Tornado fails on ECML

[Nearholmer]

I think they were bits of cast-aluminium casing from the engine or transmission, and given that those trains seemed to have lots and lots of engines and transmissions, all roaring and rattling away, possibly not.

[Pandora]

The Eurostars running the Chunnel   to Waterloo via Tonbridge route were noted for shearing off of the 3rd rail shoes,  I would not like to be hit by a flying shoe!.  More recently a warning was issued about freight wagons loosing their parking brake  wheels, again another hefty chuck of metal that could easily kill.

[Pandora]

Certainly the panning shot video on YouTube taken near Biggleswade suggests this was the case. The accompanying description mentions that steam was shut off during the shot, but the train does not seem to be braking. I wonder if the loco crew had noticed something amiss in the loco's riding or sound, shut off and wound to mid gear while deciding the severity of the problem. 

 

I didn't turn out to see this tour as it was routed slow line south of Welwyn.

 

The Nim.

From the video 60163 was coasting (no exhaust steam)  and blowing off from the safety valves,  a loco transitioning from working hard to next to nothing has a lot of thermal inertia in the firebox  and boiler so the steam has to be lost pretty quickly, the black smoke from the chimney,  might that be the dampers having  been closed to choke the firebox?

[Pandora]

Certainly the panning shot video on YouTube taken near Biggleswade suggests this was the case. The accompanying description mentions that steam was shut off during the shot, but the train does not seem to be braking. I wonder if the loco crew had noticed something amiss in the loco's riding or sound, shut off and wound to mid gear while deciding the severity of the problem. 

 

I didn't turn out to see this tour as it was routed slow line south of Welwyn.

 

The Nim.

If the shuttle valve seized with the port into the cylinder permanently open, thereby  admitting steam into the middle cylinder non-stop,  could that have blown the cylinder end away as the piston tried to compress a cylinder full of  steam at full boiler pressure?

Edited April 17, 2018 by Pandora

[Mallard60022]

Blimey, I've just been looking at some of the pre failure vids on Flutube; 163 was really shifting through Biggleswade. However I've been more 'excited' seeing it at probably only 70ish through Retford, leaning to the curve going south, Regulator open and whistle droning, especially after dark. Very atmospheric.

Mallard at 120+ must have been a blur. I remember reading somewhere that the latter probably had 'the problem' when the regulator was rammed shut by order (Driver probably wouldn't have done it so sharply?) to attain the so called brake test and that caused some sort of 'trouble with the valves and consequently stress on the big end(s)' and if the Reg had been left slightly open allowing a 'drift' of steam to the valve chests & cylinders then the forces that created the strain on the gear would not have happened. That series of events leading to the bearing going was an unknown of course as no loco had ever been driven that fast. Tornado has attained 100mph as we know but maybe the Reg shutting was more controlled on that run as it continued, not requiring such a rapid slowing and it had only been required to do 100mph as a % excess to assess the 90mph running and then stopping capability?

Incidentally, donations towards the repairs and parts replacement, however small, can be madel on the A1ST Site or by phoning Gemma Braithwaite on the Office contact or just making a donation. Gift Aid should help too.

Sincerely,

Phil

Edited April 17, 2018 by Mallard60022

[Mallard60022]

If the shuttle valve seized with the port into the cylinder permanently open, thereby  admitting steam into the middle cylinder non-stop,  could that have blown the cylinder end away as the piston tried to compress a cylinder full of  steam at full boiler pressure?

Probably only if the exhaust port was blocked too as steam woulod just go in and out the exhaust continuously would it not?

P

[Edwin_m]

If the shuttle valve seized with the port into the cylinder permanently open, thereby  admitting steam into the middle cylinder non-stop,  could that have blown the cylinder end away as the piston tried to compress a cylinder full of  steam at full boiler pressure?

Surely the piston and its connections are designed to withstand the force of a cylinder worth of steam at full boiler pressure, since this happens in normal operation?  If the valve was stuck open then compressing the steam with the piston would just push it back through the valve, with no significant increaes in pressure. 

 

The various stories above indicate how dangerous an object of significant size can be if it detaches from a train at speed.  In this case it was the inside valve gear and it ended up harmlessly in the four-foot, but if the same had happened to an outside cylinder the part would have been free to fly off to one side and lethal to anyone who might have been in the way.  There have also been a few incidents over the years of detached components in the four-foot damaging the brake gear and compromising the ability to stop.  Although Tornado is a one-off the same sort of event could happen to a steam loco on the main line or a heritage railway, and is arguably more likely given that they have genuinely old components rather than modern ones to an old design.  Therefore I suggest RAIB will investigate on the grounds that the incident could have been a lot worse and has the potential to happen again. 

[Mallard60022]

A previous comment re the flying camshaft at Donny has made me think twice about where I might stand when I go there to be a 'spotter'.

There is a long term TSL through Donny these day (well there was last time I went...might have changed) so flying bits off stock might not be such a threat. More likely to get hit by drunken race goers or footy fans than whizzy Brake Wheels or bits of Container.

P

Edited April 17, 2018 by Mallard60022

[rodent279]

To be fair, an empty drinks carton/can/half eaten apple could do you a bit of damage if lobbed from a window at speed.

[jim.snowdon]

I'm sure the Inspectors at both the RAIB and the ORR will value the combined wisdom of the amateur engineers on this forum in coming to learned conclusions on the cause of the failure on the basis of second-, if not third-hand evidence.

 

The locomotive has just suffered what is an expensive failure, whose outcome may have repercussions for other steam locomotive operators. Contributions to the repair of the locomotive would be more constructive, and certainly better appreciated by its owners.

 

Jim

[PhilH]

If the shuttle valve seized with the port into the cylinder permanently open, thereby  admitting steam into the middle cylinder non-stop,  could that have blown the cylinder end away as the piston tried to compress a cylinder full of  steam at full boiler pressure?

Cylinder relief valves should stop that happening.

[Mallard60022]

1. I'm sure the Inspectors at both the RAIB and the ORR will value the combined wisdom of the amateur engineers on this forum in coming to learned conclusions on the cause of the failure on the basis of second-, if not third-hand evidence.

 

2. The locomotive has just suffered what is an expensive failure, whose outcome may have repercussions for other steam locomotive operators. Contributions to the repair of the locomotive would be more constructive, and certainly better appreciated by its owners.

 

Jim

1. Yes I'm guilty of speculation, however the discussion has drifted a long way into stuff I don't understand and it's actually quite dull when it isn't factual.

2. See my post above.

Passengers receiving compensation already is excellent 'customer service'. TOC could learn something from this maybe?

Phil

[Titan]

I'm sure the Inspectors at both the RAIB and the ORR will value the combined wisdom of the amateur engineers on this forum in coming to learned conclusions on the cause of the failure on the basis of second-, if not third-hand evidence.

 

 

Jim

 

If you had remembered that a large number of people are professional railwaymen, including those experienced in traction and rolling stock, you might be a little more restrained in your sarcasm. As proof that the evidence shown on an internet forum can be sufficient to for those of us who know about these things to come to the correct conclusions perhaps you would like to read this thread...

 

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/51459-west-coast-derailment/?p=600533

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/51459-west-coast-derailment/?p=606757

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/51459-west-coast-derailment/?p=851419

 

So please don't go down the speculation/conjecture/don't know what you are talking about angle, because a great many who post on this forum, do know what they are talking about.

[Steamport Southport]

You've also got to remember it's a forum, not an inquiry.

 

The whole point of forums is that people can have a say whether they are experts or not. Most importantly forums are meant to be fun.

 

 

 

 

Jason 

[Reorte]

I'm sure the Inspectors at both the RAIB and the ORR will value the combined wisdom of the amateur engineers on this forum in coming to learned conclusions on the cause of the failure on the basis of second-, if not third-hand evidence.

 

The locomotive has just suffered what is an expensive failure, whose outcome may have repercussions for other steam locomotive operators. Contributions to the repair of the locomotive would be more constructive, and certainly better appreciated by its owners.

Just people with an interest pondering about what might've happened, nothing wrong with that.

[dibber25]

Shame that there's no report for this in the Railways Archive site, it, I'm sure would make interesting reading.

 

I seem to remember that an engine and gearbox fell from a 142 sometime in the late '80's and early 90's, that was amongst the time the re-engining/transmissioning of them was happening, and not the one mentioned above, but I can't for the life of me find anything on the net about it....

 

Andy G

 

When I was Editor of Steam World, I had a copy of the report into the Crewkerne incident and the subsequent 'grounding ' of the Bulleid 'Pacifics' for ultrasonic axle checks. It was thoroughly covered in the magazine at the time of the anniversary, so 1993? It was at a time when metal fatigue was only beginning to be understood - witness all the DH Comet issues in the preceding years. (CJL)

[jamie92208]

On that basis, given the potential for pieces of valve gear or other items of motion work to cause a derailment involving fatalities and serious injuries, as shown by past history (Britannia on the S&C, can't remember which/where/when but there were fatalities), I would not be at all surprised if RAIB got involved.

 

And if that leads to improvements in maintenance & repair processes that reduce or prevent such things happening, that's got to be a good thing.

 

Edit: 70052, Settle, 21st Jan 1960. 5 dead, 9 injured. Different part of the motion work failed, I know, but the potential is there.

 

Edit no. 2-I'm not casting aspertions about the maintenance standards of 60163, or its carers, or implying that it's not up to scratch.

Whatever we do, if there is a way of making it better and more robust, we have an obligation to do so, especially in safety related matters, whether on the railway or elsewhere.

One thing the RAIB might do is formally request an internal report and then decide what action, if any needs to be taken.  That happened in an incident that I was involved with.   However the ORR also did their own inquiry.

 

Settle accident 1960

 

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=287

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settle_rail_crash

 

http://www.cravenherald.co.uk/nostalgia/nostalgia_history/4824214.The_night_Craven_folk_woke_to_rail_crash_horror/

 

Brit15

 

Yes that was a nasty one compounded by atrocious weather at dent when the driver made an inspection.   I was sound asleep a few hundred yards away when the accident happened but saw the aftermath the next day.

 

I also seem to remember an incident not many years ago involving IIRC a West Country Class losing part of it's outside motion of the LSWR main line.

 

Jamie

[jim.snowdon]

If you had remembered that a large number of people are professional railwaymen, including those experienced in traction and rolling stock, you might be a little more restrained in your sarcasm. As proof that the evidence shown on an internet forum can be sufficient to for those of us who know about these things to come to the correct conclusions perhaps you would like to read this thread...

 

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/51459-west-coast-derailment/?p=600533

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/51459-west-coast-derailment/?p=606757

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/51459-west-coast-derailment/?p=851419

 

So please don't go down the speculation/conjecture/don't know what you are talking about angle, because a great many who post on this forum, do know what they are talking about.

And as a professional railway engineer as well, there are times when speculation on minimal evidence is not professional.

 

Jim

[Dava]

This is getting like the Gauge 0 Guild forum, and not in a good way.

[70b]

This is getting like the Gauge 0 Guild forum, and not in a good way.

and its the same person in both places

[LNER4479]

https://www.a1steam.com/category/news/

[rodent279]

https://www.a1steam.com/category/news/

Well I think they have levelled with the public & passengers as best they can, given what they know, and you can't ask for more than that.

 

I have every confidence that they, and the RAIB if they get involved, will get to the bottom of it, repair it fully, and carry on operating a safe and spectacular engine.

[Mallard60022]

Hoorah. End of conjecture and a good and clear explanation from the Trust. On the upside, this event may well result in a modification to the lube system and provision of a superior supply all round. It could also pay dividends for other operators and provide improved information for new build projects..

Phil. 

[JimC]

Hoorah. End of conjecture and a good and clear explanation from the Trust. On the upside, this event may well result in a modification to the lube system and provision of a superior supply all round

I dunno. It seems unlikely that they've run into a fundamental flaw in the lubrication system. Something like that would most likely have been ironed out in the 50s. My own guess, uninformed, is that there was a malfunction in the lubrication system, which includes possibilities like failed pumps, obstructed oilways, fractured pipes and many more. If I were looking ay a similar failure in an IC engine one of the first things I'd be looking for would be whether the problem was confined to the valve, or if it merely happened to be the first thing to fail completely. The most worrying scenario would be a general failure of the lubrication system leaving many more parts significantly compromised and in need of repair or replacement. 

[Davexoc]

I've bored with this before, but I was on the track carrying out a survey for a cable route at Reading about thirty five years ago, when some chunks flew (not fell) off a passing DMU two roads away, crashing into the ballast near me and my lookout. Mildly perturbing!

I remember attending a Standing Order update for the examination of HST power car brake discs. The procedure was changed due to one chunk just missing a PW gang, and another felling a lineside post. Things do break and fly off, especially the brakes. I remember counting three different brake blocks/pads within the confines af Barnetby station once.

 

Dave