Tornado have similar mechanicals ?. The workings / arrangements of inside motion are a mystery to me.

 

The components will all be much the same, but with different dimensions. 

Basically the top is towards us.

What you are seeing there is the combination lever on the left, heavily coloured at the end where its been bent and rebent until it fractured. That's exactly what I'd expect if the valve had seized. The union link is superficially intact, and the piece on the right is the crosshead arm, which has clearly fractured. That might well be part of the actual crosshead, I'm not sufficiently familiar with the components, and I didn't find a photo of them being assembled. The fracture of the crosshead arm is particularly disturbing from the POV of what else may have been clobbered between the frames.

Edited April 16, 2018 by JimC

[Dunsignalling]

And how many 9F's did 75mph as often as a 66, let alone 90mph as often as an A1?  Perhaps if you were to compare apples with apples - e.g. an A1 with a 67 or 68....

Whilst 9F's could hit 90 mph, many drivers reckoned they would only do it once.......... 

 

Their really useful attribute, when seconded to passenger work, was that any but the most worn examples could keep 60mph end-to-end schedules without being overly thrashed. 

 

John

[woodenhead]

I think that unlikely for two reasons. One if it had been cut off it would not have been lying in the 4 foot some distance behind the train and two I would expect it to have been removed immediately from the 4 foot.

I suspect it will be a while before Tornado is back, apart from any enquiry they can't just go to a dealer and get a spare off the shelf.

Actually, none of us know what caused the incident or the full details around the image in the four foot - where it was taken, when it was taken or by whom.

 

Everything in this thread is supposition, even the owners at this stage probably don't know the cause just the effect it had on the locomotive.

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion on what could have happened and it is possible that before the locomotive could be moved that other parts not operating within their design had to be removed maybe even unceremoniously using a gas axe.

[JeremyC]

Actually, none of us know what caused the incident or the full details around the image in the four foot - where it was taken, when it was taken or by whom.

 

Everything in this thread is supposition, even the owners at this stage probably don't know the cause just the effect it had on the locomotive.

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion on what could have happened and it is possible that before the locomotive could be moved that other parts not operating within their design had to be removed maybe even unceremoniously using a gas axe.

True, but there is a video on YouTube taken from another train. It passes the valve gear assembly lying in the 4 foot then some distance later passes Tornado's train stopped. From that it would appear the valve gear became detached with Tornado moving.

https://youtu.be/00N0Y2UCuuo

Edited April 16, 2018 by JeremyC

[JeremyC]

The components will all be much the same, but with different dimensions.

Basically the top is towards us.

What you are seeing there is the combination lever on the left, heavily coloured at the end where its been bent and rebent until it fractured. That's exactly what I'd expect if the valve had seized. The union link is superficially intact, and the piece on the right is the crosshead arm, which has clearly fractured. That might well be part of the actual crosshead, I'm not sufficiently familiar with the components, and I didn't find a photo of them being assembled. The fracture of the crosshead arm is particularly disturbing from the POV of what else may have been clobbered between the frames.

If it was the combination lever that failed it is fortunate it didn't fall down and catch something on the track. The Goswick accident in 1953 was caused when the eccentric on A2/1 'Waverley' dropped down after losing the securing bolts and caught part of the points opening them under the train.

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/MoT_Goswick1953.pdf

Edited April 16, 2018 by JeremyC

[Wickham Green]

True, but there is a video on YouTube taken from another train. It passes the valve gear assembly lying in the 4 foot then some distance later passes Tornado's train stopped. From that it would appear the valve gear became detached with Tornado moving.

A very significant bend - not visible from the angle of the the first photo !

[Titan]

True, but that might be consequential after it started falling to bits. At least the video showed that the top part of the combination lever was still in place along with the rest of the valve gear, so hopefully the damage is not too extensive.

[beast66606]

Also where would the gas axe come from?

 

Andy G

 

Amazon on the 2-hour delivery ?

[Andrew Young]

That piece of valve gear was found someway behind where the train came to a stand and was spotted by a following train examining the line. So would’ve come off whilst the Loco was still moving. I believe that photo was taken by an NR employee and has somehow made its way into the public domain from an internal Network Rail document.

 

My parents in law were on the train and were told that the Loco had hit something that caused catastrophic damage. As there’s no further report that I can find to say that Tornado hit anything, plus the TRUST entry for the train saying ‘mechanical failure’. My suspicions are towards some form of mechanical failure on the Loco, the cause of which will take some skilled engineers a lot of work to discover.

 

For that amount of damage to the union link, combination lever and crosshead casting/forging, you can expect further extensive damage to the connecting rod and possibly crank axle / cylinders to come to light depending on where the weak points are.

 

Bet it was quite scary on the footplate when it happened! I was driving ‘Talyllyn’ in 2014 when the valve gear disintegrated under me and it went like a bucking bronco and that was at under 10mph! In that case, the snapped crank pin, connecting & coupling rods, damaged piston and rod were all consequential to a small set screw working loose.

 

Whatever the cause, the A1 Steam Trust have a lot of work and a lot of fundraising ahead of them.

 

Andrew

Edited April 16, 2018 by Andrew Young

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

 

A still capture from the youtube video.  I assume if the failure had been catastrophic (how many remember Blue Peter's near terminal damage) Tornado would not have been towed away, still in steam.

 

Catastrophic or not, it'll be an expensive fix and a lengthy investigation I imagine.