OO wheelsets with non-pinpoint ends, do they exist?

[juke]

I'm having ongoing trouble getting my Golden Age Gresley coaches to stay on the track reliably. I use Peco Code 75 track which everything else I own has zero problem with.

 

I've done everything I can to the bogies themselves and things are better than they were but I am left that I need to replace the wheelsets with non-finescale replacements to deal with three areas of track that they can't traverse.

 

The picture shows the current axle/wheel combination and I can't see anything like it for sale. Can anyone help?

 

 

Syd

[Mark Forrest]

Assuming that the thickest part of the axle measures 2mm diameter, could you fit another make of wheel on your existing axles?

[Pete the Elaner]

If the trackwork is good enough, wheels should not need flanges to stay on. Their profiles should do that for them.

You have mentioned doing what you can to the bogies, but have not mentioned the axles. I suspect you may have included these as part of the bogie? Have you have adjusted the back-to-backs of these? That is the first thing I would check.

[Silver Sidelines]

Have you measured the distance over the axles?  I have a truck turner for cleaning out axle boxes.  I believe it originates from the States and it measures 26mm over the points and is perfect for Hornby and Bachmann stock, and some older Airfix and Mainline items fitted with Jackson wheels.

 

From a look at your pictures I would be attempting to fit some standard Hornby wheel sets (with pointed axles).

 

The other concern I might have would be with the geometry of the bogies.  Have you placed the bogies (with wheels) on a glass plates.  Are all the wheels level?  The combination of a cylindrical machined axle and matching wheel bearing does not leave much room for error.

 

I am not a serious mechanical engineer but I might be tempted to use my truck turner to open out the axle boxes and then fit needle point wheel sets from Hornby, Bachmann - your choice.

 

Cheers Ray

 

by Longsheds, on Flickr

Edited November 16, 2018 by Silver Sidelines

[juke]

Thanks for the suggestions, much appreciated.

 

I have checked the bogies and they are all perfectly square. I have one of those reamers which has been very useful many times in the past but  I would be reluctant to damage these bearings as there would be almost no chance of reversing the process as Golden Age don't answer emails at present so I can't check for spares.

 

I wouldn't rule it out if these other ideas don't work.

 

Back to backs are absolutely bang on correct on every coach.

 

I know that the flanges shouldn't be a problem but it's worth a try. If you look at the attached second pic you'll see why, to my mind, these coaches require perfect track, mine is good but does have the odd area a little  less than perfect but is all ballasted so I'm reluctant to start ripping it up, at least until I try these suggestions.

 

I have around 180 or so feet of track and 25ish points. I have also around 100 wagons, 70 coaches and maybe 70 locos and they all run without a problem except for these 8 coaches.

 

If you look at the extra pic you'll see what I think causes the problem. The bogies are attached to the towers with the screw shown and the spring then limits any movement which wouldn't be so bad except the towers are fairly wide and actually everything is quite stiff as the bogie has to pivot over the edge of that flat area. I have never seen

 

anything like it on a coach. I did work at the springs as suggested in a previous thread and it helped but didn't solve the issue quite well enough.

 

I hadn't thought of re-wheeling the axles so I checked and they are 2mm so if I can just work out how to pull the wheels it will be the first thing to try.

 

I'll get back with the results...

 

Syd

 

 

 

[Grovenor]

I would first try ditching the springs completely, and check the bogie turns freely, if neccessary ream out the hole in the bolster a tad so theres no binding on the pivot screw when the bogie needs to tilt. The wheels look just fine.

Regards

[tomparryharry]

Have you measured the distance over the axles?  I have a truck turner for cleaning out axle boxes.  I believe it originates from the States and it measures 26mm over the points and is perfect for Hornby and Bachmann stock, and some older Airfix and Mainline items fitted with Jackson wheels.

 

From a look at your pictures I would be attempting to fit some standard Hornby wheel sets (with pointed axles).

 

The other concern I might have would be with the geometry of the bogies.  Have you placed the bogies (with wheels) on a glass plates.  Are all the wheels level?  The combination of a cylindrical machined axle and matching wheel bearing does not leave much room for error.

 

I am not a serious mechanical engineer but I might be tempted to use my truck turner to open out the axle boxes and then fit needle point wheel sets from Hornby, Bachmann - your choice.

 

Cheers Ray

 

by Longsheds, on Flickr

That's an interesting little tool. Where can I buy one?

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

[Dunsignalling]

Another alternative if the wheels can't be swapped on the axles, and the end portions are 1mm dia., would be to mount the replacement wheels on some 2mm OD tube with a length of 1mm rod passing through it to fit into the bearing holes.

 

That would allow you to check if it really is the wheels causing the trouble, which I suspect not to be the case. They don't look all that much finer than current Hornby coach wheels to me. Gibson wheels are significantly "skinnier" than the ones in your photo look and they work fine on Code 75 Streamline.

 

Some of your other comments suggest to me that the real issue may lie in the bogies not being mounted loosely enough to follow your track without binding and, if that is the case, changing the wheels is unlikely to cure the derailments.

 

What I would recommend before modifying anything on the coaches is to investigate your track in the areas where the derailments occur. If you can get hold of a miniature sprit level (the sort used for setting up record turntables is ideal) or you have a phone app that does the job, check that the track is level across the rails or, on curves, that any extra height is on the outside rail.

 

John

 

EDIT: As Grovenor suggests, the solution probably lies in making the bogies flop about as much as those on coaches that do stay on the track. The best arrangement, in my experience, is to have one bogie that can rock end-to-end and the other side-to-side, which creates a sort of ersatz compensation effect.

Edited November 17, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[DCB]

I suspect the bogie springs could be the culprit. I use a very much larger washer than that strange cup shaped pivot, as a bearing when I change bogies and allow a small amount of free play ten thou or so to allow for track irregularities. 

Is there anything particular about the track they can't traverse?  Coaches with couplings on the ends and little sideplay are notorious for not liking reverse curves.

Incidentally shouldn't your buffers be retracted when using Buck eye couplers?  Thats a common cause of derailments, buffer heads touching on BR std, Bulleid and Gresley stock which used buck eyes and ran with buffer heads retracted unlike the screw coupled stock which ran with buffers touching.

[Dagworth]

if you roll the bogie along the track when it is not attached to the coach does it stay on the rails?

 

Andi

[juke]

Thanks for these latest suggestions, I will try the various ideas tomorrow later today. I agree that the wheels aren't really the problem, I'd just run out of ideas to modify the bogies and thought the deeper wheel flanges might help.

 

The track problems are - one short length appears to have one rail a tiny bit higher than the other and some of the coaches are worse than others at not being able to tilt the tiny amount without running off the track. Another length has a slight short hump in both rails and again some of the coaches can't cope. I really am talking very small differences and as I said nothing else that I run has any problems right up to max speed. Should be easy to sort but I really don't want to start digging out ballast if I can avoid it. I'm optimistic that the bogie mods, starting with spring removal may well sort things.

 

Given the price of these coaches some of the design is poor, though they are beautiful runners on the long straight sections. They have lovely corridor connections but the rivet on the couplings pivoting just below has pulled several off already, the couplings themselves aren't a patch on Kadees.

 

I never thought of retracting the buffers, I'll sort that too, though I have watched them on the tighter curves and they work well without interlocking etc. The one thing I've just remembered when running over to another track they can be temperamental, so the buffers retracted should help that.

 

Looking forward to later....

 

Syd

[juke]

if you roll the bogie along the track when it is not attached to the coach does it stay on the rails?

 

Andi

 

Just saw this, I'll check that too, thanks Andi

 

Syd

[newbryford]

That's an interesting little tool. Where can I buy one?

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

 

Not the truck tuner, but DCCconcepts have this that will do the same job.

https://www.dccconcepts.com/product/bearing-reamers-set-of-two/

 

Cheers,

Mick

[polybear]

Not the truck tuner, but DCCconcepts have this that will do the same job.

https://www.dccconcepts.com/product/bearing-reamers-set-of-two/

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

Alan Gibson does another variation:

 

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=2ahUKEwiesqT06NreAhXIK8AKHTVcBM8QFjAAegQICRAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.alangibsonworkshop.com%2FRTR%2520Drill.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2uGLl3flsQogZvr1806-ll

 

I believe the one shown in the original post is from Micro-Mark in the USA

 

https://www.micromark.com/HO-Truck-Tuner_2

 

HTH

[Silver Sidelines]

I should have said, but as oathers have already noted,  I think DCC concepts sell them now.

 

Mine came off eBay some years back.

 

That's an interesting little tool. Where can I buy one?
.

 

I have also wondered since my earlier post whether the wheels are in line.

 

This question has been asked on RMweb before..........

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/136271-golden-age-models-00-gresley-coaches/?hl=%2Bgolden+%2Bage+%2Bcoaches

 

Ray

Edited November 17, 2018 by Silver Sidelines

[Oldddudders]

 

This question has been asked on RMweb before..........

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/136271-golden-age-models-00-gresley-coaches/?hl=%2Bgolden+%2Bage+%2Bcoaches

 

Ray

I think it is the same OP, Ray.... And we can understand why!

[Guy Rixon]

It looks very much as if the bogies are locked tightly against their pivots and can't tilt to keep the wheels on the track. Instead of needing the track to be flat over the wheelbase of the bogie, it then needs to be flat over the whole length of the coach, which is infeasible.

 

One way to get round this is to let the bogies rock w.r.t the body, but only in one axis for each bogie, so that the body doesn't flop to one side. This has been proven to work in P4, so should be fine with OO flanges. It could be tried out without wrecking the models:

 

1. Take out the springs for the duration of the test.

 

2. Put double-sided tape on the bogie stretchers.

 

3. Put lengths of rod either side of the pivot on each bogie, held on by the tape. Put them along the direction of travel on one bogie and across on the other one. The rod needs to be round and its diameter needs to be roughly 1.0mm. 

 

This arrangement is OK for tests, but will put the buffers too high. If the change fixes the problem, then I suggest altering the bogie mountings on the body to get the ride-height correct. 

[Enterprisingwestern]

Given what these coaches cost in the first place, and due to them being badly engineered from the outset, I'd be inclined to send them back as not fit for purpose, or at least let the manufacturer come up with a solution.

 

Mike.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

May I suggest a systematic approach to killing off the troubles these coaches present

 

In addition to the good suggestion above about trying each bogie off the coach, run them over all the known trouble spots (since they all need to come off for that ridiculous spring on the pivot to be removed you might as well) then test each coach individually once the bogies are back on the pivots but now springless, again over all the known trouble spots. You may find that some of the pivot holes need to be opened very slightly to allow the bogies to move freely in pitch and roll for trouble free individual running.

 

Once you know all the coaches are good individually, any trouble when in a train is then down to interaction between the vehicles.

 

... They have lovely corridor connections but the rivet on the couplings pivoting just below has pulled several off already, the couplings themselves aren't a patch on Kadees.

 There are some interactions that have the potential to cause trouble. Modify as required so the couplers cannot foul the gangways.If the gangway faceplates are in contact, I would suggest dry graphite on the contacting surfaces to ensure they slip easily when required to move relative to each other.

[juke]

Given what these coaches cost in the first place, and due to them being badly engineered from the outset, I'd be inclined to send them back as not fit for purpose, or at least let the manufacturer come up with a solution.

 

Mike.

When I first realised that these coaches had problems I emailed Golden Age's owner but got no reply. His company is locked in a dispute with his bank. I think it's posted on the GA website. Someone did say they felt these were made for display/collectors, could be right!

[juke]

I'm delighted to report that removing the springs has dealt with the derailing! I don't know why I didn't think of this, I'm glad there's brains out there more practical  than mine.

 

All the replies have added various thoughts that will help me in future when thinking through track/running problems.

 

The idea for making new axles was good, luckily this time it wasn't necessary but a great idea if repairs are ever needed in the future.

 

The suggestion of using a record turntable spirit level was used and luckily I have a nice Clearaudio circular one that I ran along the troublesome areas and it was very good at showing the changes in level almost inch by inch in one stretch. It was in the area that I first laid and ballasted and I can see that I hadn't pinned it down frequently enough before ballasting. To casual observation it looks fine but the level showed it up. Luckily the bogie fix means it can stay as everything else takes it in it's stride, as these coaches do now to.

 

Only one area remains troublesome and I am going to lift it and remodel that area. It's just where a siding track rejoins the mainline on a curve, the tightest on the layout and as has been said above these couplings on the coach bodies rather than the bogies just don't seem to like that.

 

I did indeed have an earlier thread but it didn't attract many replies so I tried again, 3months of head scratching later, certainly glad I did!

 

Thank you everyone for your advice, I can't believe it's sorted. Now, on to rewiring the interior lights that I had to disconnect as the wires were stopping the bogies from turning. Then a better look at the couplers and corridor connectors.....

 

Syd

 

 

 

 

[Silver Sidelines]

Thanks Ian

 

I didn't check

 

I think it is the same OP, Ray.... And we can understand why!

 

Just because it costs more doesn't guarentee that it is any good.  Not a lot wrong with Bachmann and Hornby if you want smooth running and close coupling?

 

 

Cheers

 

Ray

Edited November 18, 2018 by Silver Sidelines

[Oldddudders]

Thanks Ian I didn't check  Just because it costs more doesn't guarentee that it is any good.  Not a lot wrong with Bachmann and Hornby if you want smooth running and close coupling.

Absolutely agree. Current coaches roll beautifully. In contrast to some beautiful BSL Bulleids I have acquired, professionally assembled, but with 1980s metal bogies which are far less co-operative.

[juke]

Thanks Ian

 

I didn't check

 

 

Just because it costs more doesn't guarentee that it is any good.  Not a lot wrong with Bachmann and Hornby if you want smooth running and close coupling?

 

 

Cheers

 

Ray

I agree, I have Bachmann Mk1s running close coupled plus Hornby some having Hornby, some Roco close couple devices, some with Keene couplers. All look and run great. I also have the Hornby Gresleys which I really like but got put off them when the more serious modellers rubbished them. When Rails got hold of these I assumed they would be 'flawless', slight mistake. I do really like them, certainly now that they are running great though I have a suspicion that they were used models, given how the lights were installed. I have not queried this and don't intend to, can't say I was even slightly pleased with Rails' reply when I got in touch with them about the derailing. Something close to 'we're very sorry, our technical department doesn't know anything about these coaches"!

 

I just read tonight someone posted a while back that they use Rocos with the uncoupler bit removed and then the coupler used upside down to raise them up, hiding them better.

 

Well pleased with the outcome of my post, thanks again to all.

 

Syd

[Silver Sidelines]

Thanks Syd

 

Good to hear that you are sorted.

 

......Well pleased with the outcome of my post, thanks again to all..

 

Sounds similar to the problem that some people experience when using R8220 couplers with Bachmann Mk1s.  On tight curves the Hornby coupler catches on the underside of the coach end stopping the bogie rotating and throwing the coach off the track.  In that case you can either shave some plastic off the coach end, or more sensibly in my opinion cut a wedge off the top of the coupler.

 

Cheers

 

Ray