Great Model Railway Challenge - Channel 5

[colin smith]

Gaugemaster supplied a 4-track DC controller should you need one and were a sponsor (but only a limited part of their offering was available) and the track and static grass had to come from Peco for which there was adequate budget, and I don't think there was any shortage of track or track components.

 

Teams were expected to supply their own stock and were not expected to buy it from the Hornby and Bachmann budgets.

 

So a lot more variety would have been possible. As mentioned above there was originally a plan that all the layouts would be connected, hence common scale and gauge but this eventually got shelved. Unfortunately, the teams had already started planning at that point and the scale gauge was fixed. Should they do a second series they will hopefully allow for more variety.

[RJS1977]

I think this was a difficult topic. Given that what was available from the sponsors was UK outline rolling stock (and contestants probably wouldn't have their own non-UK stock to run), then the options seem to either be a fantasy layout or one set in the UK.

 

And presumably all three layouts were proposed to the TV company and approved beforehand.

 

One thought I had after watching the programme - how about a layout divided into three sections (UK, USA, Australia), with 'Flying Scotsman' running through all of them?

 

Would have been especially appropriate given McAlpine's ownership of 4472 included her return from the USA, and the Australia tour (a headboard from the Australia tour was in the 'crew room' at Fawley the first time I visited, and may well still be there), and would have been an appropriate tribute to him.

[Huw Griffiths]

I thought I would shed some light on why all the layouts are OO.

 

It was originally envisaged by the production company that the heat layouts would join up in the final to one long layout hence they needed to be the same gauge. It became obvious to them that this would require a lot of ripping up of work and no one had the heart to do that. That means the requirement for them all to be the same scale wasn’t needed but the teams had already started planning by then so it was too late to change.

 

Interesting points - however, I wonder what changes could reasonably be made to the rules of any future series, to accommodate something like this.

 

• In theory, you could require "entry" and "exit" tracks at fixed positions, heights and orientations - possible, but how far would this stifle teams' creativity?

   

• Are the baseboard kits themselves a barrier to this sort of thing? There have been comments about their size and mass (thick MDF has never been a lightweight material). Might there be something to be said for using different size / shape boards (perhaps with an option to configure them differently? More to the point, would lightweight materials (eg "Foamex" / "Palight") be viable - I'm certainly considering them for any layouts I might build for myself.

   

• One really obvious change might concern the power supplies / controls for any layouts in future challenges. Might there be something to be said for standardising on one design / suite of controller - whether DC or (please, no) DCC - with teams lent samples (with documentation) beforehand, so they can familiarise themselves with its "quirks"?

   

• Along with comments about power / control, there's also the issue of the trains themselves - might there be something to be said for sponsoring companies supplying these to the teams? At least, that way, the current draw and other characteristics would be more predictable. OK - I know that RTR stuff tends to be designed / manufactured to comply with NMRA standards and recommended practices (such as S-9, which I believe covers all that really exciting electrical stuff) - but ... .

   

  Of course, some people might still turn up with their own homebrew models of "D-Trains" or the like - but these would probably be modern models, built to modern standards. (Incidentally, I might have to see if I can do anything with a bunch of drawings, courtesy of <<whatdotheyknow.com>> - but don't hold your breath.)

   

Personal opinions aside, I'm sure that a number of changes have already been considered for future series - and I suspect that loads of further ideas will be suggested over the coming months. Any decisions regarding these are not mine to take.

 

 

Gaugemaster supplied a 4-track DC controller should you need one and were a sponsor (but only a limited part of their offering was available) and the track and static grass had to come from Peco for which there was adequate budget, and I don't think there was any shortage of track or track components.

 

Teams were expected to supply their own stock and were not expected to buy it from the Hornby and Bachmann budgets.

 

I must admit that this was one thing that struck me as strange about this challenge. I would have expected a number of manufacturers to use this as a chance to showcase a lot of their RTR models - otherwise, I don't see much point in ringfencing significant chunks of the teams' budgets for use only with these companies. However, the prices quoted to the teams for locos etc did not seem to bear much resemblance to those charged by certain well-known boxshifters ... .

 

 

I think this was a difficult topic. Given that what was available from the sponsors was UK outline rolling stock (and contestants probably wouldn't have their own non-UK stock to run), then the options seem to either be a fantasy layout or one set in the UK.

 

And presumably all three layouts were proposed to the TV company and approved beforehand.

 

I'm certain that all the layouts built would have been pre-approved.

 

As for non-UK motive power and stock, I suspect the real position might have been slightly more nuanced. A number of the people taking part would, indeed, have had significant amounts of UK outline OO - but I'm not sure this would have been everyone.

 

Some people might have stuff that started out as OO - but which had since been converted to EM, P4 or other gauges, none of which would be suitable for use in this series.

 

Other people might normally model in completely different scales - such as N or O. Some of these people might have a small number of OO items - again, no guarantees as to its suitability.

 

Meanwhile, even among people who normally model in OO, some people might have a small number of HO items - most likely US or "European mainland" outline - though, again, you can't be certain that they'd be able to assemble a large number of coherent trains from any one country. (Some might - but, if this stuff is any good, they might not want to risk damaging or losing their models.)

 

In case this doesn't appear to make much sense, I seem to recall reading about one well known person, who makes a point of buying at least one model railway item from each country he visits.

 

Some people who are never likely to be well known also have slightly "international" collections of model railway items - not all of them particularly good. Some people might have unusual interests, not properly catered for in UK outline (like trams, for instance) - or they might just happen to like the appearance of certain prototypes (such as Köf II shunters, or DB "Donald Duck" EMUs). Some of these people might even have considered building "foreign outline" layouts, but never actually got round to it.

 

 

So a lot more variety would have been possible. As mentioned above there was originally a plan that all the layouts would be connected, hence common scale and gauge but this eventually got shelved. Unfortunately, the teams had already started planning at that point and the scale gauge was fixed. Should they do a second series they will hopefully allow for more variety.

 

Well, I guess it's either that or introduce design constraints on entries in any future series, which effectively turn them into sections of a modular layout (think N-Trak etc).

 

Although stuff like this might sound attractive to some people, it might also stifle the teams' creativity.

 

However, I wouldn't be surprised if thoughts along these lines might have been one of the factors behind the initial requirement for all teams' layouts to have all their boards arranged in the same way (instead of end-to-end, which I suspect some people might have preferred).

 

 

It will be interesting to see what happens with any future series - in the meantime, I'm looking forward to seeing the remainder of the current series.

 

 

Regards,

 

Huw.

[Pacific231G]

Not necessarily. There are thousands of great prototypes that you never see modelled. There are thousands more models of GWR branch termini than there were actual GWR branch termini, but when was the last time you saw anything modelled from South America, or North Africa, or Scandinavia, or Russia? Railways don't end at Dover.

My answer to your question would, apart from Russia, be fairly frequently. There are societies in Britain based around particular overseas railways including among others Scandinavia, France, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Italy and Iberia as well as the British chapter of the NMRA  all of which have members who regularly exhibit layouts. Modelling of 'other' prototypes also includes many indivudual modellers outside the specialist socieities.  

 

I know someone, an excellent modeller,  who is building a fairly large home layout set in South America. in recent years from other modellers I've seen several narrow gauge models with North African themes and a friend of mine regualrly helps on a P87 layout set in Denmark.  There are quite a few layouts based on the railways of Soviet era eastern Europe, particularly the DDR and Czechoslovakia, but I've yet to see one based on Russia itself. 

 

I think there's probably more modelling as a proportion of the total based on "other" railways in Britain than in any other country I can think of though I agree with you that there are curious gaps. For example, I've seen very little modelling of India's broad gauge railways though they seem to be a fascinating transposition of British railway practice into a very different culture. I'm also rather surprised at the apparent lack of interest shown by French modellers in the standard gauge railways of the Mahgreb even though most of the locomotives and rolling stock have been almost identical, save in livery, to French equipment readily available as models. 

Edited October 24, 2018 by Pacific231G

[Mike Storey]

The enjoyment is in the doing and it requires a far greater range of skills than painting. For me, the modelling IS the playing. Operation is rather dull.

 

I guess you meant to write "Your enjoyment is in the doing......"? Many of us find both construction and operation equally satisfying, if operational interest has been included in the design.

[colin smith]

I guess you meant to write "Your enjoyment is in the doing......"? Many of us find both construction and operation equally satisfying, if operational interest has been included in the design.

 

I always write from my point of view.

[Not Jeremy]

I agree it's beautiful. But is the enjoyment when it is finished any different from that of a painting in oils or acrylics? And a painting takes up less space.

 

What I like about model railways is that you can play with them - they move. Trains can go from place to place.

 

...R

Not related to the o/p, but yes it is significantly different to a painting.

 

Steve added the extra dimensions of sound and also smell(!) and in addition it makes a great setting in which to photograph different items of rolling stock.

 

So not an operating layout by any means but much much more than a painting.

[Coryton]

One thought I had after watching the programme - how about a layout divided into three sections (UK, USA, Australia), with 'Flying Scotsman' running through all of them?

 

I already suggested that!

 

Though I'm not sure what you'd do for other rolling stock, or how much it would mean to a mainstream audience.

 

Everyone knows the Flying Scotsman - but how many people know that it went on holiday?

 

(And to get it really right, it would have to acquire a cow-catcher and bell before popping out into the US. Maybe two locomotives? The animation could be them being lifted onto and off a ship....)

[TEAMYAKIMA]

Are there any viewing figures for episode 2 yet?

 

[hayfield]

I so much want to like the program and continue to watch, but my impression is the first episode still has been the best, one problem being is I watch it in the early hours after work and the second episode was better when I viewed it a second time. I accept it has to be in a format which attracts viewers (not railway modellers) it just seems to be missing something to lift it to a higher level, might either be the two non model railway presenters or the editing. 

 

I will continue watching (perhaps when I am not half asleep) as I hope it develops a bit more

[Hobby]

I generally find most Continental European layouts served up at UK exhibitions rather too "chocolate box" for my taste.

 

 

Having been modelling the more obscure parts of Central Europe for decades now and having travelled widely in that part of the world looking for obscure narrow gauge I'd just like to make a comment about that... Many parts of Switzerland, Austria and Germany are just that, "chocolate box". The roads are clean, the houses neat and the grass always nice and short. Maybe close up you can see some rough detail but from normal viewing distances they do look "perfect", especially in Switzerland. So those layouts are actually realistic... One reason I tend to model Czech, Slovak and Hungarian, with some Austrian is that you actually get to model some detail rather than just assemble the building kit as is in clean, unpainted, form!

Edited October 23, 2018 by Hobby

[Chris M]

It's railway modelling. I'm not that interested in operation.

I thought the whole point of a model railway was that trains actual run. And that is recognised by the TV programme.

[Chris M]

Having been modelling the more obscure parts of Central Europe for decades now and having travelled widely in that part of the world looking for obscure narrow gauge I'd just like to make a comment about that... Many parts of Switzerland, Austria and Germany are just that, "chocolate box". The roads are clean, the houses neat and the grass always nice and short. Maybe close up you can see some rough detail but from normal viewing distances they do look "perfect", especially in Switzerland. So those layouts are actually realistic... One reason I tend to model Czech, Slovak and Hungarian, with some Austrian is that you actually get to model some detail rather than just assemble the building kit as is in clean, unpainted, form!

Hobby is correct. These places, especially Switzerland, are very clean and tidy. Its about personal pride. I wouldn't want to emulate the reality of Italy with rubbish dumped along the roadside and graffiti plastered over stations and stock.

Edited October 23, 2018 by Chris M

[Hobby]

Yes, parts of Hungary are like that, too!

[JohnR]

Are there any viewing figures for episode 2 yet?

 

Just up this morning on the Barb website (guess you must pay them for more up to date figures). 

 

Episode 2 got a total of 1,094,418 viewers, of whom 1,088,000 were on TV. That made it 8th that week on C5, with Paddington 24/7 moving into top slot at 1.7million. Walking Britains railways was in 12th with 977,000. 

 

Very credible result, I think, and good to see it stay above 1million viewers. 

[Phil Parker]

I always write from my point of view.

 

That much is obvious - the majority of your posts on RMweb have been in a thread for a TV show you are pre-disposed to dislike, partly because it doesn't involve your esoteric interests and partly because it isn't a format that appeals to you.

 

By the sound of it, you would be much happier with The Cakebox Challenge which is all about (mostly) non-working dioramas which can feature any railway you like including obscure foreign narrow gauge. There are also discussion threads for unusual topics on this very forum. Magazine-wise, try Narrow Gauge and Industrial. The latest issue has just arrived through my letterbox and I think it contains just the sort of modelling that might encourage you to have a go at the hobby. 

 

Not everyone is going to like this, or any other, TV show, but if you don't, just switch off. Don't waste time trying to persuade anyone to convert it from the mass-market entertainment broadcast TV does to a specialist programme that would be better in a magazine or on YouTube. This is a wide a varied hobby and no single TV programme or magazine can cover every aspect of it. 

[Robin2]

The enjoyment is in the doing and it requires a far greater range of skills than painting. For me, the modelling IS the playing. Operation is rather dull.

This seems to me to miss by a thousand miles the whole purpose of a TV program - the entertainment of others.

 

 

...R

[colin smith]

... it just seems to be missing something to lift it to a higher level, might either be the two non model railway presenters or the editing. 

 

If you're referring to kathy Millatt, she very much is a railway modeller, and a member of this forum, and has even posted on this thread!

[colin smith]

This seems to me to miss by a thousand miles the whole purpose of a TV program - the entertainment of others.

 

 

...R

 

I wasn't referring to the TV show. My comment followed a remark that a favourite model railway of mine is only a diorama and has no operating potential.

['CHARD]

If you're referring to kathy Millatt, she very much is a railway modeller, and a member of this forum, and has even posted on this thread!

 

Tim Shaw and/ or James Richardson I think he's referring to.

[colin smith]

That much is obvious - the majority of your posts on RMweb have been in a thread for a TV show you are pre-disposed to dislike, partly because it doesn't involve your esoteric interests and partly because it isn't a format that appeals to you.

 

By the sound of it, you would be much happier with The Cakebox Challenge which is all about (mostly) non-working dioramas which can feature any railway you like including obscure foreign narrow gauge. There are also discussion threads for unusual topics on this very forum. Magazine-wise, try Narrow Gauge and Industrial. The latest issue has just arrived through my letterbox and I think it contains just the sort of modelling that might encourage you to have a go at the hobby. 

 

Not everyone is going to like this, or any other, TV show, but if you don't, just switch off. Don't waste time trying to persuade anyone to convert it from the mass-market entertainment broadcast TV does to a specialist programme that would be better in a magazine or on YouTube. This is a wide a varied hobby and no single TV programme or magazine can cover every aspect of it. 

 

I'm not predisposed to dislike GMRC. I agree the format doesn't appeal to me but disagree that my interests are esoteric, unless you regard anything not OO British outline or SF as esoteric. As my first post explained, the main problem isn't the competition element, but the daft themes that work against any actual representation of real-world railways, which is what 95% of actual railway modellers try to do. I would suggest in fact that Sci-Fi and movie theme park railways are extremely esoteric and we've seen three of those.

 

As Kathy Millatt has explained on this thread, they are all OO because there was an early idea to link all the layouts together for the final. That idea was scrapped but only after all the teams had begun planning in OO. It's a shame, obviously, but they did not deliberately exclude other scales/gauges. Hopefully if there's a second series we will see a variety of scale/gauge combinations. In fact, given the track is from Peco and contestants supply their own stock, there is no obstacle to any scale and gauge being featured.

 

I have been following your blog for a while and voted in the Cakebox Challenge. My favourite was 'Long Walk Home'. I don't buy any magazines but do treat WH Smith as a browsing library. I also subscribe to several blogs, including yours, and to Model Railroad Hobbyist Magazine. 

 

It's not about whether one likes or dislikes something but about critiquing it and discussing it, finding out where it succeeds and noting where it fails. Film reviews, book groups, literary prizes, and all manner of things would be very dull if people just said they didn't like one of the entrants so didn't watch or read it. I also add that I am far from always negative. The other night I watched Trains That Changed The World on 'Yesterday' with, I admit, low expectations given the standard of most railway-related TV. On this occasion, however, I was impressed by its breath and analysis and made a positive post on a thread about the programme. 

[Georgeconna]

Lets hope there is a Layout SOS at some stage where 10's of modellers descend on an unsuspecting person who just cant get the layout working or over a particular hump. Should me good tele!

Edited October 23, 2018 by Georgeconna

[Phil Parker]

I'm not predisposed to dislike GMRC. I agree the format doesn't appeal to me but disagree that my interests are esoteric, unless you regard anything not OO British outline or SF as esoteric. As my first post explained, the main problem isn't the competition element, but the daft themes that work against any actual representation of real-world railways, which is what 95% of actual railway modellers try to do. I would suggest in fact that Sci-Fi and movie theme park railways are extremely esoteric and we've seen three of those.

 

As far as the greater British model railway world is concerned, anything other British OO and N IS esoteric. Look at what people buy and build - 50s/60s steam era with a growing interest in some later stuff. Esoteric isn't bad, I'm happy to describe my interests that way as you will have seen from my blog. Sci-fi is also esoteric, but I'm assuming that endless BR steam layouts would all look the same to the average viewer on the screen. The teams also need to be forced to be imaginative to make good telly. That has certainly come across on the show (cut up shoe dust for coal - genius!) but if everyone had been left in their comfort zones, I'm not sure it would have. 

 

There are loads of practical reasons to keep OO and stop anyone going too off-piste with their ideas. The scale is big enough to film and there is the most ready to use material. Larger scales would look better on screen but require either more build time during filming (expensive) or more pre-builds. I suspect the idea of linking the layouts together won't go away, just this will be included in the rules in the future so it is possible. That mega-layout would be quite a draw for any exhibition.

 

More importantly though, I suspect 1.2million viewers means no wholesale re-working for the format.

[Lacathedrale]

Lets hope there is a Layout SOS at some stage where 10's of modellers descend on an unsuspecting person who just can get the layout working or over a particular hump. Should me good tele!

 

Without wishing to digress too far, this would be an amazing idea - bit of a backstory about the person who started it (even with the typical daytime TV schlock of struggling working-class single mum trying to help her son get off the reefer) , a short segment on the prototype, some planning and sketching, montage of building and done - Scrapheap Challenge meets Art Attack meets model railways

[rob D2]

I'm not predisposed to dislike GMRC. I agree the format doesn't appeal to me but disagree that my interests are esoteric, unless you regard anything not OO British outline or SF as esoteric. As my first post explained, the main problem isn't the competition element, but the daft themes that work against any actual representation of real-world railways, which is what 95% of actual railway modellers try to do. I would suggest in fact that Sci-Fi and movie theme park railways are extremely esoteric and we've seen three of those.

 

As Kathy Millatt has explained on this thread, they are all OO because there was an early idea to link all the layouts together for the final. That idea was scrapped but only after all the teams had begun planning in OO. It's a shame, obviously, but they did not deliberately exclude other scales/gauges. Hopefully if there's a second series we will see a variety of scale/gauge combinations. In fact, given the track is from Peco and contestants supply their own stock, there is no obstacle to any scale and gauge being featured.

 

I have been following your blog for a while and voted in the Cakebox Challenge. My favourite was 'Long Walk Home'. I don't buy any magazines but do treat WH Smith as a browsing library. I also subscribe to several blogs, including yours, and to Model Railroad Hobbyist Magazine. 

 

It's not about whether one likes or dislikes something but about critiquing it and discussing it, finding out where it succeeds and noting where it fails. Film reviews, book groups, literary prizes, and all manner of things would be very dull if people just said they didn't like one of the entrants so didn't watch or read it. I also add that I am far from always negative. The other night I watched Trains That Changed The World on 'Yesterday' with, I admit, low expectations given the standard of most railway-related TV. On this occasion, however, I was impressed by its breath and analysis and made a positive post on a thread about the programme.

 

 

You’ve been banging your own drum for a while now. I think we get it.

They won’t change it - the format works and brings in sufficient viewers.

 

End of story really