Kings Cross Suburban

[cheesysmith]

Are we just showing what train you can run, or is it realy a chance to play trains?

[Enterprisingwestern]

If I were only allowed three types to represent KX, I’d use Cravens, 31’s and 55’s, they’d capture the ‘look’.

 

At least with Cravens and Deltics you wouldn't need to model Kings Cross, you wouldn't see anything for smoke!

 

Mike.

[Guest]

Pretty good choices overall. Class 24’s were unusual and class 33’s even more so, I can’t remember seeing either on the ECML, but am aware of the pics thereof. In blue I did see one or two 25/3’s but these were only notable due to their rarity. For that era you could add class 15’s for parcels work (rare) and also 23’s baby Deltic's for suburban passengers, they don’t need to be working models though.

 

Twin head code ‘Peaks’ again rare, usually they were single headcode, or sealed beam units. Significantly outnumbered by 47’s, but 46’s I’d class as common but infrequent.

37’s were rare, but the twin headcode type is correct for those seen.

Class 31’s common as muck, skinhead versions also a good bet.

Class 40’s infrequent, twin headcode type the least seen, gut feeling is headcode disc variant more common at KX than single headcode.

Cravens and DMU’s up to blue, can’t recall any blue grey versions as electrification had taken place around that time. 101’s did do Royston -Cambridge so you could (rule 1) add those in refurbished white, and blue grey.

47’s/55’s/HST’s by the bucket load!

If I were only allowed three types to represent KX, I’d use Cravens, 31’s and 55’s, they’d capture the ‘look’.

 

The 24 was an impulse buy, although to be fair, I have seen pics of them at Kings X. Having said that, I think they were two-tone with small yellow panels. The 33 was bought with a DJ Class 71 for another project, so is unlikely to be seen on the layout. Re: the HST, I'm hankering after just a blue/grey power car and a single Mk3 poking out from the train shed in a static pose. If I'm honest, I have more than enough for such a small layout. I certainly agree that all you really need to capture the "look" and "feel"  are 31s, 55s and Cravens.

 

Are we just showing what train you can run, or is it realy a chance to play trains?

 

Playing, for sure! Some of the stock has never been unboxed and some of the rest has only been allowed to stretch its legs on a rolling road, so think of it as a cross between stocktaking and playing... I have enough to do with getting the infrastructure and the scenics on the layout finished, but I am looking ahead to when I have the space for a fiddle yard and the whole thing stops being just a diorama.

[Clive Mortimore]

Pretty good choices overall. Class 24’s were unusual and class 33’s even more so, I can’t remember seeing either on the ECML, but am aware of the pics thereof. In blue I did see one or two 25/3’s but these were only notable due to their rarity. For that era you could add class 15’s for parcels work (rare) and also 23’s baby Deltic's for suburban passengers, they don’t need to be working models though.

 

Twin head code ‘Peaks’ again rare, usually they were single headcode, or sealed beam units. Significantly outnumbered by 47’s, but 46’s I’d class as common but infrequent.

37’s were rare, but the twin headcode type is correct for those seen.

Class 31’s common as muck, skinhead versions also a good bet.

Class 40’s infrequent, twin headcode type the least seen, gut feeling is headcode disc variant more common at KX than single headcode.

Cravens and DMU’s up to blue, can’t recall any blue grey versions as electrification had taken place around that time. 101’s did do Royston -Cambridge so you could (rule 1) add those in refurbished white, and blue grey.

47’s/55’s/HST’s by the bucket load!

If I were only allowed three types to represent KX, I’d use Cravens, 31’s and 55’s, they’d capture the ‘look’.

To add to Paul's listing of diesels.

 

Pre yellow panel era

Class 26,

Class 21,

Class 24,

Class 31, toffee apple and other disc headcode locos were GER based and very rare at Kings Cross

Class 23,

Class 20,

Class 40,

Class 46,

Deltic,

Cravens DMU

Falcon

Lion

 

Green small yellow panel era

Class 31,

Class 23, refurbished with headcode panel

Class 20, gone by 1966

Class 15,

Class 37, mainly split headcode Immingham locos

Class 24, including two tone green, gone by 1967

Class 40,

Class 46,

Class 47,

Deltic

Cravens DMU,

DP2

 

Green full yellow ends, and blue pre TOPS era

Class 31, some green full yellow had the arrows logo

Class 23, refurbished with headcode panel

Class 15, some green full yellow had the arrows logo, no blue ones

Class 40,

Class 46,

Class 47,

Deltic

Cravens DMU,

Class 116 DMU no green full yellow ends but green small panels during this period

Class 125 DMU no green full yellow ends but green small panels during this period

 

Blue post TOPS

Class 31,

Class 40,

Class 46,

Class 47,

Deltic

Cravens DMU,

Class 116 DMU

Class 125 DMU

 

Class 15, 24 and 31 were fitted with LT trip cocks and could work the widened lines. 24s and 15s mainly on freight. Class 33 were known to have worked freight via Snow Hill and Hotel Curve on to the GNR line. 26s, 21s and 23s were not normally permitted on the LT lines without a pilotman as they had no trip cock but would be seen on Moorgate trains on rare occasions. Freight trains via Snow Hill finished in 1968 (I think).

 

Class 116 and 125 were not permitted on the widened lines.

 

350 0-6-0 shunters were used to trip the fuel tankers in and out but this was normally at night.

 

Met-cam and Gloucester DMUs were seen at the Cross from time to time. 

 

There were also regular LT stock changes for the Northern and City line. LT Battery loco top and tail a LT tube EMU.

[stewartingram]

Moving on a bit in time...

 

kx_0027.jpg

kx_0028.jpg

kx_0029.jpg

D5000 was a WCML machine. I saw its unique livery at Bletchley a few times. What is with the blue 33 at KGX?

 

Stewart

[Guest]

What is with the blue 33 at KGX?

 

From Post #153

 

"The 33 was bought with a DJ Class 71 for another project, so is unlikely to be seen on the layout".

 

Having said that, I wouldn't take my rolling stock choices too seriously. There will be some unlikely visitors.

[leopardml2341]

Just found this thread, duly following

[PMP]

Clive’s post #154 regarding headcode disc 31’s being rare at KX got me thinking. Whilst there were far fewer around than the headcode variety I do recall seeing them, I lived at WGC 20 miles north and saw trains across Welwyn viaduct pretty much every day, and WGC station 3-4 times a week. So, I had a look in my 1975 combine volume and one of the disc 31’s is underlined, 31125 D5543. This would have been seen either at WGC or between Knebworth and the cross. There’s a very slim chance it could have been seen on the Hertford loop line, but unlikely. The reason I’m sure of this is I didn’t ‘spot’ and rarely went ‘abroad’ to watch trains so I wouldn’t have seen it anywhere else, and my combine stayed at home. I feel they were more common than Clive thinks they may have been, but were definitely outnumbered significantly by their headcode fitted siblings. Wish I’d taken more notes!

[manna]

G'Day Folks

 

Class 33's were not unknown around Finsbury Park, in the early 70;s 'Vep's' were dragged down from York, (I think via Lincoln) and stabled at East Goods Yard, to await collection by the Southern, normally a cl 33, but sometimes by a Electro /diesel, I have seen Cl 33's stabled at Hornsey steam shed, I've worked cl 33's to Ferme Park c/s to drop of and collect ECS, using Harringay curve.

 

manna

[sb67]

Great pics Pete, I love the fact you can run a wide range of stock on the layout, great stuff.

Steve.

[Clive Mortimore]

Clive’s post #154 regarding headcode disc 31’s being rare at KX got me thinking. Whilst there were far fewer around than the headcode variety I do recall seeing them, I lived at WGC 20 miles north and saw trains across Welwyn viaduct pretty much every day, and WGC station 3-4 times a week. So, I had a look in my 1975 combine volume and one of the disc 31’s is underlined, 31125 D5543. This would have been seen either at WGC or between Knebworth and the cross. There’s a very slim chance it could have been seen on the Hertford loop line, but unlikely. The reason I’m sure of this is I didn’t ‘spot’ and rarely went ‘abroad’ to watch trains so I wouldn’t have seen it anywhere else, and my combine stayed at home. I feel they were more common than Clive thinks they may have been, but were definitely outnumbered significantly by their headcode fitted siblings. Wish I’d taken more notes!

Hi Paul

 

The main reason any GER or Sheffield area allocated Brush Type 2s including those with disc headcodes were rare at Kings Cross was they did not have trip cock gear.  They did turn up at Kings Cross normally replacing a Finsbury Park loco that had failed in the Cambridge area but were sent back as fast as they could.

 

Engineering work on the Liverpool St to Cambridge line would bring GER locos to the Cross but this wasn't a daily event and I have tried to help Pete with "normal " sightings not the rare ones other wise I would have included "Western Fusilier" which ran a special in November 1976.  

[stevea]

To add to Paul's listing of diesels.

 

Pre yellow panel era

Class 26,

Class 21,

Class 24,

Class 31, toffee apple and other disc headcode locos were GER based and very rare at Kings Cross

Class 23,

Class 20,

Class 40,

Class 46,

Deltic,

Cravens DMU

Falcon

Lion

 

Green small yellow panel era

Class 31,

Class 23, refurbished with headcode panel

Class 20, gone by 1966

Class 15,

Class 37, mainly split headcode Immingham locos

Class 24, including two tone green, gone by 1967

Class 40,

Class 46,

Class 47,

Deltic

Cravens DMU,

DP2

 

Green full yellow ends, and blue pre TOPS era

Class 31, some green full yellow had the arrows logo

Class 23, refurbished with headcode panel

Class 15, some green full yellow had the arrows logo, no blue ones

Class 40,

Class 46,

Class 47,

Deltic

Cravens DMU,

Class 116 DMU no green full yellow ends but green small panels during this period

Class 125 DMU no green full yellow ends but green small panels during this period

 

Blue post TOPS

Class 31,

Class 40,

Class 46,

Class 47,

Deltic

Cravens DMU,

Class 116 DMU

Class 125 DMU

 

Class 15, 24 and 31 were fitted with LT trip cocks and could work the widened lines. 24s and 15s mainly on freight. Class 33 were known to have worked freight via Snow Hill and Hotel Curve on to the GNR line. 26s, 21s and 23s were not normally permitted on the LT lines without a pilotman as they had no trip cock but would be seen on Moorgate trains on rare occasions. Freight trains via Snow Hill finished in 1968 (I think).

 

Class 116 and 125 were not permitted on the widened lines.

 

350 0-6-0 shunters were used to trip the fuel tankers in and out but this was normally at night.

 

Met-cam and Gloucester DMUs were seen at the Cross from time to time.

 

There were also regular LT stock changes for the Northern and City line. LT Battery loco top and tail a LT tube EMU.

[Guest]

...and very grateful I am too.

By my own admission, I'm often left confused by small differences within classes of loco, so advice is always welcome.

 

Two examples of the way I see things...

If a 33 would have been seen at Finsbury Park (and as a Southern Region driver in the late 80s/90s, I worked off-region with them often enough), then that's good enough for me to assume that one "may" have crept into the Cross at some point. Just because no-one saw it and/or photographed it, doesn't mean it couldn't have happened. I've sat on one in the dead of night at places as diverse as Mitre Bridge, Old Oak, North Pole Junction, Ripple Lane etc. to know that they got about a bit.

Skinheads. You gotta love 'em. I accept that they may have been far more common working out of Liverpool Street, but I'm afraid I like them too much not to have one for the layout.

 

Sadly (depending on your point of view), a purist I am not. I'd like to try and keep things kind of believable, but I'm not averse to running stuff just 'cos I like it!

[stevea]

Hi, Clive

Just a slight correction to your fascinating list: the syp 37s which you assume were Immingham locos (presumably because they worked in from Cleethorpes?) were probably Darnall or (from 1964?) Tinsley locos, as the first Immingham 37 was 6938 allocated for a month in 1969 (centre headcode, not sure of livery but seem to recall seeing it in green fye in my early spotting days in the early 70s) followed in Aug 1972 by the first bulk allocation of the type to Immingham for the Santon iron ore workings. I don't recall any of the first main batch of 37s allocated to Immingham being green. Most would have had to have been through works before arrival to have been fitted with air brakes for the iron ore duties. Allocation dates quoted above from Roger Harris' excellent 'Allocation History of BR Diesels and Electrics' series. Most of my early observations of Immingham 37s were from walks along the gas pipes (see Peterborough North post) after a cycle ride along the 'sea' (Humber bank) wall from Grimsby

Regards

Steve

[chris p bacon]

 

Skinheads. You gotta love 'em. I accept that they may have been far more common working out of Liverpool Street, but I'm afraid I like them too much not to have one for the layout.

 

 

There was a 31 based at FP which was a skinhead but not an early toffee apple one. We saw it regularly on the P'boro outer suburban/commuter, I'm sure I've got a pic but it might take a while to pin down.

 

Edit to add I think it was a 31/4 (FP ETH fitted)

Edited May 21, 2018 by chris p bacon

[stevea]

There was a 31 based at FP which was a skinhead but not an early toffee apple one. We saw it regularly on the P'boro outer suburban/commuter, I'm sure I've got a pic but it might take a while to pin down.

[stevea]

Chris

FP skinhead 31s according to Roger Harris:

31418 Oct 75-Apr 76

31108 Mar 74-May 77

31125 Sep 73-Apr 77, May 78-May 79

D5552 May-Jun 65

31134 Nov 74 briefly (- new number of D5552)

hth

Steve

[chris p bacon]

Chris

FP skinhead 31s according to Roger Harris:

31418 Oct 75-Apr 76

31108 Mar 74-May 77

31125 Sep 73-Apr 77, May 78-May 79

D5552 May-Jun 65

31134 Nov 74 briefly (- new number of D5552)

hth

Steve

 

 

Excellent ! They're the ones I was thinking of, 108 & 418 were regulars through Sandy.

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Pete

 

Class 33 at kings Cross, see "Power of 33s" plate 26, it shows D6517 heading to Gas Works Tunnel having come from Hotel Curve 7th August 1964. 

[Baby Deltic]

Class 73's also appeared on the GN occasionally. I have seen a picture of a 73 at Ferme Park. Whether it came through snow Hill or not is anyone's guess.

[Clive Mortimore]

Chris

FP skinhead 31s according to Roger Harris:

31418 Oct 75-Apr 76

31108 Mar 74-May 77

31125 Sep 73-Apr 77, May 78-May 79

D5552 May-Jun 65

31134 Nov 74 briefly (- new number of D5552)

hth

Steve

Hi Steve

 

The number allocated to Finsbury Park is still small compared to 110 different brush Type 2s that were allocated to Finsbury Park especially when your consider that 31 189/91/217-9/22/407/8 had been allocated there from new until the shed closed, which would you likely see on a daily basis? I did say disc headcode Type 2s were RARE, I never said they were unseen. In fact the first Type 2s to work at Kings Cross were D5500 and D5503 for two days in April 1959.

 

It was an assumption about the English Electric type 3s, not Immingham but Darnall locomotives on the Cleethorpes services I have just checked in my copy of David Percival's "Kings Cross Lineside 1958 to 1984". A must have book for anyone modelling the southern end of the GNR line in diesel days.

 

Back in the 1980s I started to collect information on Kings Cross with the aim of making a model of the whole station, hence the photos I took of the hooks and crannies around milk yard etc. In my collection of photos and books I cannot recall seeing one of a disc headcode class 31. Or seeing one at Kings Cross, Hitchin, Sandy or St Neots as a trainspotter in the late 60s early 70s. I gave up the idea of building Kings Cross when I retired last year and got my railway room, I did use the 1977 track plan as the basis/inspiration for Sheffield Exchange.

[manna]

G'Day Folks

 

Skinhead type 31's always sent KX secondmen into a bit of a flap, as we always worked on roller headcodes, so we always had to ask the driver where to put the disc/lamps.

 

There was a western region working over the GN mainline, 100ton oil tanks to Royston, on the Cambridge branch, that was often worked by a WR class 37, think I've got a picture of a cl 47 working it in the snow, at Wood Green.

 

manna

[chris p bacon]

There was a western region working over the GN mainline, 100ton oil tanks to Royston, on the Cambridge branch, that was often worked by a WR class 37, think I've got a picture of a cl 47 working it in the snow, at Wood Green.

 

manna

 

 

It was usually a 47 when I saw it although 37's were seen.

 

I was working at Royston in the early 80's when it derailed shunting back into the depot and some of the tanks went over. The sight of a 20+ stone shunter overtaking me on the platform was one I'll never forget.

[lmsforever]

Definitely a  smelly Cravens with ratelling windows juddering seats filthy floor dirty windows ,and a plume of grotty smoke as it struggles out of the Cross.What a pleasure rail travel was then people who complain about modern electrics do not know what they missed! The platform looks very good and captures the real thing hope you can decide on a finish that does it justiceCant remember what the colour was but know it looked very well worn ,certainly makes a change from asphalt .Looking forward to seeing more. Chris .

[Swindon 123]

I did make a list of all Trip Cock fitted 31's I could identify/find in records, and came up with the following list.

 

TRIP-COCK  fitted  Class 31

 

                   "D" No.          Tops No.             DB fitted.

                      D5589                31401                 1971,  ETH fitted 1972.

                      D5590                  31171                        1968.

                      D5592                  31402                        1971,  ETH fitted 1972.

                   D5593                31173                        1969.

                   D5594                31174                        1974.

                   D5596                31403                        1972,  ETH fitted 1973.

                   D5602                31181                        1968.

                   D5604                31183                        After 1977 if ever.

                      D5605                  31404                        1968,  ETH fitted 1972.

                   D5606                31405                        1972 + ETH fitted.

                   D5607                31184                        1974.

                   D5608                31185                        1968.

                      D5609                  31186                        1968.

                   D5610                31187                        1969.

                   D5611                31188                        1968.

                   D5612                31189                        1976.

                      D5613                  31190                        1968.

                   D5614                31191                        1969.

                   D5615                31192                        1970.

                   D5622                31198                        1968.

                   D5623                31199                        1970.

                   D5625                31201                        1969.

                   D5626                31202                        1968.

                      D5627                  31203                        1969.

                   D5639                31215                        After 1977 if ever.

                      D5640                  31407                        1969,  ETH fitted 1972.

                   D5642                31217                        1968.

                   D5643                31218                        1969.

                   D5644                31219                        1968.

                   D5645                31220                        1973.

                      D5646                  31408                        1968,  ETH fitted 1972.

                      D5648                  31222                        1970.

                   D5649                31223                        1969.

                   D5650                31224                        1968.

                   D5651                31225                        1968.

                   D5652                31226                        1968.

                      D5653                  31227                        1968.

                   D5671                31243                        1974

                   D5672                31244                        After 1977 if ever.

                   D5673                31245                        1969

                   D5674                31246                        After 1977 if ever.

                   D5675                31247                        1971

                   D5676                31248                        After 1977 if ever.

                   D5677                31249                        1969.

                   D5678                31250                        1968

                   D5679                31251                        After 1977 if ever.

                  

 

Not all of the above resided at FP, but moved depots a bit. As far as I know non other than the above where ever fitted, but a trip cock fitted 31 could be identified, even after removal, by the inset in the buffer beam skirt under the D/A's side window at the front, as in the photo below.

 

With regards to Clive Mortimore's list of locos, class 23 were fitted with trip cocks, and so could travel on the widened lines without restriction, except for the fact nobody lliked them down there on account of the exhaust fumes. In the photo below the connecting vacuum pipe to the trip cock mechanism, along with its isolating handle in the horizontal position, can be seen to the left of the vacuum pipe on D5901.

 

Paul J.

 

Note  List updated with some extra loco numbers added after being in conversation with Clive Mortimore, and checking more photos.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Swindon 123