DCC Control of Turnouts

[brossard]

I've begun the tracklaying stage of my 0 gauge layout.  See my thread link below.

 

My DCC system is NCE for which I have the 5A booster.

 

My plan is to use Tortoise motors.  I know these aren't as good as Cobalt but they are left over from previous layouts and work well enough.  I will use 0.032" operating wire.

 

I'm looking for accessory decoders for these and I think the DCC Concepts accessory decoder is suitable:  https://www.dccconcepts.com/product/cobalt-ip-dcc-decoder-stall-motor-drive-type-1-outputhigh-power/

 

I don't want to get overly complicated (or pricey) so my question is what other DCC Concepts products do I need for optimal operation.

 

For example, do I need this relay?  https://www.dccconcepts.com/product/cobalt-relay-extension-board/

 

I'm rather tempted to get some levers  https://www.dccconcepts.com/product-category/the-cobalt-collection/cobalt-signal-levers/ for those turnouts that would be signal box controlled.  For others I plan to use momentary on switches.

 

Thoughts?

 

Thanks

Edited June 18, 2018 by brossard

[Stephen Freeman]

I've begun the tracklaying stage of my 0 gauge layout.  See my thread link below.

 

My DCC system is NCE for which I have the 5A booster.

 

My plan is to use Tortoise motors.  I know these aren't as good as Cobalt but they are left over from previous layouts and work well enough.  I will use 0.032" operating wire.

 

I'm looking for accessory decoders for these and I think the DCC Concepts accessory decoder is suitable:  https://www.dccconcepts.com/product/cobalt-ip-dcc-decoder-stall-motor-drive-type-1-outputhigh-power/

 

I don't want to get overly complicated (or pricey) so my question is what other DCC Concepts products do I need for optimal operation.

 

For example, do I need this relay?  https://www.dccconcepts.com/product/cobalt-relay-extension-board/

 

I'm rather tempted to get some levers  https://www.dccconcepts.com/product-category/the-cobalt-collection/cobalt-signal-levers/ for those turnouts that would be signal box controlled.  For others I plan to use momentary on switches.

 

Thoughts?

 

Thanks

The most cost effective solution is the MERG unit but you don't say say whether or not you need position feedback etc . DCC control of points and signals can be fraught with difficulties and frustrations but if you really must, then check out Panelpro, does need a computer etc of course.

[RFS]

My plan is to use Tortoise motors.  I know these aren't as good as Cobalt but they are left over from previous layouts and work well enough.  I will use 0.032" operating wire.

 

 

Tortoise turnout motors have been around a long time and have established a reputation for ruggedness and reliability, whereas the Cobalt - in its various versions - has not been as reliable.

 

As far as DCC operation is concerned, the best accessory decoder for Tortoises is the NCE Switch-8.  Current version is the MK2.  I have 4 of the MK2s (and 3 MK1s) with 60+ Tortoises and have no problem at all with reliability. 

[brossard]

Thanks Stephen, electronics are well out of my comfort zone, so keeping things simple is a major factor.  I never thought of position feedback - for turnouts I assume.  I don't currently have a laptop although I'll probably have to get one at some point.

 

Robert, thanks.  Yes, NCE Switch 8 is something to look at.

 

John

[Ian Morgan]

If you want to use DCC to control points, it is advisable to have a separate DCC bus for the accessory decoders, with some sort of cut-out in the feed to the track. This is because the most common cause of shorts on a DCC layout is running a loco into incorrectly set points. With the DCC shorted, you are not able to change the points and remove the short circuit. Having the accessories on a separate bus will allow the points to be changed when the track is short-circuited.

[Nigelcliffe]

As others have said, the Tortoise is probably a more reliable and better track record product than the Cobalt.  

 

One thing not asked so far is:  why are you proposing accessory decoders for turnout control ?    What do you expect to gain by adding those accessory decoders and their control ?   

 

For example, do you want a switch panel, or lever frame, to move the turnouts.  If so, using accessory decoders adds to the cost, and the only gain is a reduction in wiring distances around the layout.  (Turnouts operate from an accessory bus, rather than needing one wire from switch to each motor).     The DCC Concepts levers you mentioned will work fine with direct wiring to a motor (Tortoise, Cobalt, even Seep/Peco solenoids!).

 

To use the DCC Concepts levers, or other switches, as inputs to control DCC accessory decoders, you will need some sort of input encoding device (more money). 
Exact device to select depends on your chosen DCC system.  With NCE, the cheapest encoding option is the NCE MiniPanel which will encode 15 turnout switches (need two inputs on the MiniPanel to set the turnouts in each direction) for a little under £40 per device.   But its yet another device to configure (it's quite well designed, not too hard to configure, but its yet another bit of electronics configuring).   But does that actually gain much ?

 

 

Using DCC accessory decoders is not compulsory.  In many cases, conventional wiring of turnout motors is cheaper, simpler, and easier to fault-find.   The Tortoise manual shows how to keep the number of wires from control panel to tortoise to a minimum, and could be combined with the DCC Concepts levers. 

 

 

So, unless the wiring distances are a major issue, I'd forget DCC accessory decoders, and just wire up the switches conventionally to operate the tortoise motors. 

 

 

- Nigel

[brossard]

Excellent Nigel.  My first layout was DCC but I used DC to control the Tortoise turnout motors.  I thought it added complexity because a contol panel and toggle switches are needed and wires have to be run back and forth.

 

I've just been looking into Blue Point manual controllers from Micro Mark (https://www.micromark.com/Blue-Point-Switch-MachineTurnout-Controller).  I was operating a friends layout that has these a few weeks ago and I was impressed.

 

I'm considering that those turnouts that would be controlled by the signal box could be remotely controlled but those with hand levers could be manual. 

 

I will have to have a think about this.

 

John

[Gordon A]

The DCC levers are for DC use.

 

AFAIK if you use a DCC accessory decoder you will be controlling your points with your DCC controller.

 

I am not aware of an interface that allows separate levers / switches to be incorporated into a DCC control system.

 

Gordon A

[brossard]

Thanks for joining in Gordon.  As I read the blurb for the DCC Concepts levers, they incorporate a means to activate a momentary on switch so should be compatible with DCC accessory decoders.

 

John

[Ron Ron Ron]

The DCC levers are for DC use.

 

AFAIK if you use a DCC accessory decoder you will be controlling your points with your DCC controller.

 

I am not aware of an interface that allows separate levers / switches to be incorporated into a DCC control system.

 

Gordon A

 

 

The DCC Concept levers can be used with DCC as well as DC.

 

As for interfaces, there are a number of these available from different manufacturers.

Some of these have been available for years.

DCC Concepts own interface is a modular system (Cobalt Alpha) that will allow the use of levers, switches or buttons to be used to trigger the operation of points (and signals).

It can even be used to adapt an old stud and probe panel to be used to operate points via DCC.

 

You can use this sort of kit to modify or build from scratch, traditional control or mimic panels, or lever frames, to operate points by DCC.

As Nigel says, there is obviously a cost to this solution, but it's all available to buy and install "off-the-shelf".

.

Edited June 18, 2018 by Ron Ron Ron

[Nigelcliffe]

The DCC levers are for DC use.

 

AFAIK if you use a DCC accessory decoder you will be controlling your points with your DCC controller.

 

I am not aware of an interface that allows separate levers / switches to be incorporated into a DCC control system.

 

Gordon A

 

 

There are lots of switch interface options, some go directly into the DCC Command Station. 

For NCE, there are NCE's own devices (MiniPanel), or third party devices.  Same for Digitrax both maker's own devices and third party ones, same for Lenz, etc.. etc..  There are subtle differences in exactly what each device can and cannot achieve.      

They have their uses if multiple push-button control panels are proposed as each panel's lights will show the same status regardless of which is operated.  

But, don't work so well with toggle switches/levers because those switches/levers can't move if a second panel operates the turnout.

 

Or, some accessory decoders will take external switch input in addition to the DCC signal.  Arguably useful if push-buttons are used as a secondary control method, but not sensible with toggle switches/levers in my view.   Useful for local turnout push buttons, but doesn't interface well with a control panel which has lights to show turnout position (because the local buttons don't feed back the turnout change to the central system). 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for joining in Gordon.  As I read the blurb for the DCC Concepts levers, they incorporate a means to activate a momentary on switch so should be compatible with DCC accessory decoders.

 

John

 

Yes, but may be an expensive way to do things..... 

The lever doesn't move unless a human moves it.  So, having a second means of throwing the turnout (eg. via the DCC handset) means the lever will be out of position if operated from a second control device, so operating it from a two places with levers seems a bad idea to me.   

Alternatively, don't spend the money on a DCC accessory decoder.  You still need a length of wire from the switch to the motor.  The same length and wire route which you are proposing to install from the DCC Concepts lever/switch to Accessory Decoder.

 

 

Manufacturer's blurb will often propose quite expensive ways to do very simple things.

[WIMorrison]

There are a few solutions out there that allow push button or lever control of DCC points. Lemme has a solution for Xpressnet and with DCC Concepts IP Digital motors these can all be controlled directly via a switch or DCC, either directly on the motor or through a he DCC panel. IIRC Signatrack are amongst those who make panels that allow for push button operation of DCC points

[Oldddudders]

I am firmly in the camp of DCC trains with simple DC point control, particularly if your layout has a walkaround feel, but if you want DCC for your points, Tony’s Train Exchange in Vermont sells DCC Specialties’ Hare and Wabbit decoders, which simply plug into the base of the Tortoise. I have a few of these which have worked fine for a decade, but stopped installing them simply because local fascia switches via DC were simpler and quicker than dialling up a switch number on the throttle.

 

As far as point motor reliability is concerned, Tortoises have proved 100% good to date.

[Oakydoke]

The DCC levers are for DC use.

 

AFAIK if you use a DCC accessory decoder you will be controlling your points with your DCC controller.

 

I am not aware of an interface that allows separate levers / switches to be incorporated into a DCC control system.

 

Gordon A

Sorry Gordon, I don't mean to be rude but the first two lines of that are incorrect.

The third line is just ignorance of the various bits of kit that have been available, in some cases, for years.

[Ravenser]

The most cost effective solution is the MERG unit but you don't say say whether or not you need position feedback etc . DCC control of points and signals can be fraught with difficulties and frustrations but if you really must, then check out Panelpro, does need a computer etc of course.

 

 

The MERG decoders are cost-effective, but they are also horribly sensitive to shorts and programming signals. I got very tired of pulling out the plug on the auxiliary circuit to reboot the MERG decoder after a short. Consequently it came lout and was replaced by a second DS64

 

As for any programming - that will scramble a MERG decoder for sure , meaning you have to invert the board, fly-lead connect the PowerCab direct to the MERG decoder and re-program. 

 

I use the macros on the NCE PowerCab to provide defacto route control - a macro for every possible route (there are only 14 possible combinations) and the whole lot comes off with a couple of key strokes. No question of forgetting to set up part of the route . With the full NCE system you would have about 60 odd macros to play with . ~I went down this route to avoid having to build a panel and work out how to hang it off the layout and arrange the connections

 

NCE Switch-Its are effective , but I went for Digitrax DS64s because I'm using a PowerCab with only 1.1amp off the supplied transformer  , and the Switch-Its leach power from the track. It doesn't sound like lack of amps is a problem Brossard faces

[brossard]

Wow, I turn my back for a few minutes and the thread is flooded with all sorts of great ideas.  Thanks for the inputs guys, certainly a lot of food for thought. 

 

Even though I'm in Canada (just 'round the corner from Tony's as it were)  I am loathe to order from the US.  Postal charges are high and things are slow to arrive.  I would much rather order from Canada (if possible) or even the UK (postage and delivery are reasonable plus I get VAT knocked off) before getting things from the US.

 

John

[Phil S]

'Paco' is a canadian, I believe, who designed an adaption of the Merg > DCC ENcoder to generate Expressnet - ie act like another handset - a far more useful idea in my view 8-) .....  but I have bought a Czech version which can be ordered either for toggle switches OR push button (momentary switch) operation

Try searching on Paco and DCC   or  DIGI-CZ

 

The main advantage of dcc control of accessories is that it a walkabout handset is used (and I include phones and tablets in that category) - the same device can be used to control trains and track from anywhere - and this is extremely importnat in a garden OR in a larger indoor layout.

 

The 2nd advantage of dcc control of accessories is the POTENTIAL to link ot to a computer - the SIMPLEST and most useful is the 'glass screen' track display showing points and signal positions  - NO FEEDBACK REQUIRED.  The computer can also be used to profer a timetable - just like the flip over cards and Sinclair ZX81s were many years ago .... far more portable than the computers which followed 8-)    This could be used to set routes for you.  A modern 'Crispin' ?

 

THEN, 3rd, if feedback systems are included, it also becomes possible to automate the running of trains - to whatever degree you choose

 

the final advantage, may also be the first .... the stlye of wiring from local modules allows model railways to be modified more easily - whilst a 'traditional central panel' would require major rebuilding !!

Edited June 18, 2018 by Phil S

[brossard]

Hi Phil, a bewildering array of choices.  I was thinking of turnout control that sort of emulates the prototype.  Remote control, from a central bank of levers or switches (signalbox) where applicable and local control (could be DCC or manual) for manually operated turnouts in the yard.

 

John

[Phil S]

I think you'll find 'the prototype' uses computer and glass screens and buttons now nowadays 8-)

Even back in UK steam days major stations had power panels  and ...

levers can be left in place as local shunting opt-outs when a ground frame is released .... using the push button alternate option on some decoders 8-)

 

But in the garden I wouldn't be without wireless total control from a single handset - with 24 sets of points to change (G Scale) - and as an original adopter of Zero-1 my layout had a 2m long Micromimic display of 130 points and signals ... which survived unto the last rebuild of the loft layout - now replaced by large screen panel displays to show the points and signals ... with feedback blocks being added (MERG Hector IR detectors via Roco Feedback modules.

 

For transportable layouts -  tooo many cabled handsets resulted in a May-Day mess of tangled wiring ! - we have 1 cabled handset (backup) and the others are wireless.  Points can be changed on the Touch screen OR handsets - which ever is more convenient.   The same handsets can be used across all the systems - but fall into 2 camps: Massoth (mainly for G) - each can control 2 trains OR 1 train and accessories independantly and simultaneously - with 2-way radio communications of status, current etc.  And Roco Multimaus (cabled)  MultimausPro (their first wireless - for MultiCentralPro, and NOW NEW black Z21/z21 LAN mutimaus ... although Smartphones and Tablets can also be used with the Z21/z21 ... I had neither available when I got my Z21, and so waited for the LANmaus which I prefer .... the Z21 also offers the user the chance to superimpose point-graphics over a 'photo' of their layout - BUT I consider it better to load a background track drawing and superimpose on that.  The latest App version (both are available) does not allow the background image (yet) but has improved accessory drawing options - it can be both controller and glass touch panel diagram at the same time   (high res phone or tablet required)

[brossard]

I'm at 1962 ish Phil and in my basement, no garden for me.  The layout is designed to be transportable but the boards are quite large so it probably won't travel.

 

I really do want to keep things simple (ish) so no devices, no wi-fi and no computers.    Handset and pushbuttons is about my speed.

 

John

[Nigelcliffe]

The "Paco" designs are not a lot of use for an NCE system as NCE have their own cab bus which isn't Xpressnet.   

The equivalent on NCE is the MiniPanel, or the more expensive NCE cab-bus option is the DCC Concepts Alpha encoder.     

 

But, as I keep saying, from the requirements (wanting levers, keeping costs down) and stated expertise, forget using Accessory decoders, and wire the turnout motors conventionally.   
For the cross-baseboard plugs/sockets, computer serial cables with 25 way D-connectors are cheap, can be cut into two, thus providing both halves of a plug/socket with a length of colour coded wires already attached. 

[brossard]

Nigel, expertise wise, I can deal with accessory decoders.  I've done them before but that was more than 10 years ago.   The tech has obviously moved on.  I like the idea of wiring the decoder to the DCC buss which avoids cross board wiring.

 

John

[tender]

If your using a NCE system have you considered using the inbuilt 'Macro' function to set complete routes. Saves the little grey cells having to remember what accessory address moves which turnout.

[Gordon A]

Thanks chaps. No offence taken.

It appears that I am further behind DCC development than I realised.

 

Gordon A

Edited June 18, 2018 by Gordon A

[brossard]

If your using a NCE system have you considered using the inbuilt 'Macro' function to set complete routes. Saves the little grey cells having to remember what accessory address moves which turnout.

 

I haven't Tender, thanks for the tip.  My track is a branchline terminus, not exactly Euston.  There is a 3 way that might benefit from the macro thing.

 

John

Edited June 18, 2018 by brossard