Overhead Warning Flashes

[muddys-blues]

Hi, does anybody know definate time scale of when the BR Network went from Red type overhead warning flashs to the Yellow triangle type.

 

Yours in anticipation

[darrel]

late 90s I think

[ants]

Hello

 

about 1997ish

 

Have a read of page 5

 

http://www.rgsonline.co.uk/Railway_Group_Standards/Energy/Railway%20Group%20Standards/GMRT1041%20Iss%201.pdf

 

Regards

 

Anthony

 

 

[Hammer]

To be compliant with Statutory Instrument 1996 No. 341, which came into force on 1 April 1996, all red warning flash signs and associated supplementary signs shall be replaced. The replacement signs shall comply with clause 4.4 of this Standard. Replacement should be staged such that, so far as is practicable, confusion does not arise at interfaces between new and old.

 

Strange - there are still a couple of the red flashes in evidence at Haymarket Station.

[muddys-blues]

Many thanks to those who have reply, your knowledge is invaluable.

[Steadfast]

The warning flashes are commonly referred to as pre and post 98. I'm pretty sure it was summer 98 that they first put in an appearance. 59005 was repainted into revised Yeoman late spring 98 and retained old flashes, 59001 was done a couple of months later and got the revised type.

July or August 98 seems to be the roll out from the quick (unscientific) fotopic trawl I've just done

HTH

jo

[Ray H]

Reviving this post with a related question.

 

Does anyone know roughly when the warning flashes started to appear on locos and by what year it would have been unusual to find a loco not so adourned?

[Edwin_m]

I think the Southern EMUs didn't get them until the early 90s because there was nowhere they could run under OLE until the Channel Tunnel introduced a short section at Dollands Moor. 

[Bill Radford]

Surprisingly the WCML electrics were devoid of them in the 80s - looking at the photos in the P5 Stock Book from 1990 only Class 89 & 91 (ECML) had them.

 

Something to do with "It's an electric loco where do you think the power comes from?"

[Chamby]

The warning flashes are commonly referred to as pre and post 98. I'm pretty sure it was summer 98 that they first put in an appearance. 59005 was repainted into revised Yeoman late spring 98 and retained old flashes, 59001 was done a couple of months later and got the revised type.

July or August 98 seems to be the roll out from the quick (unscientific) fotopic trawl I've just done

HTH

jo

 

Railtrack standards documentation cites that this standard came into force on 6th December 1997.  Realistically, people wouldn't have noticed their use straight away, so 1998 would be about right for what was visible operationally.

[The Johnster]

If Ray in post 7 means when did the red flashes first appear, it was concurrent with the opening of the first 25kv electrified section of the Euston/Birmingham/Liverpool/Manchester scheme IIRC.  Locos and stock which did not have facilities for crew or staff to climb on top of them were not given them, but large notices appeared in brake vans warning guards not to raise the stove pipe.  They were applied in yards and depots, and were originally just stickyback labels, so appeared fairly quickly.  I would suggest that every steam loco still in service post 1963 probably had them, and some ex LMS locos were prohibited from running under the wires due to loading gauge issues; these were identified by a yellow diagonal stripe on the cab side, and i cannot remember if they carried the warning labels; it would have been anomalous if they did as they were not permitted under the wires anyway!  But not that unlikely; scenario, shed foreman finds a labourer who isn't doing anything at the moment and tells him to go round the shed sticking these labels there, there, and there, look, it's on the diagram, on any loco he can find without them, hands him a wodge of labels, retreats to his office for a cuppa, and lets him get on with it!

[Wickham Green]

If Ray in post 7 means when did the red flashes first appear, it was concurrent with the opening of the first 25kv electrified section of the Euston/Birmingham/Liverpool/Manchester scheme IIRC.  Locos and stock which did not have facilities for crew or staff to climb on top of them were not given them, but large notices appeared in brake vans warning guards not to raise the stove pipe.  They were applied in yards and depots, and were originally just stickyback labels, so appeared fairly quickly.  I would suggest that every steam loco still in service post 1963 probably had them, and some ex LMS locos were prohibited from running under the wires due to loading gauge issues; these were identified by a yellow diagonal stripe on the cab side, and i cannot remember if they carried the warning labels; it would have been anomalous if they did as they were not permitted under the wires anyway!  But not that unlikely; scenario, shed foreman finds a labourer who isn't doing anything at the moment and tells him to go round the shed sticking these labels there, there, and there, look, it's on the diagram, on any loco he can find without them, hands him a wodge of labels, retreats to his office for a cuppa, and lets him get on with it!

In lateral thinking mode - what was the situation under 1500V DC wires in the years prior to ( main line ) 25kV ? .......... were there warning flashes or not ?

[iands]

Just a quick look on rail-online website at some old photos, there are some MetroVic Co-Bo's with the red flashes on dating from 1961 if this helps.

[stewartingram]

OHL flashes cwere on stock that went under the wires on the WCML. But due to restricted clearances, as the wiring was progressively extended towards London, certain classes of steam loco were banned south of Crewe, and carried yellow diagonals on the cabsides.

 

Stewart

[Steamport Southport]

I believe it was during the GE electrification that the overhead warning flashes appeared. 1959 I think.

 

 

The prohibited locomotives with yellow stripes were Duchess, Jubilee, Royal Scots, Patriots, Fowler 4Fs, LNWR 0-8-0s, three 8Fs (because of the WD top feed) and a few A1. A2, A3 and A4s that worked into Carlisle and Glasgow.

 

Not all got them. Also 72006 Clan Mackenzie which apparently was a mistake.

 

 

 

 

Jason

[Wickham Green]

I believe it was during the GE electrification that the overhead warning flashes appeared. 1959 I think.

 

 

The prohibited locomotives with yellow stripes were Duchess, Jubilee, Royal Scots, Patriots, Fowler 4Fs, LNWR 0-8-0s, three 8Fs (because of the WD top feed) and a few A1. A2, A3 and A4s that worked into Carlisle and Glasgow.

 

Not all got them. Also 72006 Clan Mackenzie which apparently was a mistake.

 

 

 

 

Jason

One of the 8Fs was a mistake too  -  48773 had a standard top feed long before then !

[Ray H]

I've recently bought an unnumbered O gauge Class 15 diesel. I was surprised to see images of several of the class still without the flashes when they had yellow panels on the ends.

 

I was also unaware that the ban on steam south of Crewe didn't apply to every steam loco. Mind you I don't know where I got the impression that it from. 

[stewartingram]

I was still at school (until) 1965), next to the railway line south of Cambridge station. In those days my spotting notebook used to have extra notes, primarily for locos with SYP, but for a while also the flashes. They were definitely not concurrent in fitment.

 

Stewart

[The Johnster]

In lateral thinking mode - what was the situation under 1500V DC wires in the years prior to ( main line ) 25kV ? .......... were there warning flashes or not ?

 

 The 1500V DC schemes were considered to be more self contained than the 25kv, which had by the end of the 50s been adopted as standard and was to be used for all future schemes, in line with UIC policy.  Also, the wires were generally much higher set than the 25kv wires, and posed less of a threat to crews clambering about on top of locos.  The first big LMR 25kv scheme meant that a very large number of trains would be operating under the wires from depots unfamiliar with the dangers of working with high voltage electricity, and it was presumably felt that a nationwide application of warning labels was advisable.

 

The 1500V schemes did not have warning flashes on the stock associated with them AFAIK, but local warning notices would presumably have appeared on the equipment.

[LMS2968]

One of the 8Fs was a mistake too  -  48773 had a standard top feed long before then !

8773 received the standard top feed in June 1966, making the stripe incorrect from that date.

[adb968008]

It should be noted there was different types of red overhead warning flashes also, those in the 1960’s differed from those in the 1980’s.

 

The original flashes, seen here on a 1968 black 5, have a straight upwards pointing arrow, with DANGER in the top 1/3

 

.https://www.semaphoresandsteam.com/p407312067/h1F88A08E#h1f88a08e

 

The later design, which i believe was TOPS era, or early 1980’s is a continuous angled arc with DANGER in the centre

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/37190-dalzell/9399190633

[Clive Mortimore]

 The 1500V DC schemes were considered to be more self contained than the 25kv, which had by the end of the 50s been adopted as standard and was to be used for all future schemes, in line with UIC policy.  Also, the wires were generally much higher set than the 25kv wires, and posed less of a threat to crews clambering about on top of locos.  The first big LMR 25kv scheme meant that a very large number of trains would be operating under the wires from depots unfamiliar with the dangers of working with high voltage electricity, and it was presumably felt that a nationwide application of warning labels was advisable.

 

The 1500V schemes did not have warning flashes on the stock associated with them AFAIK, but local warning notices would presumably have appeared on the equipment.

The normal contact wire height of both Mk1 25 KV AC was the same as 1500 V DC, 16 ft 6ins. The potential of an arc from 25000V is greater than 1500V. You do not need to be touching the wire before the electricity uses you as a means of an earth. 

[adb968008]

The 1500V schemes did not have warning flashes on the stock associated with them AFAIK, but local warning notices would presumably have appeared on the equipment.

Even the class 504 Bury line units had overhead warning flashes, despite there being no overhead between Manchester and Bury since 1916 and until after 1991.

Seen here in drivers window...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/66289212@N07/27739033682

 

 

No AC Electrics carried warning flashes when introduced, AC or DC, as the requirement for the flashes was to place them at roof access points, which Electrics were specifically designed not to have any reason for the crew to go up there, unlike steam/diesel/rolling stock.

 

The rule book isnt just a set of laws determined by commitee, its paid for in lives and lessons learned, once it was seen people would shimmy up the cab doors, stand on the cab front grab rails etc, they were spread around wider in use, which would seem to be early 1980’s when the new OHLE flash & white (later orange) cantrail stripe was introduced, and just after Woodhead ceased.

 

If the 76’s had still been with us by 1987, i’d imagine they would have two on the front, one top corner after the cab door and orange cantrail like all others.

[adb968008]

Also, the wires were generally much higher set than the 25kv wires, and posed less of a threat to crews clambering about on top of locos. The first big LMR 25kv scheme meant that a very large number of trains would be operating under the wires from depots unfamiliar with the dangers of working with high voltage electricity, and it was presumably felt that a nationwide application of warning labels was advisable.

 

The wires were at the same height, and it has happened that something left Piccadilly on 1500vdc and headed towards Longsight, with consequential bad ending.

When the Dinting line was converted to 25kv, the same masts were used, and still are today.

 

As mentioned previous, OHLE has been around over 100 years, much of it in places today that are 3rd rail... if you look along the trackside from Clapham Junction via Balham to West Croydon and onwards to Sutton remains are evident in several places.

The dangers were well known, it was introduction of greater Health and Safety in the late 1960’s that saw them introduced, as climbing onto stock was generally less dangerous than being on the track. Increased electrification changed the operating environment, that shared infrastructure using existing rollingstock, and locomotives and so introduced an increased risk that needed mitigation. To this day there isnt a “Danger Live 3rd Rail” sticker carried on 750vdc stock... its an accepted environmental risk.

[The Johnster]

I have always considered the lack of 3rd rail electrocution warning a bit grimly humorous; I have a mental image of some hapless track worker on the Southern Region gazing skywards looking for the overhead wires he's just been warned about by a warning label on a loco or stock, and taking a heedless step towards the 3rd rail...

 

But it was, as has been said, a well known and 'accepted' hazard, whereas 25kv overhead cables on busy main lines were a relatively recent thing, at a time when there were still plenty of steam locos around on which firemen climbed to put water bags in the tanks, or trim coal, without a well established fear of getting too high up.  C & W staff went high as well, and coaches had steps on the ends for roof access; these were progressively removed as mk1 stock was refurbished and the holes plated over, which induced a previously non-existent rust issue.

 

It was worse in the US, where walking along the roofs of trains seems to have been a normal part of life, and resulted in many falling accidents.  The handbrake wheels and linkage for uncoupling freight cars was on top of them, adding an extra dimension of danger to yard work!