BBC Four - James May's Big Trouble in Model Britain

[DonnyRailMan]

Prior to the Internet how did you all buy your railway items . Was it mostly from the local model shop

or would it be via modle railway magazines  .

[dibber25]

19 minutes ago, DonnyRailMan said:

Prior to the Internet how did you all buy your railway items . Was it mostly from the local model shop

or would it be via modle railway magazines  .

By any and all means. Model shops, yes, but not necessarily 'local' - Eames in Reading, King's Cross and Victors because they were close together, branches of Beatties. Mail order from major retailers with big mail order operations (which were usually advertised in the model press). I bought my first GWR locomotive - a Gaiety pannier tank on a H/D chassis, by mail order from Hattons. My previous Hornby-Dublo purchases had tended to be from the West End Post Office (yes!!) in Staines. (CJL)

[Kelly]

27 minutes ago, DonnyRailMan said:

Prior to the Internet how did you all buy your railway items . Was it mostly from the local model shop

or would it be via modle railway magazines  .

 

Growing up, for model railway items it was usually a small shop in Bexley, for model aircraft kits it was usually a show in Bexleyheath or sometimes the one in Welling (a short walk for a teenager).

[adb968008]

46 minutes ago, DonnyRailMan said:

Prior to the Internet how did you all buy your railway items . Was it mostly from the local model shop

or would it be via modle railway magazines  .

Ive bought model railways in a Chip Shop before now, in Costa coffee last year, Stafford services at 2am, on a station platform, anywhere really.

 

But in the past it was model shops in the 80’s almost exclusively.

I used RailMail (ad in Railway modeller) as it was cheaper but it took eons to arrive, you’d send off a postal order or a cheque, wait 2-4 weeks and it arrived. 

By the late 1980’s almost entirely swap meets, of which there was at least 3 per week around the Manchester area, Tuesday, Thursday evenings and weekends.

By 1997 I was on ebay (I lived in the US then, Hattons was one of the first online shops).

 

For selling, almost entirely at swapmeets, I started selling to dealers, but later found it easier to sell to people in the crowd carrying the box in my hand people would stop me. Later when I went to Uni, I started doing swap meet stalls myself as a uni-job. Today anything I want to exit goes to ebay.

Edited March 29, 2019 by adb968008

[Andy Hayter]

40 minutes ago, DonnyRailMan said:

Prior to the Internet how did you all buy your railway items . Was it mostly from the local model shop

or would it be via modle railway magazines  .

 

Local model shops, swap meets, model railway shows.  I don't recollect ever buying models by mail order, but I did buy precision paints that way.  An occasional meeting in the London area afforded the chance to visit Kings X models

[TheQ]

As someone living in places where there often would be no model shops ordering via the mail was what I had to do. I can remember using " the West Coast Kit Centre" a few times because the supplier would get all the bits together you needed. So I didn't have to order kit from one place, buffers from another, motor from another etc..

 

Even today if you want something finescale, you'd be lucky to find a model shop with it in stock, So the internet becomes the thing, unless it's ABS or union mills..

 

[caradoc]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Books isnt quite apt though.

like it or not, the book has been replaced by the internet.

 

 

Books have certainly not been replaced by the internet for me, and judging by the output of companies such as Book Law and Amberley Press, not for many other people either. In fact, the internet has made buying books easier. For example, although I try not to use Amazon, their book search facility is extremely efficient and last week I obtained through them two (second-hand) books I had been after for some time. And there are certain books (such as the Strathwood 'Looking Back at...' and 'Seventies Spotting Days' series that I buy without having seen a single page inside (and have not been disappointed either !)

 

[Legend]

I’m still buying books, but I am buying less and less magazines . Instead I’m on forums such as this, but more and more on YouTube, as an example New Junction put up a program on all the Hornby 66 releases yesterday which was very interesting .  I haven’t even bothered with Railway Modeler this month, my usual staple read 

[adb968008]

We’ve fallen in a rabbit hole...

 

lets reset..

 

the original statement compares second hand  railway books to model railways..

 

People upgrade their layouts, trade in old, boneyard spares, buy and sell anything from empty boxes to complete locos, not that much ends in the bin, some will circulate several times on ebay slowly being stripped to a dead carcass, and still end up returning as scrap loads in a wagon.

 

Model Railway Books arent sold for spare pages, people don’t repaint railway books, Are books routinely traded in for a newer versions ? Is it a valid comparison in a model railway context (maybe it is in ancient texts / books of centuries ago, but railway books ?).

 

Occasionally some first edition books get desirable but on the whole the only upgraded book in railways I can think of is the “Platform 5”/“Ian Allan abc” and SK Bakers rail atlas, I’ve got all mine, and my dads, going back to the 1940’s, I certainly wouldn’t bin them or trade them in.

 

I’m sure loads of old books end up in recycling, much more than model railways... model railways survive and add to the pile of plastic on ebay.

 

I suspect at some point the 70’s/80’s stuff will start to thin out and slowly disappear, leaving the more refined, but less volume produced models of the last 20-30 years, which I suspect will suffer vagaries of finesse damage, weathering and delicate electronic fatigue and thus prevent a big bubble burst of railways like other hobbies.

 

However I feel the manufacturers may struggle with the mass wide range of prototypes out there in circulation, as scope for “the next big one” declines and less people want “yet another” of the same old tooling.

 

 

Edited March 29, 2019 by adb968008

[RedgateModels]

1 hour ago, DonnyRailMan said:

Prior to the Internet how did you all buy your railway items . Was it mostly from the local model shop

or would it be via modle railway magazines  .

 

When I was a kid it was either Skills, Beatties (mostly too expensive) or the favourite was Gee Dees. All in Nottingham. Christmas and birthdays brought the HST and APT sets and holiday money was also saved and spent on stock.

 

Once I got a bit older and working/driving and I moved up into the loft with the railway I got it all from Sherwood Models, including the Millholme Ivatt tender kit that I married up to an Eames/Jameson  Midland Compound.

 

Spares were ordered mail order from Blackwells mainly. Back in the time when you could still order a new X04 motor

 

These days it's eBay, shows, occasional mail order from Hattons etc although I try to put new loco orders via Gareth at Trains4U. (0-6-0 Peckett in the pipline)

[Jol Wilkinson]

1 minute ago, adb968008 said:

We’ve fallen in a rabbit hole...

 

lets reset..

 

the original statement compares second hand  railway books to model railways..

 

People upgrade their layouts, trade in old, boneyard spares, buy and sell anything from empty boxes to complete locos, not that much ends in the bin, some will circulate several times on ebay slowly being stripped to a dead carcass, and still end up returning as scrap loads in a wagon.

 

Model Railway Books arent sold for spare pages, people don’t repaint railway books, Are books routinely traded in for a newer versions ? Is it a valid comparison in a model railway context (maybe it is in ancient texts / books of centuries ago, but railway books ?).

 

Occasionally some first edition books get desirable but on the whole the only upgraded book in railways I can think of is the “Platform 5”/“Ian Allan abc” and SK Bakers rail atlas, I’ve got all mine, and my dads, going back to the 1940’s, I certainly wouldn’t bin them or trade them in.

 

loads of old books end up in recycling, much more than model railways... they survive and add to the pile of plastic on ebay.

 

 

The comparison wasn't about books per se, but about the market place. Likewise, I wasn't making assertions but proposing a comparable scenario, that the "trade" in books was impacted by the amount coming onto the market outstripping demand, according to a number of booksellers. If fewer people are researching  and more accurately modelling the prototype, then a decline in book sales is understandable.

 

If modellers prefer to base their modelling on what the RTR manufacturers produce, or simply are interested in collecting whatever is new or fits with some "collection" preference, then models will still be bought and sold through the various channels. However, some hold the view that the number of model railway buyers is in decline, for a variety of reasons. If that is so, then fewer people each need to buy more to sustain the RTR industry at present levels (and with more players coming into the market). Could a saturation point be reached, as appears to be so with books? 

 

 

[MarkSG]

3 hours ago, DonnyRailMan said:

Prior to the Internet how did you all buy your railway items . Was it mostly from the local model shop

or would it be via modle railway magazines  .

 

Mostly shops, although not necessarily local. There were a couple of model shops in Bury St Edmunds (the nearest town with any model shops to where I lived), that I used fairly often. But if I ever found myself anywhere else with a model shop, I'd make a point of dropping in to visit it if possible.

I did buy some stuff via mail order from the adverts in Railway Modeller, but not all that much. 

[caradoc]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

We’ve fallen in a rabbit hole...

 

lets reset..

 

the original statement compares second hand  railway books to model railways..

 

People upgrade their layouts, trade in old, boneyard spares, buy and sell anything from empty boxes to complete locos, not that much ends in the bin, some will circulate several times on ebay slowly being stripped to a dead carcass, and still end up returning as scrap loads in a wagon.

 

Model Railway Books arent sold for spare pages, people don’t repaint railway books, Are books routinely traded in for a newer versions ? Is it a valid comparison in a model railway context (maybe it is in ancient texts / books of centuries ago, but railway books ?).

 

 

Thanks, that clarifies things !

 

4 hours ago, DonnyRailMan said:

Prior to the Internet how did you all buy your railway items . Was it mostly from the local model shop

or would it be via modle railway magazines  .

 

Mostly from my local model shops in Oxford, Howes and the Railway Bookshop. Occasionally, while still at school, me and a classmate would club together to buy bargains from Hattons and and save on the postage (every penny counted then !), and later we made a special trip to C.A.B. in Northampton (anyone remember them ?) to get stuff on special offer.

 

[Pacific231G]

4 hours ago, DonnyRailMan said:

Prior to the Internet how did you all buy your railway items . Was it mostly from the local model shop

or would it be via modle railway magazines  .

As a youngster it was Howes in Broad Street Oxford though I was more into Airfix and Meccano. When I started again as an adult I first got into American H0, inspired by my first trip there as a student, so mostly bought from Victors (I still remember that distinctive aroma of new Athearn and Roundhouse freight car kits!) After that my interests turned to NG, then French NG, then French SG.

AFAIR quite a lot of my original H0e stock, mostly Lilliput and based on Austrian 760mm prototypes,  also came from Victors but, if you have somewhat non-mainstream interests, specialist societies are worth their weight in gold, Much of what I now have has come directly or via contacts in the 009 and SNCFS/French Railways Society and their second hand stands at get togethers. Apart from that most of the rest comes from club second hand tables at exhibtions (which sometimes yield real bargains!) traders at shows and personal sales. I've also bought a few very specialised things, such as brass castings, at specialist shows in France and from one particular online trader there who makes some very useful after market items some of which I helped beta test for him.

I used to buy my mainly Peco track from local model shops- particularly Harrow before it closed- though that apart the average local shop has never stocked very much of what I needed. 

 

Most of what I no longer have has also been disposed of through society second hand tables and private sales.  I'm still to get into online selling using eBay etc. One day I'll have a real cull!!

Edited March 29, 2019 by Pacific231G

[Phil Parker]

6 hours ago, adb968008 said:

like it or not, the book has been replaced by the internet.

 

6 hours ago, adb968008 said:

i for one dumped my CD, Tape, VHS, DVD, LP collection nigh on 10 years ago.  As my slide collection was corroding I digitised that 100k I ages ten years back too.

 

Essentially, you are extrapolating from your own behaviour without bothering to let facts get in the way. Print book sales role last year. The also rose in the UK.

 

There are ever more books being produced for railway enthusiasts too - unless the publishers are burning money, someone must be buying them.

 

If you are going to quote "facts" as you have done several times in this discussion (e.g "today the swapmeets is dead and gone"), would it be too much trouble to ask that you also quote sources? 

[adb968008]

Apologies Phil, it is my personal opinion, I thought I was clear, but apparently not.

Edited March 29, 2019 by adb968008

[jjb1970]

I think books still have a future, both in printed form and E-books. I have found that E-Books have if anything increased the number of books I buy as what I tend to find is that if it is a book I like then I buy a working copy on Kindle and also buy a printed copy for my library. I think books have something in common with magazines in that to have a future they have to offer something more than you can find on the Internet. I don't buy magazines for news or reviews, to buy a magazine now I expect articles and information which add something and which is not just freely available on the Web. I still buy Modern Railways as I do find the quality of articles from their old geezers adds something worth paying for. One problem with many railway books (in my opinion) was they were just picture albums, I never really got the point of that type of book.

[Captain Kernow]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Apologies Phil, it is my personal opinion, I thought I was clear, but apparently not.

 

With respect, it didn't come across like that, rather it did seem like a 'statement of fact'.

 

Whatever your views on the usefulness of the printed page and books in particular (verses the internet), I was pleased to see Phil mention the increase in sales of printed works.

 

I would ask you to deny the very real pleasures (experienced by many people) of sitting down and reading a good book, especially some of the quality railway publications currently available.

 

The delight of opening a brand new book, the anticipation of what you will find inside and even the smell of the glossy printed pages.

 

I would recommend a visit to a specialist transport bookshop (admittedly there aren't as many as there used to be, but they do still exist) and experience the pleasure and excitement at being confronted with a huge range of titles, offering so much potential for research, information and pleasure.

 

Also, don't forget that the internet isn't necessarily accessible to everyone, to the same degree. There are some people with medical conditions (I'm not referring to partially-sighted people, which is another thing again), for whom excessive staring at a computer (or phone, tablet etc.) screen can be detrimental to their health (triggering migraines, for example). As such, they must ration their time using display screen equipment. Books tend not to present the same kind of problem in that regard.

 

Edited March 29, 2019 by Captain Kernow

[The Stationmaster]

4 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

The comparison wasn't about books per se, but about the market place. Likewise, I wasn't making assertions but proposing a comparable scenario, that the "trade" in books was impacted by the amount coming onto the market outstripping demand, according to a number of booksellers. If fewer people are researching  and more accurately modelling the prototype, then a decline in book sales is understandable.

 

If modellers prefer to base their modelling on what the RTR manufacturers produce, or simply are interested in collecting whatever is new or fits with some "collection" preference, then models will still be bought and sold through the various channels. However, some hold the view that the number of model railway buyers is in decline, for a variety of reasons. If that is so, then fewer people each need to buy more to sustain the RTR industry at present levels (and with more players coming into the market). Could a saturation point be reached, as appears to be so with books? 

 

 

Although more widely than r-t-r the comparison goes a bit further.  Unbuilt kits, especially from 'good' manufacturers tend to get high prices.  But completed kits, even to a fair standard, which can supply a host of parts such as quality (think Portescap etc) motors and things like r Romford wheels and axles can also fall into the 'box of railway books' part of the market.  A while back i saw a lot of a dozen kit built 0-6-0 tank engines go for well under £100 yet for motors, wheels, and axles alone they would have been a little gold mine if you wanted their size of driving wheel.  A 'boxed lot' I picked up at auction for under £50 contained 2 part built loco kits with a completed chassis (Romfords and etched valvegear), including a Portescap motor, for one of them and the chassis parts for the other plus a completed and somewhat modified K's kit (K's motor but a good runner!) and another completed kit which was a lousy runner plus numerous useful parts and materials.

 

So even buying for spares etc can see some top rate bargains; or putting it another way some giveaway prices.

[Bernard Lamb]

20 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Books isnt quite apt though.

like it or not, the book has been replaced by the internet.

 

 

 

That sound like a statement of fact to me.

I have spent many hours at Kew in recent years digging out information for various authors.

When the books were published they seemed to sell rather well.

One went into a reprint and the information gathered on one particular subject within that book led to a monogram on that subject.

This also sold very well.

They are railway related books.

In the last couple of years I have been involved with a publisher of local history and art books.

These have also sold rather well and have been nominated fro awards in a couple of cases.

At every book launch the venue has been packed and there has been no problem in getting backing from major companies to help with promotion.

From where I sit there is a very large market for books. In particular those on specialised subjects.

Most of the material is not available on the internet.

When you start on a research project you will soon find out just how much available material is, for various reasons, not on line.

Bernard

 

[Edwardian]

If more hobbyists bought and read books, they would be better informed about the prototypes of the models they buy.  I am sure many do, but I suspect that many others don't.

 

If you are scratch-building or wrestling a particular prototype from a kit, you probably need to read around your subject a little. If you are buying RTR, you can get lazy and assume that all that research was done for you, and correctly, by the people who produced the model. In assuming that, your faith will not always be well-placed, and, so, any announcement of an RTR subject in which I am interested prompts a bout of reading up on it; but that's another issue. 

 

The point is that there is no substitute for, or shortcut to, knowing your prototype, and, by and large, you will not find what you need on the internet.  You'll find it in a book, and the great benefit if the internet in this area is not as a repository of the information you need, but as the place to find the book you need to read.

 

These are not the cheap albums of 1950s photographs; good books on locomotives and rolling stock command solid prices both new and second-hand. Though depending upon the railway company concerned, you are quite likely to find it's in a book that's been out of print for years. These tend to start at the £25 mark and some are harder and and more costly to come by than others.   Even some of the little RCTS volumes can be expensive and/or hard to find; building up a complete set of the GW ones has been the work of some years for me.  As a recent example, I had to lie in wait for 3-4 years before spotting a copy of the large Bradley volume on LSW Adams classes for under £50, which I finally achieved last year.

 

Fortunately, in some areas, works of the quality and detail a modeller requires are still being produced, witness Vols 1&2 of the excellent LB&SCR carriage books published in recent years (vols 3 & 4 still to come). But, then again, for me, reading and research is half the fun. Possibly I'm just a bit weird in that, but, if so, I feel I'm in good company. 

 

 

[Islesy]

Books are subject to almost as many errors as you will find on t’internet and many statements have been made in print that have not been challenged or corrected. The key to effective research is utilise your sources properly and to carefully cross check facts, with proper reference to contemporary photographs.

[Ian J.]

Even the official documentation that books often use as their source can have errors, so cross-checking and confirming via independent secondary sources is always necessary for good quality research, but not always possible if there is only one source.

[south_tyne]

19 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

However, some hold the view that the number of model railway buyers is in decline, for a variety of reasons. If that is so, then fewer people each need to buy more to sustain the RTR industry at present levels (and with more players coming into the market). Could a saturation point be reached, as appears to be so with books? 

 

I think you are right but it could be a number of years before this happens. There is clearly no market for second hand books now, a result of the explosion of mass publication of railway books from the 1970s onwards in large print runs. 

 

The last 20 years have seen mass buying and collecting of RTR models from a generation of folk that have had a greater level of disposable income, more leisure time through healthier and longer-lived retirements. I suppose I mean those born post-war trough the 1950s (my dad's generation!). Very naively, and no doubt simplistically, there is going to become a point in the next 10 to 20 years when there are masses of stuff from recent times that will need to be disposed of, not to put too fine or morbid a point on things, this generation of modellers go to make their maker.... The modelling hobby will contract and there will be less folk interested, although it certainly isn't going to die out, and I wonder where the market will be for these second hand models? Those who collected lots of stuff in the post-2000 boon years, when Hornby, Bachmann, Heljan etc were really shovelling out new models, made the most of (relatively) cheaper prices but surely there will be a saturation of the market leading to limited sell-on potential and low re-same prices.

 

I've no doubt my thinking is probably too simplistic but surely the RTR aspect of the hobby has peaked...

[Edwardian]

No one source of information is wholly reliable.  GAs may be a better source than modellers' drawings, but may not show everything, so must be cross-referenced with numerous photographs. The real thing, as preserved, can also be an unreliable guide at times. Even with all sources available and all the research in place, it would seem that mistakes can still be made.

 

My post was talking about educating oneself as a hobbyist concerning the prototype. I am not a RTR manufacturer, but speaking from the point of view of someone who sees the benefit of understanding his subject a little better, and for whom books are, therefore, ideal as they provide context, history and development as well as drawings and photographs of specific prototypes.  Besides which, the context of my earlier post was the contention that the internet has taken over from books.  In this field, no it has not.