HELJAN UNVEILS ‘OO’ GAUGE 25/3 AND ‘ETHEL’ FOR 2019

[blueeighties]

4 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said:

Yes - that is exactly the point, there cannot be separate headcode and cab lights which would be four functions, needing a common and four wires making five. A point made in reply to the suggestion that there maybe separate LEDs for the cab lights.

Roy

All very confusing. Someone has said the only wires leading from the chassis to body are 3 cables. Others have said separate cab lights are fitted. This image, and I presume this is out of the box wiring, show a twin cable feed to each marker panel led, and no sign of any other additional internal cab led. 

[blueeighties]

[Roy Langridge]

8 minutes ago, blueeighties said:

All very confusing. Someone has said the only wires leading from the chassis to body are 3 cables. Others have said separate cab lights are fitted. This image, and I presume this is out of the box wiring, show a twin cable feed to each marker panel led, and no sign of any other additional internal cab led. 

 

Yep - that was the point I was making, even if there is a separate LED, it cannot be separately controlled and must be driven from the same function. 

 

Olivias have suggested that the headcode light just shines back as well to give cab lighting. However, one of the images posted does seem to show a small surface mount LED pointing towards the cab. Either way, it isn't good.

 

Edit: The top of the two images you just posted shows the small cab-facing LED.

 

Roy

Edited March 12, 2021 by Roy Langridge

[Crisis Rail]

On 10/03/2021 at 20:45, muddys-blues said:

Hello Ben, thanks for the reply, okay great to see the use of photo etched grilles, but may be an another improvement would have been to have holes behind them in the body shell, to aid the sound improvement.

 

Best regards

Craig 

Seem keen Craig. 
You returning and dropping down 3 millimetres?
 

 

Edited March 12, 2021 by Crisis Rail

[blueeighties]

9 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

Yep - that was the point I was making, even if there is a separate LED, it cannot be separately controlled and must be driven from the same function. 

 

Olivias have suggested that the headcode light just shines back as well to give cab lighting. However, one of the images posted does seem to show a small surface mount LED pointing towards the cab. Either way, it isn't good.

 

Edit: The top of the two images you just posted shows the small cab-facing LED.

 

Roy

Ah right, now I see what you mean. So we may possibly have a forward facing led for the markers, and a rear facing led towards the internal cab. I haven't inspected a production model in the flesh yet, but I wonder if this is the same issue as with the 0 gauge class 50. There are indeed separate leds fitted for the markers and internal cabs on this loco...but they have been wired to work together. As a matter of course during sound installation I altered the pcb track feed and added a function lead so as they can work correctly separately as per prototype. I have a couple of 25s due in for weathering soon and will have a look.

[adb968008]

There are only 9 terminals on the pcb...labelled cn1-9

6 functional... (plus 1 for the DC motor, 1 for DCC chip and 1 unknown opposite the DC motor).

 

in this picture cn1 is bottom right through to cn9 top left.

cn4 is the DCC socket, cn5 is the DC output to motor, cn6 is unknown in the centre of the board.

ive coloured it in the below picture...

 

 

2 are used 1 at each end for the pickups to wheels - track feed. ..cn3 and cn9.. located top left / top right Yellow highlights

2 are unused 1 at each end (the middle) is spare. cn2 and cn8.. i think these are DC. Unmarked in this picture..but under the  yellows.

 

1 at the fan end, is wired to the body for both sets of dominos/both cab lights, ... cn1 (bottom right) Green highlight

Depending on direction of travel it lights both the cab and dominos in one direction...of travel...you can see the wire splits in the roof of the body shell to go both directions.

 

1 at the opposite end operates both red tail lights.. for both cabs... the leds are on both directions, but a resistor is toning down the brightness depending on which direction of travel....the wire splits almost immediately after it plugs into cn7 (bottom left) Blue highlight..

 

just to confuse you.. both sets of LED wires exit the pcb as red and white, but they are joined to a blue and white which goes to the leds (the track feeds use red and black..).. colour management of wiring feels like a little a bit more rework of  “homework”  is required !

 

Now .. youve less than 10 seconds to cut the  white wire before it self explodes.. 

 

 

Edited March 13, 2021 by adb968008

[96701]

Quite a few pages ago, it became obvious that the leading cab was lit at the same time as the head code panel. This never happened in real life as pointed out by Olivias.  There has been so much chat about this that I am amazed that this is still being perpetuated. I think I got mine about page 41 of this thread, and did say that I would sort out the cab lighting and have only one tail light illuminated when I fitted a decoder.

 

I undid the 4 screws that retain the body, fitted black insulating tape over the cab lights and one of the tail light holes on the inside of the body, job done.

[Porcy Mane]

10 minutes ago, 96701 said:

There has been so much chat about this that I am amazed that this is still being perpetuated.

 

So amazed that you perpetuate the perpetuation!

 

P

[adb968008]

18 minutes ago, 96701 said:

Quite a few pages ago, it became obvious that the leading cab was lit at the same time as the head code panel. This never happened in real life as pointed out by Olivias.  There has been so much chat about this that I am amazed that this is still being perpetuated. I think I got mine about page 41 of this thread, and did say that I would sort out the cab lighting and have only one tail light illuminated when I fitted a decoder.

 

I undid the 4 screws that retain the body, fitted black insulating tape over the cab lights and one of the tail light holes on the inside of the body, job done.

That is indeed a very simple fix for your problem.

 

And I take heart in that you have implemented the solution which I actually proposed for the 25 (and over the decades so have many others used before me for countless others), and your now further perpetuating, but it is literally in all senses.. a sticking plaster solution.

 

However, it is not the same problem others are trying to now solve, which is control of the leds independantly.

 

 

Edited March 13, 2021 by adb968008

[Roy Langridge]

5 hours ago, 96701 said:

Quite a few pages ago, it became obvious that the leading cab was lit at the same time as the head code panel. This never happened in real life as pointed out by Olivias.  There has been so much chat about this that I am amazed that this is still being perpetuated. I think I got mine about page 41 of this thread, and did say that I would sort out the cab lighting and have only one tail light illuminated when I fitted a decoder.

 

I undid the 4 screws that retain the body, fitted black insulating tape over the cab lights and one of the tail light holes on the inside of the body, job done.

But that is a different issue and a different solution. We are discussing whether there are one or two LEDs at each end and how they are wired. Nothing at all about just blocking lights off. 
 

So nothing  being “perpetuated”, so no need for you to be amazed. 
 

May we continue out discussion now?
 

Roy

[csvt2004]

9 hours ago, adb968008 said:

There are only 9 terminals on the pcb...labelled cn1-9

6 functional... (plus 1 for the DC motor, 1 for DCC chip and 1 unknown opposite the DC motor).

 

in this picture cn1 is bottom right through to cn9 top left.

cn4 is the DCC socket, cn5 is the DC output to motor, cn6 is unknown in the centre of the board.

ive coloured it in the below picture...

 

 

2 are used 1 at each end for the pickups to wheels - track feed. ..cn3 and cn9.. located top left / top right Yellow highlights

2 are unused 1 at each end (the middle) is spare. cn2 and cn8.. i think these are DC. Unmarked in this picture..but under the  yellows.

 

1 at the fan end, is wired to the body for both sets of dominos/both cab lights, ... cn1 (bottom right) Green highlight

Depending on direction of travel it lights both the cab and dominos in one direction...of travel...you can see the wire splits in the roof of the body shell to go both directions.

 

1 at the opposite end operates both red tail lights.. for both cabs... the leds are on both directions, but a resistor is toning down the brightness depending on which direction of travel....the wire splits almost immediately after it plugs into cn7 (bottom left) Blue highlight..

 

just to confuse you.. both sets of LED wires exit the pcb as red and white, but they are joined to a blue and white which goes to the leds (the track feeds use red and black..).. colour management of wiring feels like a little a bit more rework of  “homework”  is required !

 

Now .. youve less than 10 seconds to cut the  white wire before it self explodes.. 

 

 

The cn6 seems to be the speaker connection. But no lead/plug is provided. If you want to use that connection, you need to source your own lead. What a poor set up.

 

Richard

[Zunnan]

On 12/03/2021 at 08:43, Richard Croft said:

If you do anything like this again send me an email, I think once you add the sound file to the decoder you'll be looking at about my retail price, but that comes with one of the 25x25x7 speakers so it would have probably worked out slightly cheaper. My blank decoders are £97.50 and also come with a choice of free speaker upgrade.

 

Richard

Straying a little off topic I tend to agree with you here, and for UK models normally I would source a ready to go decoder. In this case I have gone down another route, but one which I am familiar with. My DCC background includes US models where ground up PCB replacement installs are my weapon of choice with the US markets blank V5 PCB replacement and loads of prime mover variants to download from ESU. I find that accessibility to sound files is the big difference between US and UK installs. UK sound projects are by and large privately produced so suitable recompense is required, which makes the ready to plug and play option more attractive here.

[robertcwp]

18 hours ago, robertcwp said:

Can't tell right now as they are all back in their boxes but it is a blue TOPS one so perhaps it's correct. 

Yes, it is 25 093 that has the missing warning flash so it is indeed correct and not a printing error.

[45070]

So I received my 25155 today ordered via the South Devon Railway model shop, great service.

The model seems looks very nice although some of the body weathering is streaky.  I would like to see an original picture of the loco in this state.   However taking photos for my question below the weight of the weathering looks good for an engine that has been working Clay trains.
 

I have had one head code glass come loose and needs resetting,  luckily fell into my loco maintenance tray,  not the floor.

 

As usual to fit tension lock couplings to a Heljan diesel you have to trim the air and vacuum brake pipes.   The 3  link coupling looks like it can be hooked over the coupling hook and remain.   However there is a tank behind the left hand buffer (at the end of the red paper clip in the attached pic).   This fouls the coupling for any coupling using the NEM pocket.   Has anyone worked out how to remove this to give the coupling chance to move with the bogie?  
 

Jeff

[45070]

Duplicate post

Edited March 13, 2021 by 45070
Posted twice

[96701]

I must admit that I haven't fitted a coupling to my Type 2 yet. I'm testing my new track with a Hatton's Class 66 which seems to drop off the track at the drop of a hat. I'll have a go tomorrow with fitting a coupling to the Type 2 and see how we get on towing some equally tricky rolling stock..

[Zunnan]

Right then! A few things done and a few things found out.

 

I'm confident there are two LEDs in each headcode, as others are pointing out. One outwards for the headcode and the other inwards for the cab. I painted out the inward facing LEDs and the headcode still works. That headcode glazing LOVES to go for the floor, both fell out when I turned the model over in a cradle to start opening up.

 

When chipped my Rat also runs in 'reverse'.

 

The body mounting screws at the fuel tank end can be a bit of a pain to access as the bogie at that end on mine doesn't swing enough to access it. The bogie detail fouls the tank before it has pivoted far enough.

 

Glow in the dark tail lights suitably dealt with! I'm certain someone will say its the wrong side, but Ah Ha! The other end is the other side.

 

 

Toning down was done with LMS crimson paint on the LED itself and the inside of the lens. Painting just one or the other left it still like a laser dot, and the other light was killed using electrical tape to the inside of the body.

 

I wouldn't mind having a dig at the headcode panel to give it a similar 'wind yer neck in', but this one at both ends is well and truly glued in and isn't going to give way without something breaking. I think I may just print some marker dots to thicken up the material there in order to dull them. I was hoping to get a better look at the mini PCB mounted there to have a look at separating the cab light from the headcode and see about an additional feed to each end from the spare aux on the decoder. It should be doable though, I'm fairly certain there is two LEDs in each headcode box...its just getting them out.

 

After a few phone calls, then resigning myself to somewhat defeat, and using a Legomanbiffo decoder instead the DIY sound install stands at £119 if using the factory speaker and enclosure plus 25x25x7 speaker for what I'd deem the best minimalist budget sound quality...Since increased to two series connected 25x25x7s and an end cost of £126. The factory provided sugarcube and enclosure kit is...well, it didn't last beyond startup and blowing the horns once. Its naff on its own! And yes, you can really tell the difference between the two twin speaker setups. Is it worth the extra £7? I'd say so...the missus downstairs would disagree! Total cost for sound therefore comes in at £279 on a beefy twin speaker setup or £272 for a slightly less obnoxious one. Obviously DIY installs isn't for everyone, but here I am within £16 of the SLW class 25 with RTR sound.

 

I do have a cheaper option and sticking with V5...but that involves an ESU 58821, and as that decoder isn't 'officially' available in the UK I consider it cheating. But it would knock at least £20 off the install price at the cost of having to basically rewire the entire model to a US spec PCB.

 

For the record I wasn't too keen on the SWD file and dismissed it as it uses the wrong horns and that would bug me no end, but it'd be great for a 25/1. There are other good files out there, but Biff and SWD stand out in particular. For £110 plus postage directly from Charlie, a blank and downloading route works out at almost exactly the same cost for a V5 save a few pence and postage, plus a wait until this current lockdown is over to get the decoder blown. Yes, I could possibly source a blank V5 a tiny bit cheaper, but barely within the price of postage. I'm impatient, what can I say?! The blank shall be saved for another project.

 

So...Is a £279 Heljan class 25 worth it? For now it is, and I did have fun building it a few times over in different configurations; and it does sound awesome! Ask me in 6-7 months though and I think my mind will be changed somewhat.

[96701]

4 hours ago, 45070 said:

So I received my 25155 today ordered via the South Devon Railway model shop, great service.

The model seems looks very nice although some of the body weathering is streaky.  I would like to see an original picture of the loco in this state.   However taking photos for my question below the weight of the weathering looks good for an engine that has been working Clay trains.
 

I have had one head code glass come loose and needs resetting,  luckily fell into my loco maintenance tray,  not the floor.

 

As usual to fit tension lock couplings to a Heljan diesel you have to trim the air and vacuum brake pipes.   The 3  link coupling looks like it can be hooked over the coupling hook and remain.   However there is a tank behind the left hand buffer (at the end of the red paper clip in the attached pic).   This fouls the coupling for any coupling using the NEM pocket.   Has anyone worked out how to remove this to give the coupling chance to move with the bogie?  
 

Jeff

Nope, has me beat so far. If it is screwed  in, the screws can only be under the cab which has the tail light leds on it, so I'm loath to try to remove it. If the tank prevents the loco coupling from running properly, I'll take the buffer beam off again and whip the tank off with my Dremel.

[Roy Langridge]

17 hours ago, robertcwp said:

Yes, it is 25 093 that has the missing warning flash so it is indeed correct and not a printing error.

The missing warning flash seems a slightly odd thing to replicate on a pristine loco. I could understand doing it on a loco that was modelled as long out of works, but that is not the case here.

 

Roy

[45070]

8 hours ago, 96701 said:

Nope, has me beat so far. If it is screwed  in, the screws can only be under the cab which has the tail light leds on it, so I'm loath to try to remove it. If the tank prevents the loco coupling from running properly, I'll take the buffer beam off again and whip the tank off with my Dremel.

Thanks,  glad it’s not just me

 

I saw the tiny screws for the buffer beam and didn’t think they would  lead to removal this tank.  Should you really need to take a Dremel to a model that’s designed to run with couplings?  Was it designed to run light engine?
 

Jeff

[The Ghost of IKB]

2 hours ago, 45070 said:

Thanks,  glad it’s not just me

 

I saw the tiny screws for the buffer beam and didn’t think they would  lead to removal this tank.  Should you really need to take a Dremel to a model that’s designed to run with couplings?  Was it designed to run light engine?
 

Jeff

Should you have to take a dremel to a new model? No of course not.  Surely other people are running  these round curves using tension locks.? There must be a way to do this without damaging the model?

[Kirby Uncoupler]

I wonder, can this mystery vertical cylinder (air-brake or horns?) behind the buffer-beam be removed, then be re-attached to the NEM coupling shank, so it's still there, but rotates with the coupling and bogie?     BK

[Jenny Emily]

I pulled the little tank out with a pair of needle nose pliers. It looks like it is just glued in place. 

[Zunnan]

Running on 3rd radius curves and through setrack pointwork, I've not had an issue with the tank being left in place. Yes, its gets in the way a little but not enough to be a problem, the screw link coupler is the biggest obstacle. I have had to trim the back of the coupler down so it doesn't stick on the curved section of crossbar behind the coupler pocket as well. I removed the low hanging portion of the pipework immediately on either side of the screw link and left the rest of the detail in place. Seems fine so far.

[robertcwp]

I gave my six their one-hour running in session yesterday and am now commissioning them for service. Here is D7647 on its first loaded test run. It had no problem with an 8' long freight:

 

https://youtu.be/eljTswyuhQk