New layout limited space (Signalling Help Required)

[chuffinghell]

Had a pit of a play, the space it a little tight so I think I’ll have to be careful not to cram too much in

 

Phil - you’re right that opinion ‘B’ would be cramped and might not be plausible. I’ll have to get a water tower kit and build it up and see how it would look maybe

 

Martin - you’re right about laying stuff out first. My drawings, however accurate can be misleading

 

Edwardian - I’ll definitely take your comments on board too

 

Unfortunately with the physical items in place I don’t have as much room as I appeared to have

 

Once again many thanks for the help guys 

Edited April 5, 2019 by chuffinghell

[57xx]

Apologies if I missed a reply to it, I saw someone mention not having so much tunnel. When I first saw the plan, that was my thought too, having the track curve around the front of your goods area in full view would look good IMO.

 

Personally I'd go with less is more and stick with 1 water column/ conical tank as per your post here (option a).

[chuffinghell]

1 minute ago, 57xx said:

Apologies if I missed a reply to it, I saw someone mention not having so much tunnel. When I first saw the plan, that was my thought too, having the track curve around the front of your goods area in full view would look good IMO.

 

Personally I'd go with less is more and stick with 1 water column/ conical tank as per your post here (option a).

 

No apologies necessary I appreciate all help and comments

 

I had forgotten about the previous position of the water column opinion a

 

as far as the tunnel goes it’s mainly there to give the impression that the line disappears into the country somewhere and to hide the inappropriate but necessary 2nd radius curves. If I had the room I’d have happily had 4th radius curves in show

 

I’m sure as I lay the track things will change and evolve, I’ve spent far too long on the drawing board

[RJS1977]

CC Green's book on the Cambrian Railways (Volume 1) includes photos of the pump house near Llanbadarn crossing.

 

(Sadly I've had to leave it off my model as although I've managed to model both Aberystwyth and Llanbadarn, lack of space meant the pumping house and gasworks wouldn't fit :-( )

[chuffinghell]

19 hours ago, RJS1977 said:

.............lack of space meant the pumping house and gasworks wouldn't fit

 

There are lots of features I'd like to incorporate but I've had to take a step back and try to keep things simple, a 'less is more' kinda thing

 

For the time being I'm concentrating on track laying and wiring that should keep me out of trouble for a while..................and it also gives other members a breather before I start pestering them for help on signal placement* and point rodding

 

*I'm not looking forward to the signal placement because I know it's going to be too complicated and confusing for me to comprehend

 

 

Edited April 9, 2019 by chuffinghell

[imt]

29 minutes ago, chuffinghell said:

*I'm not looking forward to the signal placement because I know it's going to be too complicated and confusing for me to comprehend

 

I doubt it!  Probably a grand total of 2 are essential

[chuffinghell]

2 minutes ago, imt said:

 

I doubt it!  Probably a grand total of 2 are essential

 

I hope that's the case as signals have always eluded me

[Martin S-C]

When I built my digital version of Highworth it had only 1 signal; a starter at the end of the platform. This was a one engine in steam set-up though. There were two ground signals IIRC, one at each end of the main run round loop. Your arrangement looks very similar. Remember that signals were primarily present for safety and to the Board of Trade that meant "safety for the paying public" so if any trackwork does not see the movement of loaded passenger carrying vehicles or movements towards loaded passenger carrying vehicles, such areas were usually not signalled.

[chuffinghell]

I'll be completely honest as always the main questions would be

 

1) how many do I need

2) what type do I need (i.e home, distant)

3) where are they positioned

4) which way round do they go 

5) should I really be allowed to have a model railway knowing as little as I do

 

 

 

Edited April 9, 2019 by chuffinghell

[Martin S-C]

38 minutes ago, chuffinghell said:

1) how many do I need

2) what type do I need (i.e home, distant)

3) where are they positioned

4) which way round do they go 

5) should I really be allowed to have a model railway knowing as little as I do

 

 

I am no expert but to me this looks like the absolute essentials:

 

1) Four.

2) Two stop signals, two ground discs.

3) One stop signal is the "starter" [1](because it controls trains starting away from the station) and must go at or near the right hand end of the platform and certainly before the loop point converges with the main running line at the level crossing. This controls trains leaving the platform to return to the junction ("up" trains). A second stop signal [2](a "home" signal because it controls trains arriving "home" into the station) is needed somewhere to the right of the turnout beyond the right hand end of the platform, near the level crossing. You're very limited on space here as the tunnel is right next to the level crossing, however this did happen on the prototype so you are on safe ground. I would suggest it is placed on the inside of the curve to give loco crews the best chance of seeing it. Alternatively it can be argued that placing it on the outside of the curve might allow easier sighting of it via a crewman leaning out of his cab to the LEFT (inside of the curve) as you look in the train's direction of travel. You have alternative options though. One is to leave it off altogether and assume it is at the non-modelled end of the tunnel. In that location it could be assumed to be positioned where it is easily seen and it would be safer to have it there than to have one right outside a tunnel exit which would give loco crews no time to react unless there was an extremely low speed restriction here, say 10 or 5 mph. Or you could make a cute and unusual arm slung from the tunnel mouth entrance as long as the tunnel arch is built high enough. This would give approaching train crews a better chance of sighting it. Your other two signals are ground discs. One should go adjacent to the turnout that controls the release of the loco from the left end of the layout [3]. The other would go in front of the turnout that allows a loco using the run round loop to return to the main running line and over the level crossing [4]. You can get brass kits to have working ground discs from companies like MSE or alternatively have non-functioning ones which you can more easily and cheaply build out of bits of scrap plastic card, rod, etc.

4) The faces of the signal arms or discs must face the direction of the movement they are controlling! So the Starter arm will face along the platform and away from the signal box, the Home signal by the tunnel mouth will face the tunnel mouth and the two ground discs will both face towards the left end of the layout.
5) Well, an ignorant reprobate like me has owned layouts so the answer is probably yes.

 

All the other turnouts control access to sidings and would be operated probably by hand and the loco crew would be waved across them by the shunter.

 

I should add:

 

6) The GWR was famous for often installing more signals than the law required and they might also therefore add a Starter signal to control movements direct from the loop to the running line which would control the departure of goods trains direct from the loop. As this is a running movement and not a shunt movement a ground disc would not be allowed to control it, so another starter could be placed at [5]. This is a GWR foible though and not essential.

 

 

Edited April 9, 2019 by Martin S-C

[imt]

On 26/02/2019 at 08:13, Harlequin said:

 

Edit: 

 

 

 

I think the above layout is where you are at now - though you have been tidying up the left hand end.

 

Health warning - I am an interested amateur, and there are plenty of professionals around who regularly tick me off for getting things wrong.  I love it and learn a lot.  Just don't take my sole word for it.  If you want the kosher answer post the plan in the Signalling Forum.

 

I think this station is a candidate for one engine in steam - so there wouldn't be any need for signals at all, just posts where they used to be.  But I am sure that's not how you want it.  SO ...

 

1 starter signal at the right hand end of the platform and one on the right hand end of the loop.  Shunting across a level crossing and into a tunnel would be unusual (but each separately are not unheard of) so there is no real need for any shunting signals.  The crossover of the (platform) head shunt and engine shed would be locked normally to the platform and the shed - so a loco cannot intrude onto the passenger line, rather like the trap just before the level crossing (though if you extended that a bit it would be a good place to leave a guards van (have a little pile of coal for the guard's stove?).  Now the crossover could be controlled by the signal box or a local ground frame, unlocked by the signal box.  This is so small I expect the signal box would control the crossing and the signalman lean out of his window with a green flag to say OK.  The signalman would have placed his home signal to danger until the shunting was over, so once that is done who needs any more signals?

[chuffinghell]

10 minutes ago, Martin S-C said:

 

 

3 minutes ago, imt said:

 

 

Thank you, I will need to read and re-read to fully understand but I think I get it

[imt]

Sorry but there is no way on earth that there would be a stop signal just beyond a level crossing.  As there is no room to sight and apply brakes the (section) signal would HAVE to be on the other side of the tunnel.

 

Frankly shunt discs here are to taste, but they really are not essential.

[Harlequin]

Tetbury: One engine in steam, GWR BLT. No signals at all after 1923 (I think). Even the "signal box" (a shed covering a ground frame) was removed.

 

If the engine driver has got the token/staff to allow him into the section, there's no danger of conflicting with any other operations.

 

Edit: The level crossing in your case might mean you need a bit more control, though.

 

Edited April 9, 2019 by Harlequin

[Joseph_Pestell]

Only in very rare circumstances is topography such as to justify a level crossing right by a tunnel (but as always prototype for everything, there is a location on the N9 road in France with level crossings each end of a short tunnel). In the case of this layout the road would surely go over the railway close to the tunnel mouth.

 

But if there really has to be a level crossing then there has to be a signal protecting it (unless one engine in steam in which case the fireman or guard would have to operate the crossing after the train had come to a halt). That signal would as imt says need to be at the other end of the tunnel.

[chuffinghell]

26 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

Only in very rare circumstances is topography such as to justify a level crossing right by a tunnel (but as always prototype for everything, there is a location on the N9 road in France with level crossings each end of a short tunnel). In the case of this layout the road would surely go over the railway close to the tunnel mouth.

 

But if there really has to be a level crossing then there has to be a signal protecting it (unless one engine in steam in which case the fireman or guard would have to operate the crossing after the train had come to a halt). That signal would as imt says need to be at the other end of the tunnel.

 

I could quite easily lose the level crossing.........its only there because I 'wanted' one, I have an image in my head that a railway needs a level crossing 

 

 

42 minutes ago, imt said:

Sorry but there is no way on earth that there would be a stop signal just beyond a level crossing.  As there is no room to sight and apply brakes the (section) signal would HAVE to be on the other side of the tunnel.

 

Frankly shunt discs here are to taste, but they really are not essential.

 

I like the idea of creating the illusion that there is a signal at the other end of the tunnel as Martin had also suggested

 

As far as shunt discs go, I could potentially use them if only to add a little more interest to the layout maybe?

 

I'll do some sketches tomorrow and with your help I'm sure I'll have it looking plausible

 

Thank you all for your help so far

 

Chris

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 9, 2019 by chuffinghell

[chuffinghell]

44 minutes ago, imt said:

...........I am an interested amateur, and there are plenty of professionals around who regularly tick me off for getting things wrong...............

I'm a complete novice and therefore you out rank me Sir......and even as an interested amateur I still respect your opinions and appreciate your help

 

44 minutes ago, imt said:

1 starter signal at the right hand end of the platform and one on the right hand end of the loop

So would that be positions 1 & 5 on Martin's post

 

Sorry for being thick 

Edited April 9, 2019 by chuffinghell

[Martin S-C]

30 minutes ago, imt said:

Sorry but there is no way on earth that there would be a stop signal just beyond a level crossing. As there is no room to sight and apply brakes the (section) signal would HAVE to be on the other side of the tunnel.

 

Frankly shunt discs here are to taste, but they really are not essential.

I did suggest that option as well.

 

The GWR used ground signals frequently in places other companies might not, they certainly had a pair at Highworth, the upper section of which was always only one engine in steam.

I did also place a heavy caveat on my post that I was no expert.

[Siberian Snooper]

I think it needs some input from the Stationmaster, of this parish.

 

 

Edited April 9, 2019 by Siberian Snooper
poor grammar

[imt]

1 hour ago, Siberian Snooper said:

I think it needs some input from the Stationmaster, of this parish.

 

Absolutely agreed.  But to ensure his atytention it would be best to post a copy in the Signalling thread - then all us amateurs acan listen and learn

3 hours ago, chuffinghell said:

I could quite easily lose the level crossing.........its only there because I 'wanted' one, I have an image in my head that a railway needs a level crossing 

 

Don't do anything of the sort - Rule 1 applies at the very least (it's your railway etc.) but just avoid putting a signal there - it ain't right at all.

3 hours ago, chuffinghell said:

So would that be positions 1 & 5 on Martin's post

 

No you are not thick - you should have heard the opprobrium thrown at me the first time i put some signals on a layout (a few years ago now!).  That's why I set out to learn, and I am still learning.  Be very aware I may get chewed off yet (it's a local sport!).

[Titanius Anglesmith]

4 hours ago, imt said:

Sorry but there is no way on earth that there would be a stop signal just beyond a level crossing.  As there is no room to sight and apply brakes the (section) signal would HAVE to be on the other side of the tunnel.

 

Until recently I would have been inclined to agree, but I've learnt that the home signal at Rolvenden on the KESR was immediately beyond the level crossing   Admittedly there wasn't a tunnel to effect the sighting (although it was on a curve), and the KESR was a light railway so different rules applied. 

[imt]

18 minutes ago, Titanius Anglesmith said:

and the KESR was a light railway so different rules applied. 

 

I'm surprised they had any signals at all?

[Pacific231G]

22 hours ago, imt said:

 

I'm surprised they had any signals at all?

British Light Railways couldn't avoid signals (though most other countries' equivalents  did so without coming to grief) but they were somewhat simplified so, unless there were sighting problems, they generally didn't need distant signals, were allowed to use "economical" FPLs that worked off the point lever and to use derailers or scotch blocks in lieu of safety points. .

In the 1928 "Requirements for Passenger Lines and Recommendations for Goods Lines of the Minister of Transport in regard to Railway Construction and Operation" Appendix IV (p22) is particularly interesting as it gives the variations and relaxations of the requirements for Light Railways. It's available as a pdf here

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=7409

 

The same document for 1950 is also available from Railways Archive and there the light railways are covered in Appendix II though I think the content is the same. I hadn't realised that light railways could be operated by telephone rather than by telegraph block nor the very simple way, not just on light railways, of operating a staff and ticket system without interlocked instruments.  

"The train-tickets (are) to be kept in the signal box or booking office in a locked box which can only be opened by a key forming part of the appropriate train staff. Removal of the train-staff must re-lock the ticket box." My only question with this is how the tickets were disposed of at the other end. Were they simply kept outside the locked box until the staff arrived allowing it to be opened and the tickets replaced or was there some way of posting them into the box while it was locked?

Looking at the main document it's also Interesting, given how often we're told by the pedants to refer to trap points for those protecting passenger lines from goods lines and sidings, that the MoT refers to both trap and catch points as safety points.  

 

There was a tunnel mouth 35 metres from a level crossing on the goods line between Plymouth Friary and Sutton Harbour where it crossed Sutton Road. According to the map there was a box controlling  the crossing and, with a steep gradient down through the tunnel, a trap siding presumably interlocked with the gates but no signals (this map shows signal posts elsewhere) I was at Plymouth College of Technology in the late 1960s and used to walk past the level crossing to get to the boathouse. The level crossing gates and tunnel were still there and ISTR the track was too though disused but I don't remember seeing a trap siding or any kind of crossing box. Since then the whole lot, including Jubilee St. and the houses above the tunnel has been demolished by the Vogons to make way for a hyperspace bypass dual carriageway but I don't know when. Most of the inset track around Sutton harbour seems to still be there as a "feature".

 

 

 

There is a well known level crossing immediately adjacent to a tunnel mouth at Cappy on the "P'tit Train de la Haute Somme" the last survivor of the 60cm military railways used on the Western Front by the French and then the British army during WW1 (though the actual tunnel was a post WW1 diversion from when it was used to transport sugar beet) Since the crossing is only protected by bells and lights it is fairly dramatic,

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkbKw8J8pdc

 

 

Edited April 10, 2019 by Pacific231G

[south_tyne]

On 09/04/2019 at 14:50, imt said:

 

I doubt it!  Probably a grand total of 2 are essential

 

As long as you arr not modelling the NER. They werr infamous for having a signal for every potential operational manoeuvre, no matter how unlikely!!

 

Chuffinghell - I wouldn't worry too much about the signalling issue. Remember it's your trainset and rule one applies. Advice and help is very useful but sometimes it is very subjective and contradictory. It is a very minor thing in the grand scheme of your railway and something that can be planned, amended and refined as the layout develops. 

 

[Julia]

 

'Scuse my ignorance, but why would there be an engine shed at a station which is run as one engine in steam? Surely the loco comes up the branch from where ever, does it's stuff, and runs off back to where it came? 

 

J