RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted April 22, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 22, 2018 So it was you that nicked my pint of milk, you owe me threpence and three farthings! Can't remember the last time I saw a doorstep with a pint of milk on it. My next door neighbour still gets a delivery but he's an earlier riser than me........... John 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted April 22, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 22, 2018 (edited) Themselves...in.... shooting....the. Shame really, lots of children still love Thomas, and if Hornby had used a bit of marketing savvy (some hope) they could have exploited other areas that bring Thomas to children e.g. interactive.. But maybe a lot of those already have what they want and are beginning to move on to models of real trains........... I suspect there are two main reasons, both financial. The cost of the licence and the fact that the tooling is, or soon will be, in need of expensive and extensive* replacement. *The appearance of the "characters" in the TV series has changed significantly and Hornby couldn't credibly update the models one at a time could they? The licence fee will be eating into both Hornby's profit margins and their quota of production slots. In short, they may well have calculated that "model trains for adult collectors" produce more of the former and make more sensible use of the latter. John Edited April 22, 2018 by Dunsignalling 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted April 22, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 22, 2018 (edited) I think that the future of the Railroad range is much more important than TTE. The Railroad range has had an identity problem and is really two ranges, one for what is left of the toy trainset market and one offering lower cost and spec models for the enthusiast market. I think that the concept of an entry level product range is important and that there is a market for lower cost but still good models. Other companies such as Piko and Athearn have been successful in developing a multi tiered product range, certainly they have done it more effectively than Hornby. Hornby are the only OO company serving those segments and I do think there's a market for the higher enthusiast tier but Hornby need to figure out what they want Railroad to be. I think it needs to be split out into a start and a hobby range. I'd suggest a better idea might be to dump the remaining Tri-ang level stuff altogether and have a unified "starter" range that is (1) sufficiently robust for kids old enough to deal with metal rails and low voltage electricity, (2) good enough to form the basis of their first "proper" layouts with a bit of fettling when the time comes and (3) in line with the expectations of adults who want cheaper models and aren't bothered by reduced detail and/or want to improve them for themselves. I'd also advocate spare bodies being made available, primarily as replacements for those customers who have "had a go" with less than stellar results, but offering a side-benefit in catering for the EM/P4 fraternity. I'm not entirely sure that my concept of "Railroad" could still offer a home to the traditional 0-4-0 starter locos, but Jinty-based (also pannier and J52/83) 0-6-0Ts aren't any more difficult to handle and needn't be significantly more expensive. A coherent range of dimensionally accurate but sparsely detailed models with long term availability would also encourage our under-pressure cottage industry folk to invest in producing detailing and conversion parts/kits of the kind we used to get from Craftsman and Crownline, knowing there would be an ongoing demand for them. John Edited April 22, 2018 by Dunsignalling 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 Such a namby pamby world we live in today. Bite off a bufferbeam, stab with a fishplate !!!!! Before I got my first Tri-ang TT train set (aged 9) I "helped" (played) with my elder brothers set in Mum & Dads bedroom. The controller mains lead went straight up to the light socket, a splitter there had a push on/off switch - no earth either, reached from a wobbly chair, fell off a couple of times !!! Not recommended but that was how it was back then. We survived !! Brit15 This (note the tools) was intended for children too young for Meccano.... https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MECCANO-DINKY-BUILDER-PRE-WAR-SET-/253567323596?hash=item3b09ca4dcc I survived my set (and Meccano)! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris M Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 (edited) Thomas teetering on the brink.. Ok, he’s a Bachmann not Hornby. I agree that the notice with its spelling mistakes does look rather like “fake news”. Edited April 22, 2018 by Chris M 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Scottish-Exile Posted April 22, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 22, 2018 Some interesting comments and I'm with those that say that with licencing costs etc Hornby are better off ditching the range. I have 2 young grandsons, who always want to watch Grandpa's trains. They are besotted with watching the locos move which are all my standard 26's, 27's etc and I've never heard them ask for Thomas. The Days Out With Thomas is frequently on at our nearby Llangollen railway. We've looked at taking the grandkids, but the cost is too much for something that they are just a bit to young (4 & 2) to fully appreciate, and by the time they're say, 7 & 5 I guess they'll have no real interest in Thomas. As for Thomas, I guess he needs a facelift ... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E3109 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 The fibreglass renditions always seem to be a bit spaced out, not a patch on the JT Kenney (?) renditions in Thomas books of yore. Send them all for drug tests! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 Can't remember the last time I saw a doorstep with a pint of milk on it. My next door neighbour still gets a delivery but he's an earlier riser than me........... John I see one every other day - my own. Still like my milk in 'recyclable' glass bottles and it helps keep a nice guy in work and restricts the number of times I have to go to a supermarket. (CJL) 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted April 22, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 22, 2018 Interesting points you raise there Phil and surely the 'moral argument' is that the notion of faces on trains cannot be copyrighted? Its not having faces that is an issue - rather locos having faces which then look like TtTE Characters. Sticking a face on the front of an A4 say, isn't a problem - provided you make absolutely sure that there is not the slightest hint of anything TtTE - however tenuous accompanying it. Paint the A4 grey and then you are getting very close to Matel's lawyers accusing you of infringing their rights to a grey A4 called 'Spencer'. The problem with Stepney is the TtTE character is painted in a genuine railway company livery (LBSCR) - which its current owners have every right to use. Had Stepney been painted sky blue in the TtTE universe then things would be a lot more clear cut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E3109 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 There was a book (or series of books) entitled 'Sammy The Shunter' in the 1950s so possibly pre dating the Rev Awdry stuff. Sammy had a face on its smoke box. Thus I fail to see why the current gangste...er owners can cite copyright regarding trains with faces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E3109 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 Its not having faces that is an issue - rather locos having faces which then look like TtTE Characters. Sticking a face on the front of an A4 say, isn't a problem - provided you make absolutely sure that there is not the slightest hint of anything TtTE - however tenuous accompanying it. Paint the A4 grey and then you are getting very close to Matel's lawyers accusing you of infringing their rights to a grey A4 called 'Spencer'. The problem with Stepney is the TtTE character is painted in a genuine railway company livery (LBSCR) - which its current owners have every right to use. Had Stepney been painted sky blue in the TtTE universe then things would be a lot more clear cut. It's crap though innit, multinationals have (perhaps inadvertently) profited from, say Gresley's works of art with impunity, and certainly no royalties to the Gresley's Estate, due no doubt to an absolute lack of knowledge of the subject matter and yet when the tables are turned, they run to their lawyers at the drop of a hat. Right that's it. Decided I'm gonna buy the rusting hulk that is 45015, get a top paint job done on it and renumber it D199 just to piss them right off ... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E3109 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 Just thought too, wasn't 'Silver Link' and its sisters grey, or greyish at one time? Sod 'em, an A4 needs going into that livery, and renaming 'Silver FRO Mattel' hahaha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Smith Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 Slightly topic related. The tv versions shown in the US have a North American accented narrator and the fat controller has been re-named Sir Topham Hatt, I guess this is 'politically correct'. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E3109 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 To be fair, that was his actual name although Awdry rarely referred to him as such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted April 23, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 23, 2018 Slightly topic related. The tv versions shown in the US have a North American accented narrator and the fat controller has been re-named Sir Topham Hatt, I guess this is 'politically correct'. Not allowed to use the word "fat" in the US. The "Supersize Controller" isn't quite as catchy.............. Cheers. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted April 23, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 23, 2018 Just thought too, wasn't 'Silver Link' and its sisters grey, or greyish at one time? They were - but as with Stepney, providing the grey / silver you paint them in is a Genuine LNER scheme (and not a copy of the TV characters somewhat simplified lining style) plus you refrain from re-naming it 'Spencer', then there is nothing to fear. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted April 23, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 23, 2018 (edited) There was a book (or series of books) entitled 'Sammy The Shunter' in the 1950s so possibly pre dating the Rev Awdry stuff. Sammy had a face on its smoke box. Thus I fail to see why the current gangste...er owners can cite copyright regarding trains with faces. Erm, I thought I clarified that earlier. A train with a face is no different to a 4 fingered chocolate bar. https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=1bf6b58e-9af1-41b6-a774-9bcb123a42fb https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/law/kitkats-four-fingers-crumble-before-court-of-appeal/5061141.article As you say trains have been drawn with faces long before TtTe got going - just as 4 fingered chocolate bars were around before Kit-Kat commenced production of theirs Both are free to exist as the legal profession have decreed that such things are not 'unique' enough to qualify as trademarks. HOWEVER if you combine that face / chocolate bar design with name and livery / packaging design that tries to replicate that featured by the TtTe character / Kit- Kat, then the lawyers will come calling AND WILL WIN THE COURT CASE! Edited April 23, 2018 by phil-b259 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E3109 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 I get all that Phil and much obliged for what you've said, however my point still stands. If Mattel feel they can sue with impunity then why can't the Gresley family counterclaim in the case of the A4, what's left of the GWR (Duck, the 0-4-2) the BR Residual Body and/or Bombardier or whoever, bearing in mind that with diesels alone Mattel have profited by depicting a Co-Bo, a Peak, a Hymek, a 40, a 350 pilot, and even a Western and a rancid Ped in one picture (albeit in the original series)? Maybe the Port of Par should countersue them too for 'Bill and Ben' [sic]. It's not so much the fact that they run to their lawyers when let's be frank they're profiting from those designs, it's more the fact that double standards are being applied and they see no irony in that. This is what happens when you sell your soul to the devil. I'm sure the Great Reverend, being a God-fearing man never envisaged such a palaver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted April 23, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 23, 2018 Not allowed to use the word "fat" in the US. The "Supersize Controller" isn't quite as catchy.............. Cheers. Mick How about the short for his weight controller? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris M Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 I get all that Phil and much obliged for what you've said, however my point still stands. If Mattel feel they can sue with impunity then why can't the Gresley family counterclaim in the case of the A4, what's left of the GWR (Duck, the 0-4-2) the BR Residual Body and/or Bombardier or whoever, bearing in mind that with diesels alone Mattel have profited by depicting a Co-Bo, a Peak, a Hymek, a 40, a 350 pilot, and even a Western and a rancid Ped in one picture (albeit in the original series)? Maybe the Port of Par should countersue them too for 'Bill and Ben' [sic]. It's not so much the fact that they run to their lawyers when let's be frank they're profiting from those designs, it's more the fact that double standards are being applied and they see no irony in that. This is what happens when you sell your soul to the devil. I'm sure the Great Reverend, being a God-fearing man never envisaged such a palaver. I guess it all depends if there is a registered owner of each design. Logically the government should be the owners of the design for all BR locos plus probably the designs of the big four. Maybe they are indeed missing out on a revenue stream, or maybe it would cost to much in legal work to make it worthwhile to pursue. Maybe permission was given to the reverend when the books were first published. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hroth Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 I guess it all depends if there is a registered owner of each design. Logically the government should be the owners of the design for all BR locos plus probably the designs of the big four. Maybe they are indeed missing out on a revenue stream, or maybe it would cost to much in legal work to make it worthwhile to pursue. Maybe permission was given to the reverend when the books were first published. In those far off days, when the Rev created the Railway series, the idea if "image rights" wasn't even a twinkle in a lawyers eye. No one even thought that representation of a locomotive or its livery was something one could wring vast sums in licencing out of. Or that copyright embodied in a literary work could be extended so far. Nowadays its all different, with the USA having extended copyrights to infinity and beyond, to prop up corporations like Disney, enabling them (for example) to milk a 90 year old mouse for eternity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyram Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 Let’s not forget that both “City of Truro” and “Flying Scotsman” were featured in stories in the original railway series. Christopher included “Mallard” and “Green Arrow” in one of his books. Scotsman (in LNER livery with smoke deflecters and two tenders) appeared in the recent TTTE film “The Great Race”. A previous film featured a character called “Stephen” who was a copy of “Rocket” right down to carrying this name on the name plates. I wonder if NRM permission was sought for their use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted April 23, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 23, 2018 (edited) I see one every other day - my own. Still like my milk in 'recyclable' glass bottles and it helps keep a nice guy in work and restricts the number of times I have to go to a supermarket. (CJL) Living alone, I gave up on doorstep delivery when working, all too often I left home before the milk arrived and came home to a bottle that was well on the way to "off" on a warm day. I am quite sensitive to noticing anything that's even slightly "on the turn". I nowadays buy the supermarket stuff once a week, get it home and in the fridge asap and it seems to last well beyond the "use by date". I've just checked my just-finished 4-pinter. The label says 17 Apr. and yesterday evening's final cuppa tasted just fine. EDIT: Sorry John Edited April 23, 2018 by Dunsignalling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 (edited) At one time companies paid for their livery to be on models as advertising I believe. Now things are the other way round. In those far off days, when the Rev created the Railway series, the idea if "image rights" wasn't even a twinkle in a lawyers eye. No one even thought that representation of a locomotive or its livery was something one could wring vast sums in licencing out of. Or that copyright embodied in a literary work could be extended so far. Nowadays its all different, with the USA having extended copyrights to infinity and beyond, to prop up corporations like Disney, enabling them (for example) to milk a 90 year old mouse for eternity. Possibly one needs to be careful with expressions like 'to infinity and beyond' as well. (ignoring that the phrase doesn't make sense - by definition, infinity cannot have anything beyond it....) And don't get me started on the Disney Corporation.... Edited April 23, 2018 by Il Grifone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Corbs Posted April 23, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 23, 2018 So is it all a load of rubbish then? A fake statement? Should we lock the topic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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