Hornby dublo

[Golden Fleece 30]

On the subject of steam travel I did plenty but what stands out are 1) around 1962 my father had to go to London and took me, we travelled behind York's own A1 Flambouyant which I made in N, 00 and 0 gauge. 2) we came back on the Tees Tyne Pullman hauled by A4 Miles Beevor, again done in N, 00 and 0 gauge. I did travel behind another A4 from the old Leeds Central to Wakefield but only heard its whistle and never got to see the name.

 

I will do Miles Beevor in TT but doubt another A1.

 

Garry

[MikeCW]

At our informal British model railway group meeting last weekend we got to discussing the quality of Hornby Dublo locomotives and rolling stock, particularly the locomotives from the late 50s and the Super Detail coaches of the early 60s. I've always thought that the coaches weren't bettered until very recently (despite being under scale length). I was prompted to plonk a "Castle" and some Mark 1 coaches down on my work-in-progress, 16.5mm, moderately finescale, layout, to see how they shaped up. My word, they looked as if they had just rolled in to Chester from Shrewsbury on a Birkenhead express.  I was so impressed that I took a couple of photos which I decided to post here.  Nothing unusual or clever; just out-of-the-box models between 50 and 60 years old.

 

Mike

[sagaguy]

Very nice Mike,they certainly don`t look out of place.The only crticism i can make about the SD coaches is that Meccano never fitted pin point axles.

 

 

                             Ray.

[Il Grifone]

Very nice Mike,they certainly don`t look out of place.The only crticism i can make about the SD coaches is that Meccano never fitted pin point axles.

 

 

                             Ray.

 

Rather 'state of the art' at the time, though they had been around for a long time and Continental manufacturers were fitting them. Conversely, Dublo locomotives were quite able to handle a reasonable train of them. The short length was to not look out of place on the system's vicious curves, but they would have been better to scale. I used to run Kitmasters (they were rather cheaper (6/6 against 15/- or thereabouts) and the windows were almost as good.

[sagaguy]

What i was missing from a train of Dublo SD SR coaches was a full brake in SR green.A scan of a maroon coach,a few hours in Photoshop & here`s the result..A real nevawassa.

 

 

 

                               

 

 

                               

 

 

And the artwork with a crimson & cream version.

 

 

                             

 

 

                            

 

 

                                                  Ray.

 

 

[MikeCW]

Very nice Mike,they certainly don`t look out of place.The only crticism i can make about the SD coaches is that Meccano never fitted pin point axles.

 

 

                             Ray.

Although I have no intention of running them on my "scale" layout, I was surprised how well they fitted in when I set them up for the "photo shoot", and how a rake of seven coaches looked like a sensible length train. Though they're under scale length, the fact that almost all our layouts are too short, due to the inevitable space constraints, means that the eye doesn't notice it, as they are in proportion to their surroundings - unless a scale length coach is put in the consist of course.

 

You're right about bearings.  A few of my SD coaches are poor runners, due to worn axles in worn plastic bogie sideframes, as well as the temperamental behaviour of the Dublo bogies with that compensation arrangement involving independently pivoting sideframes. I seem to recall that  Garry addresses this by replacing the Dublo bogies in their entirety with Bachmann(?) replacements.  I don't want to go that far if I can avoid it, but would like to fit metal wheelsets, with pinpoints running in brass bearings, in the original bogies.  Have you, or anyone else out there who happens to pick up on this thread, done this successfully - preferably without having to drill out the bogie retaining rivet?

 

Mike

[MikeCW]

Rather 'state of the art' at the time, though they had been around for a long time and Continental manufacturers were fitting them. Conversely, Dublo locomotives were quite able to handle a reasonable train of them. The short length was to not look out of place on the system's vicious curves, but they would have been better to scale. I used to run Kitmasters (they were rather cheaper (6/6 against 15/- or thereabouts) and the windows were almost as good.

Ah, Kitmaster coaches!  They were a very fine model for the time, very good value for money as you say, and even now look good if well-built and painted. 50 years ago I had half a dozen, moulded in green plastic if I recall correctly.  I built a couple more or less successfully but, though I avoided the dreaded plastic cement smears on the windows, neatly painting the ventilators to match the body sides defeated me. I gave the others away and, inevitably, wish I had them now.

 

Mike

Edited October 31, 2018 by MikeCW

[Il Grifone]

I haven't done any coaches, but have fitted a WELTROL with sucess. It required special short axles to fit top hat bearings, but they are easily turned in an electric drill.

 

I did replace the plastic wheels with Dublo metal ones in a full brake which solved their reluctance to turn, They are quite variable, my Castle hauled express could be seven chocolate and cream coaches, but only five maroon ones.

 

The compensated coaches work well as long as the bogie frames are free to rotate. This isn't always the case due to over enthusiastic tightening of the rivet in the factory. The frames are fixed to U shaped piece of metal which can be easily flexed sufficiently to release the wheels. Pin point bearings and wheels can then be fitted, but will require shortened axles. Hornby disc wheels are the right diameter (12.6mm), but have reached ridiculous prices. The later bogies have the usual tinplate insert which can be removed by lifting the lug on the top of the bogie. Removal and refitting can usual be done twice before the metal fatigues and breaks. A new tab can be soldered on of course.

[MikeCW]

I haven't done any coaches, but have fitted a WELTROL with sucess. It required special short axles to fit top hat bearings, but they are easily turned in an electric drill.

 

I did replace the plastic wheels with Dublo metal ones in a full brake which solved their reluctance to turn, They are quite variable, my Castle hauled express could be seven chocolate and cream coaches, but only five maroon ones.

 

The compensated coaches work well as long as the bogie frames are free to rotate. This isn't always the case due to over enthusiastic tightening of the rivet in the factory. The frames are fixed to U shaped piece of metal which can be easily flexed sufficiently to release the wheels. Pin point bearings and wheels can then be fitted, but will require shortened axles. Hornby disc wheels are the right diameter (12.6mm), but have reached ridiculous prices. The later bogies have the usual tinplate insert which can be removed by lifting the lug on the top of the bogie. Removal and refitting can usual be done twice before the metal fatigues and breaks. A new tab can be soldered on of course.

Thank you for the helpful advice.  I did a quick scan of Hattons website and confess I was surprised that Hornby wheelsets retail for about £1.20 per axle! I expect to pay a solid price for scale wheels from the cottage industry specialists, but  factory bulk-production Hornby items? And if a pair of Bachmann Mk 1 bogies, with wheels, retail for under £7.00, then I can see the attraction of a straight bogie swap if running is a priority over retaining originality.

[sagaguy]

I did look ino this problem & i bought a couple of lengths of 2mm silver steel to make the axles to fit modern Hornby coach wheels in brass bearings.This has reminded me to do something about it.

 

 

                                      Ray.

[Golden Fleece 30]

Although I have no intention of running them on my "scale" layout, I was surprised how well they fitted in when I set them up for the "photo shoot", and how a rake of seven coaches looked like a sensible length train. Though they're under scale length, the fact that almost all our layouts are too short, due to the inevitable space constraints, means that the eye doesn't notice it, as they are in proportion to their surroundings - unless a scale length coach is put in the consist of course.

 

You're right about bearings.  A few of my SD coaches are poor runners, due to worn axles in worn plastic bogie sideframes, as well as the temperamental behaviour of the Dublo bogies with that compensation arrangement involving independently pivoting sideframes. I seem to recall that  Garry addresses this by replacing the Dublo bogies in their entirety with Bachmann(?) replacements.  I don't want to go that far if I can avoid it, but would like to fit metal wheelsets, with pinpoints running in brass bearings, in the original bogies.  Have you, or anyone else out there who happens to pick up on this thread, done this successfully - preferably without having to drill out the bogie retaining rivet?

 

Mike

Hi Mike,

 

A lovely looking set up in the photo.

 

Yes I did fit Bachmann bogies to a few Dublo coaches, one maroon set and one WR set, and most of my Exleys.  I have fitted some pin points to wagons but not very easy and hit and miss running wise. A long time ago there were some pin pointed sets available that fitted into bearings just pushed into the compensated bogies, unfortunately the wheels were too fine for standard Peco track at the time and more so for Dublo.

 

The Kitmasters were good and I was lucky to pick a few TT ones up in the last year but as you say a pain to paint the ventilators.

 

Garry 

[Golden Fleece 30]

Hello Garry

On your recommendation I went to the Modelmaster website and ordered a couple of Dublo/Wrenn style nameplates - City of Leeds and City of Bradford. It wasn't intentional but surely there must have been something in my genes which steered me to the two Yorkshire representatives of the class?

 

As you say, whether a paint finish "works" or not depends on the eye of the beholder. And as I said in my post, the effect of the orange/black/orange lining on the red background is "unusual" - for that read "strange". However, in David Jenkinson's "Power of the Duchesses" there is a two page spread of photos of members of the class in different colour schemes, including one of 6247 in this combination.  Because the orange/black/orange lining is much smaller in scale on the real thing, and the black dominates the orange more than on Dennis Williams' transfers, the overall effect is much more restrained and more acceptable. But heck, in the great journey of life, the colour we paint a model train is hardly one of our critical choices - though reading some of the posts on other topics on RMweb, there may be zealots who would disagree!

 

I've never owned a model locomotive of any class in BR blue but will likely give it a go - especially if I pick up another "City". There are a couple of rare colour photos in the Jenkinson book of 6231 and 6241 in this livery which have stirred my interest.  

 

I meant to add in the post about the two Cities that Dennis Williams' transfers went on beautifully, with none of the problems I encountered with the green 2-6-4T.  I must have been holding my mouth in the right position this time round - as well as more carefully measuring out the meths/water brew.

 

Thanks again for the steer to Modelmaster.

 

Mike

Hi Mike,

 

Regarding the colours I think it is how we all perceive what we see, certain shapes suit a certain colour.  To me a Duchess profile suits the BR Blue, as does the Peppercorn A1.  A4's looks okay in the blue but to me BR green suits it the best although I cannot think what it would look like in BR green with valances still on.  The SR's unrebuilt M/N looks fine in both blue and green which are suited to it but the rebuilt looks awful (only a preserved one in this colour).  I cannot imagine a Castle, Jubilee or Scot in anything other than BR green (I know I have a blue Castle though).  The light green and MT lined black did not suit them to my eyes.  I will say I was not keen on the light blue used on a handful of locos and the purple shade with MT lining suited an A4 better than a Duchess.

 

I am not an LNER man but the apple green looked well on an A3 but poor on an A4, A1, A2.

 

No doubt others will all have their own ideas on which colour suits a loco best.

 

Garry

[Golden Fleece 30]

Hi Mike,

 

Funny we were talking about colours as this painting was in a shop in Blackpool today.  We passed it on the way back to the station and I was tempted but carrying it would have been an issue with cases, a little one and 3 trains to catch. I would love this in TT.

 

Garry

Edited October 31, 2018 by Golden Fleece 30

[sagaguy]

As a spinoff from the overlays i produced for the HD full brake,Having a couple of spare Trix Mk1 coaches,i resized some for the Trix version,anyway,here`s the result.

 

 

 

                                          

 

 

                                          

 

 

 

                                          

 

 

                             Ray.

 

 

                       

[MikeCW]

Hi Mike,

 

Funny we were talking about colours as this painting was in a shop in Blackpool today.  We passed it on the way back to the station and I was tempted but carrying it would have been an issue with cases, a little one and 3 trains to catch. I would love this in TT.

 

Garry

Hello Garry

I would have been very tempted, especially as, with the red and green Dublo  "Cities" nearly ready for the final spray coat of protective satin varnish (just the red buffer beams to repaint and Modelmaster nameplates somewhere in the air between the UK and NZ), I've started looking for another one to re-finish as "City of Glasgow" in blue which, according to Jenkinson in "Power of the Duchesses", (OPC 1979), was in blue from 1949 to 1953. Dennis Williams has the name and number set.

 

I can't make out the number of the engine in the painting.  I may be mistaken of course but it looks as if it's running through the Lune Gorge, perhaps starting the climb to Shap (if its a Northbound Down train of course). Not only the locomotive has gone but of course the gorge is changed out of all recognition with the M6 now slicing through.

 

How did your little one like the Illuminations?  Those are the sort of things which make for magical childhood memories.

 

Mike

[Golden Fleece 30]

Hello Garry

I would have been very tempted, especially as, with the red and green Dublo  "Cities" nearly ready for the final spray coat of protective satin varnish (just the red buffer beams to repaint and Modelmaster nameplates somewhere in the air between the UK and NZ), I've started looking for another one to re-finish as "City of Glasgow" in blue which, according to Jenkinson in "Power of the Duchesses", (OPC 1979), was in blue from 1949 to 1953. Dennis Williams has the name and number set.

 

I can't make out the number of the engine in the painting.  I may be mistaken of course but it looks as if it's running through the Lune Gorge, perhaps starting the climb to Shap (if its a Northbound Down train of course). Not only the locomotive has gone but of course the gorge is changed out of all recognition with the M6 now slicing through.

 

How did your little one like the Illuminations?  Those are the sort of things which make for magical childhood memories.

 

Mike

Hi Mike,

 

I would also hazard the same guess as the Lune Gorge. The painting did have a clear number but it has not focused on my phone, maybe through glass at an angle to avoid some reflections did not help.  Look forward to your next master piece, a Blue Duchess (City I know but to me they are all Duchess's).

 

Our little one liked the lights but was more interested in the Pleasure Beach.  Last year was her first time on the Pleasure beach as we were worried how she would fair on them but loved it and loved it even more this year.  We did see the illuminated tram as a Wild West loco and she knew it was a steam engine, I have brought her up the correct way :-) :-) :-).  She has certainly had a lot of memories in the 4 years she has been with us, and will hopefully continue.

 

Garry

[sagaguy]

I can`t find that painting by Barry Price but this is similar for sale on ebay.

 

 

                      

 

 

 

                           Ray.

[brianusa]

In all my various layouts and ever since my first Dublo, I have never tried to improve on what I had. I was quite content to have a railway layout track and accessories as Hornby intended, three rail, short coaches and all. I did graduate to two rail and more scale models over the years but nice as they were, I was happier with the older stuff where you didn't have to deal with return loop complications, etc. So that's why I ended up with O tinplate, OO was getting tedious for my eyesight so the bigger scale certainly helped as well.

 

Brian.

[MikeCW]

I can`t find that painting by Barry Price but this is similar for sale on ebay.

 

 

                       royal scot painting.jpg

 

 

 

                           Ray.

Nice one Ray.  Sir William A Stanier himself, picking up water from the troughs at Bushey ?  I don't know whether it's an up or down train but either way the fireman would be watching the water consumption carefully as well as toiling to shift 9 or more tons of coal into that wide firebox if the train's non-stop between Euston and Carlisle, especially if there are 14 or 15 coaches behind, with at least one 12 wheel dining car.  6256 is much prettier in the painting than my version (Post 255) in grimy post-war LMS black.

Edited November 3, 2018 by MikeCW

[Golden Fleece 30]

Hi Mike, on enlarging the photo I took the number can be clearly seen which is 46226 which ever loco that is.

 

Garry

[kevinlms]

Hi Mike, on enlarging the photo I took the number can be clearly seen which is 46226 which ever loco that is.

 

Garry

That is 'Duchess of York' then. 

 

Edit to correct.

 

Well I stuffed that up. I looked it up ans still got it wrong!!!!

 

Thanks Garry, it is indeed 'Duchess of Norfolk'.

Edited November 4, 2018 by kevinlms

[MikeCW]

Hi Mike, on enlarging the photo I took the number can be clearly seen which is 46226 which ever loco that is.

 

Garry

Very impressive Garry, just like those TV crime shows where they sharpen up CCTV footage to identify the villain!  According to the Jenkinson book on the Duchesses, 46226 was Duchess of Norfolk, one of the second batch of streamliners, finished in red when new (the first five were blue).  Interestingly (at least for the anoraks among us!) Jenkinson says that the de-streamlined 6226 was painted BR blue until September 1956 when she was then painted green.  But it wasn't until November 1956* that she was given a fully cylindrical smokebox.  If he is correct, then she should have the "bevelled" top to the smokebox in the picture. But, in the great scheme of things, it's still a very nice picture.

 

This reminds me that, when I do a blue Dublo Duchess/Coronation, I'm likely to be faced with the decision whether to modify the smokebox to the bevelled-top variety characteristic of the former streamliners with the so-called utility front footplate (the City of london body) or I could chicken out and use a "Montrose" body of course. Decisions!

 

*Edit.   I'm wrong about the smokebox of 46226.  Put it down to elderly eyesight squinting over the microscopic print in the table at the back of the Jenkinson book, in the fashionably subdued light over the dining room table.  In the bright sunlight of a spring Sunday morning I can see clearly now that she had her smokebox returned to full cylindrical shape in November 1955 not 1956.  She ran as accurately depicted in the painting for 10 months.  Mea Culpa!

 

Mike

Edited November 3, 2018 by MikeCW

[Golden Fleece 30]

That is 'Duchess of York' then. If it still existed, it would probably be known as 'Fergie', not the United one!

Actually Kevin it is Duchess of Norfolk not York. There was never a Duchess or City of York in this class.

 

Garry

[Golden Fleece 30]

Very impressive Garry, just like those TV crime shows where they sharpen up CCTV footage to identify the villain! According to the Jenkinson book on the Duchesses, 46226 was Duchess of Norfolk, one of the second batch of streamliners, finished in red when new (the first five were blue). Interestingly (at least for the anoraks among us!) Jenkinson says that the de-streamlined 6226 was painted BR blue until September 1956 when she was then painted green. But it wasn't until November 1956 that she was given a fully cylindrical smokebox. If he is correct, then she should have the "bevelled" top to the smokebox in the picture. But, in the great scheme of things, it's still a very nice picture.

 

This reminds me that, when I do a blue Dublo Duchess/Coronation, I'm likely to be faced with the decision whether to modify the smokebox to the bevelled-top variety characteristic of the former streamliners with the so-called utility front footplate (the City of london body) or I could chicken out and use a "Montrose" body of course. Decisions!

 

Mike

I do have Queen Elizabeth somewhere Mike, unless I have sold it, which has a bevelled smokebox but not done by myself. It was bought that way as something different.

 

I cannot remember if there is enough casting to file it down or if some filler was used inside though.

 

Garry

[Golden Fleece 30]

Not really that impressive Mike, just enlarged the photo on my phone and took a screenshot :-)

 

Garry