Tornado fails on ECML

[woodenhead]

I dunno. It seems unlikely that they've run into a fundamental flaw in the lubrication system. Something like that would most likely have been ironed out in the 50s. My own guess, uninformed, is that there was a malfunction in the lubrication system, which includes possibilities like failed pumps, obstructed oilways, fractured pipes and many more. If I were looking ay a similar failure in an IC engine one of the first things I'd be looking for would be whether the problem was confined to the valve, or if it merely happened to be the first thing to fail completely. The most worrying scenario would be a general failure of the lubrication system leaving many more parts significantly compromised and in need of repair or replacement. 

Or it could come down to pure and simple human error - something that should have been filled wasn't

 

They know the failure just not the cause.

[Pandora]

I dunno. It seems unlikely that they've run into a fundamental flaw in the lubrication system. Something like that would most likely have been ironed out in the 50s. My own guess, uninformed, is that there was a malfunction in the lubrication system, which includes possibilities like failed pumps, obstructed oilways, fractured pipes and many more. If I were looking ay a similar failure in an IC engine one of the first things I'd be looking for would be whether the problem was confined to the valve, or if it merely happened to be the first thing to fail completely. The most worrying scenario would be a general failure of the lubrication system leaving many more parts significantly compromised and in need of repair or replacement. 

Tornado has accumulated 100,000 miles of running, a design fault  in the lubrication system leading to abrupt failure is  possible reason but surely low in probability, more likely to be a blockage, low oil level at preparation, fracture of a feed pipe in my estimation. 

Edited April 17, 2018 by Pandora

[TravisM]

Everyone seems to think this is some kind of disaster and that Tornado will be out of action for months but I spoke to someone at the Nene Valley earlier today and it would seem that the initial damage was bad, it wasn't as bad as first feared.  He also pointed out that a number of valve gear spares were cast at the same as those used at the time the middle cylinder valve gear came apart, so using those will help get it back up and running pretty quickly.

[trisonic]

 

Oh, I may have got the wrong end of the stick - I’m merely a guitarist...........

 

Best, Pete.

Edited April 18, 2018 by trisonic

[PatB]

I really don't see that anything said on this forum, speculation or otherwise, will have any effect on any enquiry, positive or negative. Anyone who thinks it might has an exaggerated concept of the power of internet fora.

 

As things stand, there's been an interesting discussion on the failure modes of steam locomotives, without any claims that the information offered is in any way definitive in Tornado's case. I really can't see any harm being done, and some of us may have learned a few things.

[TheQ]

acid_picdump_97.jpg

 

Oh, I may have got the wrong end of the stick - I’m merely a guitarist...........

 

Best, Pete.

I raise you a Pacific to your Atlantic, a long wheel base Tornado Just 'cos I worked on them..

Edited April 18, 2018 by TheQ

[Mallard60022]

Spookily I was reading some interesting Engineman stories last evening and lo, this Fireman from Yeovil who was the subject of the Book, had been yards away when the Packet demolished the bits of Crewkerne up Platform in 1953. There was a short piece on the investigation from which came the congratulations to the Top Link Driver (Exmouth Junction; one of three brothers who were all Top Link there) for his intuitive stopping of the train in safety after the axle fracture. He was commended for his action in averting a major incident. It wasn't this particular incident that truly initiated the modification programme, that was linked to the developments and general success of the Standard Class locomotives that drove the idea that instead of withdrawing the Packets they could be life extended to the late 70s and maintenance would be very much easier. Interestingly, if you read the relevant information, many original light Pacifics 'performed' just as well or sometimes even better than their modified sisters.

Phil

[dibber25]

Spookily I was reading some interesting Engineman stories last evening and lo, this Fireman from Yeovil who was the subject of the Book, had been yards away when the Packet demolished the bits of Crewkerne up Platform in 1953. There was a short piece on the investigation from which came the congratulations to the Top Link Driver (Exmouth Junction; one of three brothers who were all Top Link there) for his intuitive stopping of the train in safety after the axle fracture. He was commended for his action in averting a major incident. It wasn't this particular incident that truly initiated the modification programme, that was linked to the developments and general success of the Standard Class locomotives that drove the idea that instead of withdrawing the Packets they could be life extended to the late 70s and maintenance would be very much easier. Interestingly, if you read the relevant information, many original light Pacifics 'performed' just as well or sometimes even better than their modified sisters.

Phil

 

Yes, it was widely considered that rebuilding the light 'Pacifics' took a 'Mini Cooper' and turned it into a basic 850cc Mini. (CJL)

[PaulRhB]

Everyone seems to think this is some kind of disaster and that Tornado will be out of action for months but I spoke to someone at the Nene Valley earlier today and it would seem that the initial damage was bad, it wasn't as bad as first feared. He also pointed out that a number of valve gear spares were cast at the same as those used at the time the middle cylinder valve gear came apart, so using those will help get it back up and running pretty quickly.

Good, they've been well ahead of the game in many things so that doesn't surprise me that they had some of the spares to hand and no doubt the cad files for the rest will be rapidly brought into play once they've established if any mods are needed.

When she was first out and about we dealt with the operating team several times and found them fully versed on the requirements of the modern railway and consequently dead easy to work with to both our advantage. Add to that the loco crews they use and I look forward to their visits our way so I hope it's only a short period out of action.

[jonny777]

Everyone seems to think this is some kind of disaster and that Tornado will be out of action for months but I spoke to someone at the Nene Valley earlier today and it would seem that the initial damage was bad, it wasn't as bad as first feared.  He also pointed out that a number of valve gear spares were cast at the same as those used at the time the middle cylinder valve gear came apart, so using those will help get it back up and running pretty quickly.

 

 

As a monthly covenanter from the beginning (early 1990s I think) that is a great relief. Thanks for the info, as I was pretty depressed when I heard of the failure. 

[DCB]

I dunno. It seems unlikely that they've run into a fundamental flaw in the lubrication system. Something like that would most likely have been ironed out in the 50s. My own guess, uninformed, is that there was a malfunction in the lubrication system, which includes possibilities like failed pumps, obstructed oilways, fractured pipes and many more. If I were looking ay a similar failure in an IC engine one of the first things I'd be looking for would be whether the problem was confined to the valve, or if it merely happened to be the first thing to fail completely. The most worrying scenario would be a general failure of the lubrication system leaving many more parts significantly compromised and in need of repair or replacement. 

Lubrication failure could cover a whole range of issues from an empty oil reservoir, through blocked pipe to broken pipe, wrong oil or wrong driving technique.   The well publicised Midland 4F axlebox failures seem to date from a change in lubricating oil (from vegetable to mineral?), is Tornado using genuine 1950s oils or some feeble EU regs compliant replacement?   My other niggle is driving technique, I know some classes needed to be put in different reverser positions when coasting to others, how many drivers with everyday experience of driving Peppercorn A1s are still with us? and how many remember how they did it?

I think everyone was very lucky that this incident was not more serious, getting on for 750 HP is a lot to get from one cylinder and maybe we should be looking at reducing stresses if we are to run at higher speeds, Like putting Caprotti valve gear on the new P2 or spreading the power over more cylinders as per a GW Castle, though there is little evidence that they could actually manage 100mph on the level, I think Clun at 98 on the City of Truro 60th anniversary on the Somerset Levels was the record for a Castle on level track

[rodent279]

Post deleted

Edited April 18, 2018 by rodent279

[4069]

One thing the RAIB might do is formally request an internal report and then decide what action, if any needs to be taken. 

Excellent guess.

[Torper]

Are the operators of Tornado likely to find themselves penalised financially for the loco's failure? It caused considerable problems on the ECML and I imagine that a lot of passengers will be claiming refunds because of late running which was no fault of the train operating companies.

 

DT

[royaloak]

Are the operators of Tornado likely to find themselves penalised financially for the loco's failure? It caused considerable problems on the ECML and I imagine that a lot of passengers will be claiming refunds because of late running which was no fault of the train operating companies.

 

DT

They are limited to a very small amount, I believe it is Network Rail that have to cover the rest of the claims which is part of the reason Network Rail are trying to restrict steam powered trips.

[Titan]

They are limited to a very small amount, I believe it is Network Rail that have to cover the rest of the claims which is part of the reason Network Rail are trying to restrict steam powered trips.

 

I believe it is the same arrangement for preserved diesels and electrics too.

[Pandora]

Lubrication failure could cover a whole range of issues from an empty oil reservoir, through blocked pipe to broken pipe, wrong oil or wrong driving technique.   The well publicised Midland 4F axlebox failures seem to date from a change in lubricating oil (from vegetable to mineral?), is Tornado using genuine 1950s oils or some feeble EU regs compliant replacement?   My other niggle is driving technique, I know some classes needed to be put in different reverser positions when coasting to others, how many drivers with everyday experience of driving Peppercorn A1s are still with us? and how many remember how they did it?

I think everyone was very lucky that this incident was not more serious, getting on for 750 HP is a lot to get from one cylinder and maybe we should be looking at reducing stresses if we are to run at higher speeds, Like putting Caprotti valve gear on the new P2 or spreading the power over more cylinders as per a GW Castle, though there is little evidence that they could actually manage 100mph on the level, I think Clun at 98 on the City of Truro 60th anniversary on the Somerset Levels was the record for a Castle on level track

The power output of British steam is modest,  just look at the USA express passenger streamliners of the 1940'ssuch as the 130 mph Pennsy 4-4-4-4  T1 duplex drive or the S1 class 6-4-4-6 loco,  6000+ horsepower.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_Railroad_class_S1

 

As per Tornado, there is a group building a T1 from scratch 

 

https://prrt1steamlocomotivetrust.org/

Edited April 18, 2018 by Pandora

[Mallard60022]

The power output of British steam is modest,  just look at the USA express passenger streamliners of the 1940'ssuch as the 130 mph Pennsy 4-4-4-4  T1 duplex drive or the S1 class 6-4-4-6 loco,  6000+ horsepower.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_Railroad_class_S1

 

As per Tornado, there is a group building a T1 from scratch 

 

https://prrt1steamlocomotivetrust.org/

That S1 is a beast. With respect and also admitting I know zero about these things, but would not the States have claimed a world speed record for steam if they really had attained the speeds mentioned on the web site? Surely the US would not want to miss out on a record ?

Phil

[jjb1970]

The PRR T1 duplex was the most impressive steamer design of them all IMO, that shark nose Loewy styling, the presence and performance, magnificent. Broadway make a nice HO model but I'd really like a brass one.

[Oldddudders]

The PRR T1 duplex was the most impressive steamer design of them all IMO, that shark nose Loewy styling, the presence and performance, magnificent. Broadway make a nice HO model but I'd really like a brass one.

 

It would certainly suit the enthusiast community worldwide "being unable to turn a wheel without Burning-of-Rome smoke effects." (Lucius Beebe)

[uax6]

I think the most a charter is responsible for would be a pay out of about £15000, all the rest is NRs problem....

 

Andy g

[bimble]

That S1 is a beast. With respect and also admitting I know zero about these things, but would not the States have claimed a world speed record for steam if they really had attained the speeds mentioned on the web site? Surely the US would not want to miss out on a record ?

Phil

 

Probably for the same reason that the first loco that hit 100mph WAS Flying Scotsman, no matter how strong the argument for City of Turo is, because FS was proven, whereas CoT was only claimed. So whilst the S1 claims to have hit up to 156mph, Mallard could prove 126mph.

[jamie92208]

Probably for the same reason that the first loco that hit 100mph WAS Flying Scotsman, no matter how strong the argument for City of Turo is, because FS was proven, whereas CoT was only claimed. So whilst the S1 claims to have hit up to 156mph, Mallard could prove 126mph.

 

There was an incident at Cheyenne when one of their big 4-8-4's ran away down Sherman Hill, all 450 tons of it. It ran for 30 miles from Buford down to Cheyenne on the 1 in 65.  It is rumoured that they timed it from the signalling at doing 135 mph.  It ran through the station area and then overturned on the bend at the end of the yard, demolishing a diesel in the process.  To UP's credit no one ever attempted to claim a new world record.   The steamer was back in service in a few months, the diesel was written off.

 

The later series of 4-8-4's are rated at 6000 hp which is 1500 hp per driven axle.  Even today diesels have never reached that figure. 

 

Jamie

[brack]

That S1 is a beast. With respect and also admitting I know zero about these things, but would not the States have claimed a world speed record for steam if they really had attained the speeds mentioned on the web site? Surely the US would not want to miss out on a record ?

Phil

People will claim all sorts of things based on their emotional allegiances rumours and hearsay, for example spurious reports of a shiny now preserved 4-4-0* doing over 100mph with little solid evidence a few years from the beginning of the 20th century.

 

The PRR were pioneers of dynamometers, stationary test plant and similar. Given the possible publicity benefits it surprises me they didn't do a proper attempt at the speed record. The fact that the main disputes with mallard's record involve the 05 to me indicates how reliable the claims around the duplex locos were.

 

*999 of course! Don't be too defensive swindonites.

Edited April 18, 2018 by brack

[Grovenor]

The later series of 4-8-4's are rated at 6000 hp which is 1500 hp per driven axle.  Even today diesels have never reached that figure. 

Jamie

And 3000 hp per cylinder, rather more than suggested as to much for Tornado above.

Rgds